Advice on contamination in bottle cond. brews.

[FarmBoy530]

So I'm sitting here several months into the new year, thinking about the last handful of brews I've made. In the last 3 brews at least, maybe even 5, something has gone wrong... All the beers I speak of were bottled except one (which had a different problem) which was kegged. All the beers were all grain recipes which I'm not new to. And all tasted at great if not wonderful at bottling time. All beers (besides my kegged exception) were primed with DME which has worked for me in the past. The problem is, after letting my bottles condition for 6 weeks it seems to have acquired and off flavor. The flavor is hard to describe but unpleasant to say the least. My original thought was to do a few extract batches to see if I end up with the same flavor, but I'm thinking more now its something happening around bottling time. Maybe a contaminated bottling bucket? I mix my iodophor and use fresh at 16ppm (1ml/qt) Which is stronger then min. and still safe to drip dry. I primarily apply with a spray bottle. To say the very very least, I have been brewing for years and am now discouraged. Has anyone chased a rabbit like this and have so advice on where to start? I'm looking to change tubing, faucets, and bottling bucket, any other ideas? Its so sad when you start brewing poor beer without changing your system...

 

[Piratwolf]

I feel your pain.

First time that happened to me, it turned out to be the CFC I got from a buddy. I got so discouraged I nearly quit brewing. But eventually I replaced all my tubing, cleaned & sanitized all my containers (buckets & carboys), then went back to the old ice bath chill technique to isolate the newest change.

I just went through round two, but this time it was the yeast I repitched. That was easy b/c it was the only common element in the beers infected.

Stay strong! Just go through each step & ingredient, looking to isolate anything that sticks out. Seems like bottling bucket is a good place to start!

 

[FarmBoy530]

I've been brewing for so long I'm nowhere near quitting, just so discouraged to and frustrated. So much money and time with nothing to show.. What was wrong with your chiller? Scratches holding bacteria?

 

[william_shakes_beer]

to the OP; do you sanitize your bucket valve, racking cane/autosiphon and filling wand?

 

[broadbill]

I'm not convinced you have an infection at all. Here is what I'd do:

Try corn sugar instead of DME--see if off-flavor goes away.
Try different sanitizer instead of iodophor--see if off-flavor goes away.
Try different bottling bucket setup-sse if off-flavor goes away.

I'd do it in that order.

 

[duboman]

I'm not convinced you have an infection at all. Here is what I'd do:

Try corn sugar instead of DME--see if off-flavor goes away.
Try different sanitizer instead of iodophor--see if off-flavor goes away.
Try different bottling bucket setup-sse if off-flavor goes away.

I'd do it in that order.

+1 to all these suggestion. In addition you stated that you are spraying each bottle and I would recommend soaking, first in Oxy or PBW to thoroughly clean and then in Star San. Use a 5 Gallon bucket and simply submerge the bottles. In addition be sure you are sanitizing your caps and use the Oxygen Caps.

I doubt it's an infection as you did not state you are getting gushers.

 

[broadbill]

I doubt it's an infection as you did not state you are getting gushers.

Bingo. The fact the OP was pretty nonchalant about this off-flavor makes me think the same thing. Infected beers tend to be not very palatable.

 

[FarmBoy530]

. The flavor is hard to describe but unpleasant to say the least.

To me its try the beer again drink half, yup still bad, dump the rest. Not even close to enjoyable, yet not imposable to choke down.. And 4 different beers have the SAME OFF FLAVOR. Different beers, with different ingredients including yeast.

to the OP; do you sanitize your bucket valve, racking cane/autosiphon and filling wand?

Of course I do. Like i stated, I've been brewing for years and this is something new. And I haven't changed my procedures.

I'm not convinced you have an infection at all. Here is what I'd do:

Try corn sugar instead of DME--see if off-flavor goes away.
Try different sanitizer instead of iodophor--see if off-flavor goes away.
Try different bottling bucket setup-sse if off-flavor goes away.

I'd do it in that order.

I plan on doing this as well but I don't think its the iodophor as I've been using it correctly for years without changing. same goes for dme prime. The thing that makes me think infection is, again, very different beers, same off flavor in all.

In addition you stated that you are spraying each bottle.

I doubt it's an infection as you did not state you are getting gushers.

I didnt state I sprayed each bottle, I spray soak my bits and pieces on brew day. For bottles I start with clean rinsed bottles, they go in the dishwasher for 3 full cycles. All full wash (no soap) with a sani rinse and dry. but this should have been mentioned in the original post.
And lastly, I don't believe all infections ruin beer or make gushers. This highly depends on type of infection.

I'm not trying to deny some good advice, But I do think its and infection and I don't think we've got it yet. The other option is maybe oxidation seeing as its showing up 6 weeks after bottling. But I strive to eliminate this in at least my last batch with no change in off flavor. It stinks to have 4+ cases of beer sitting around that you don't want to drink yourself..

 

[mjohnson]

Just a thought, as you experiment, perhaps make half batches until you have the issue figured out.

I had one batch that was bad. I don't think it was infected with bacteria. I think it was a random yeast. It ended up over-carbed and thin with an odd twangy flavor. Not undrinkable, but not fun to drink either. Ended up dumping it. I never figured out what happened. Subsequent beers were ok.

 

[Piratwolf]

I've been brewing for so long I'm nowhere near quitting, just so discouraged to and frustrated. So much money and time with nothing to show.. What was wrong with your chiller? Scratches holding bacteria?

Yup. I changed out the connector hoses, Oxycleaned it 3x with scalding hot water, then flushed it 3x with StarSan. Good to go!

Dumb question, I think, but just trying to rule stuff out--do you temp control your fermentations? I had a weird, faint, back of palate off flavor that didn't stop til I started using temp control & liquid yeast. Just thought i'd mention it.

 

[SouthBay]

And 4 different beers have the SAME OFF FLAVOR. Different beers, with different ingredients including yeast.

Do you use city water? Maybe something new has been added to the city water and it's affecting the brew? What style were the beers that didnt turn out?

 

[adamjab19]

I have been having the same problem too on and off. My last beer was good for about 3-4 months or so and at that point it slowly started turning into a gusher. I came across a couple beers that I had for about 2 years and those gushed immediately but I do have a have a belgian golgen strong ale that is still perfect after a couple of years.... I am almost sure it comes down to a rushed bottling session and needing some new plastic equipment.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[FarmBoy530]

I do temp control the room, not the beer with a thermal well. I use a heater (indirectly) set on a thermostat (or fridge). I don't use city water, filtered well water. The water is hard, but the filter should remove a good % of that. I'm not gushing either. But I'll tell you what. I'll taste one tonight and add my notes, maybe this flavor I'm having trouble describing can be worked out..

 

[SouthBay]

I brew on well water that runs through a filter too. I had an off taste in all of my brews that weren't stouts, and found it had everything to do with water chemistry, not an infection. Hopefully it's that simple for you too!

 

[FarmBoy530]

Not a bad point! Some beers are good (IPA's and PA's) with hard water due to they're hop interaction.
With such specific water, as I have, this could be the ticket!
Maybe not even close...Who knows without trying..!
These are the things I'm trying to pin point.
Things that are obvious (that I've been doing for years because most of it is common practice.) like "do you sanitize? Are good questions in nature, but they're just that. Obvious. Water chem. is something I know just a little about. As a brewer, it was like the next step. This to me is something to look more into. If any one else has info on this, PLEASE help with some input.
Also anything that could lead to any kind of off flavor that could be easily overlooked could help!
Since someone asked, The beers off the top of my head that helped contribute to this flavor I've become so aware of, are; A pale ale, an oatmeal stout, a marijuana seed nut brown, and a golden rye ale. Again, all tasted wonderful, and I was very excited at bottling time. Around 4 to 6 weeks in, BAM! Even if it was in a small amount, there was this flavor I was coming to dislike so much!
At this point I have a place to start, and a couple things to try.
If anyone thinks they have something worth trying however, PLEASE COMMENT, I'm up for any possibility's.

 

[adamjab19]

One more thing: the BEST beer I ever made, like the one that I was going to start a brewery with if I could, I used bottle water for. Sorry can't offer more of the chemistry side of things.

 

[thisone]

Soak your bottles in your sanitizing solution for 20 minutes (I use idopher)

Its only been 6 weeks since I've started doing that, but I've seen a huge improvement because I used to have that problem too

 

[GRodriguez]

As I read through, I started to wonder about the water angle as well. I can speak a little bit about water chemistry, but not with regard to brewing... only with regard to keeping a swimming pool clear.

You mentioned you're on a well, so it may be worth peeking at the plumbing all the way back to the source. How is the water tasting/smelling at the tap? Is it the same it's always been? How's the condition of the pressure tank? Is something corroding somewhere? Are your lines PEX? Copper? CPVC?

If you suddenly are getting metals in your water there are ways to treat that for pools. I doubt it's anything you'd want to add to your brewing ingredients, but maybe a filter is out there that can help you out. Hopefully someone smarter than me will come along this thread shortly.

I'm interested in how this turns out for you. I'm on city water now, but SWMBO and I have been on the prowl for a country home for a couple years. I've wondered how the switch to well water would affect my brewing.

Good luck, amigo.

 

[FarmBoy530]

I think my filter would be getting out metal and the hardness out. The water tank is clean and only a bout a year old. My water is great and clear and smells like nothing. I'm starting to think now that its the dishwasher... even though its on a sani wash/rinse cycle, and I do it 3 times without soap. I wonder if there could be some risidual jet dry or something. I think this is where I'm going to start! The water issue shouold help tune a beer, but I think I've brewed good beer with this water so I'll work on that 2nd.

 

[FarmBoy530]

My ball valves are lead free brass from the plumbing store, porb. not food safe though. any thoughts on this and possibility of contamination seeing how they're getting older now?
Well not ALL of em. just the one on my mash tun.

 

[SouthBay]

How often do you change the water filter? If it's not regularly, a lot of filters lose effectiveness within a year or two.

I'm thinking maybe try a small brew using only RO water. worst case scenario is that you rule out water chem. Best case is that you solve your problem

 

[FarmBoy530]

Agreed, I just need to choose where to start. Any starting point will do as u suggest. If i do 2 changes at once I wont know the problem for sure.

 

[GRodriguez]

I wouldn't count on a filter being able to take metals out of your water. For swimming pools there are filters available that can take particles out down to 3 -4 microns. But even if you have such a filter, to remove metals reuqires addition of a flocculant which will bind to the particles and settle out to the bottom. Then you have to vacuum that stuff straight out to waste (and not into your filter).

If you take a sample of your tap water to a pool store, they'll be able to run a complete analysis of it, as well as check for metals.

I'm not saying this is your problem. I just think it's premature to rule out something in the water simply because you're running it through a filter. Heck, there could be a new bacteria that showed up in the aquifer your well taps... and I don't think filters can necessarily remove something like that.

 

[Etu001]

I'm obviously new to this, but wouldn't using bottled water be a good "control" to see if its a water issue.

 

[medusa1066]

This wouldn't happen to be a burnt rubber/band aid type of flavor would it (esp. when belching)? I have been chasing this off flavor. Chloramines (Campden Tablet) or possible wild yeast infection. I replaced my bottling bucket, it was scratched to hell.

 

[FarmBoy530]

Its premature to rule anything out. I just have to choose where to start. I have a feeling the water didn't change suddenly. Not that it cant. I just think there are other good variables that are a bigger red light to me. The dishwasher I think is number one. This would explain the kegged beer being ok.Try number 2 (if 1 doesn't work) is changing tubing and bottling bucket. Then water chem/metals. And so on. I don't have the packaging for my filter anymore, but I think it was a 2 or 3 micron filter. I recalling it saying it helps remove calcium and I thought iron. Which are my problems. But Again, I have brewed good beer on this water before. Also if it were water wouldn't i detect the flavor at bottling time?

 

[medusa1066]

I think it will help you to try and nail down the flavor. This might help some, but I feel that the explanations of the specific off-flavor are not all inclusive of what it actually could be.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/if-your-beer-smells-like-term-source-may-137353/

Take it to a homebrew club to get some opinions. Or ship it to someone on here