Advice on Ambers/Red IPAs

[Onthebrew]

1)The last Few dark ambers/ red IPA have come out much more dryer than intended. Anyone had this issue. Anyone have a suggestion to remedy it?

2) the last one had smokey undertones. Not sure where that come from?

These are from various clone recipes but all on the dark side of amber and Generously hopped with various US and NZ hops. Tried English and US yeasts. All have one thing in common - the extra dry finish. I’ve tried mashing higher at 155f (68c) . Same result.

I’m a bit stumped. Is it the dark malts? I’ve used carafe twice and regular dark once. is it the hops? Is it process? Mash PH has been on target and after is balanced profile.

 

[RM-MN]

Factors in how dry a beer becomes include mash temperature and yeast selection. Some yeasts are beasts and want to ferment every sugar, others leave more behind. There are also ways to end up with a higher FG like adding Carapils which is primarily unfermentable sugars.

Now tell us a little more. What was the OG and FG? Sample recipe? Thermometer calibration? You might be mashing lower than you think.

 

[Onthebrew]

All beers were in the range below

og 1050 fg 1012. Give or take a point or two.

us o5 or liberty bell yeasts

mash temps correct although first 5 mins of mash could be lower as the all in one sytem balalances out. But this is the same with all beers and it’s just my dark beers coming out over dry.

two of the recipes are brew dog. 5am Saint and slot machine. The other ill try and post. I’ve brewed all beers before with no issues, it’s just over the last 6 months.

 

[JoeSpartaNJ]

All beers were in the range below

og 1050 fg 1012. Give or take a point or two.

us o5 or liberty bell yeasts

mash temps correct although first 5 mins of mash could be lower as the all in one sytem balalances out. But this is the same with all beers and it’s just my dark beers coming out over dry.

two of the recipes are brew dog. 5am Saint and slot machine. The other ill try and post. I’ve brewed all beers before with no issues, it’s just over the last 6 months.

I had the same problem with the Anvil. The temperature probe is "calibrated" to measure the temperature in the middle of the mash.

After 2 years, I decided to test it as all my beers were over attenuating. The temperature of the mash was almost 10 degrees cooler at the top, or as deep as my pen thermometer could reach. So for the first 10 minutes, thinking I was mashing at 152. it was almost 142. Makes a big difference with attenuation. All my beers were over attenuating. Most finishing around 1.006 or 1.008. Although 1.012 is not all that bad in your case.

I had noticed that the temp reading on the Anvil never dropped while mashing in, so I never used a dough in temperature........I was wrong.

Make sure your dough in temperature is correct, and the top of the mash measures your calculated mash temperature.

I have also found that 60 minute mash really isnt necassary. I have been doing 35 minutes (45 miuntes while the temp ramps up) with a 10 minute mash-out. I average 72% BH efficiency. (I am also not an efficiency chaser.)


Since making this correction, the beers have returned to within normal attenuation range. In my experience, US-05 always gets around 85% attenuation.

Hope this helps.

 

[NSMikeD]

Fwiw, I just brewed an Irish Red Ale that I was very very pleased with the balance of malt and dryness. I do agree with the mash temp (my recirculating pump and my stirring every 20 minutes helps to keep an even heat,

While I took steps to showcase the malt, I also knew by using SafeAle US-05, I would be leaning to the dry crisp side of things. So I'll share some notes on this batch that I think relate to why this beer found that balance.

I used an English Ale water profile and hit a Ph of 5.62 (the high side of pH target). I think these two factors lean to malt forward taste. Mashed at 153° single infusion.

94% Marris Otter pale
3% Crystal 90°L
3% Roasted Barley 300°L

I think these to adjuncts might explain the balance from between sweet chewy and dry crisp finish. Not sure that the Maris Otter plays a role other than adding bit of bread flavor which I prefer with across the pond styles.


Fuggles 4% 60 minute This is a malt forward recipe and so no flavor or late addition hops in line with English ale styles. I am not sure what affect flavor and aroma hops have on yeast with regard to "dry" taste, so I resisted the temptation to do the American thing and add hops everywhere.

I pitched and fermented at 65°- 68° with SafeAle. 04 and Nottingham are my go to yeast for English malt forward beers but an Irish Ale should gave a touch of dryness, so I thought 05 with that roasted barley would provide that balance for the otherwise malt foward recipe.


It's possible I overthought things and I could be wrong with my assumptions, but when I poured that first glass last night, it was clear that int was neither malty nor dry and yet both. A malt forward beer with a touch of a slightly dry finish. Taste is subjective and it's also possible your taste buds may be more sensitive to a dry finish, but hopefully this may help.



The Irish Red Ale

 

[Onthebrew]

Cheers, I’ll read through these two later and respond

 

[Onthebrew]

I had the same problem with the Anvil. The temperature probe is "calibrated" to measure the temperature in the middle of the mash.

After 2 years, I decided to test it as all my beers were over attenuating. The temperature of the mash was almost 10 degrees cooler at the top, or as deep as my pen thermometer could reach. So for the first 10 minutes, thinking I was mashing at 152. it was almost 142. Makes a big difference with attenuation. All my beers were over attenuating. Most finishing around 1.006 or 1.008. Although 1.012 is not all that bad in your case.

I had noticed that the temp reading on the Anvil never dropped while mashing in, so I never used a dough in temperature........I was wrong.

Make sure your dough in temperature is correct, and the top of the mash measures your calculated mash temperature.

I have also found that 60 minute mash really isnt necassary. I have been doing 35 minutes (45 miuntes while the temp ramps up) with a 10 minute mash-out. I average 72% BH efficiency. (I am also not an efficiency chaser.)


Since making this correction, the beers have returned to within normal attenuation range. In my experience, US-05 always gets around 85% attenuation.

Hope this helps.

With the BM the temp probe is next to heater at the bottom so after mashing in in gets hot at the bottom and cooler at the top, but usually after 5 mins it’s balanced out as it circulated through the mash pipe a few times. however I dont have an issue with pale ales, it’s just my dark ales coming out dry?

 

[Onthebrew]

Nottingham are my go to yeast for English malt forward beers but an Irish Ale should gave a touch of dryness, so I thought 05

Isn’t nottingham super dry?

looks a tasty brew. That balance sounds great, and quite a simple malt bill. Ironically I’m in Ireland but much prefer american amber ales to Irish reds.

 

[NSMikeD]

Isn’t nottingham super dry?

looks a tasty brew. That balance sounds great, and quite a simple malt bill. Ironically I’m in Ireland but much prefer american amber ales to Irish reds.

Could be, Maybe it's the fruity character I equate to less dry. Fermentis has it pretty far along the fruity (estery?) side of it's flavor circle charts, as opposed to 05 which is right on the neutral line.

Funny about your preference to American Amber. On this side of the pond hopped up beers are everywhere (even the main stream supermarket shelves) so I tend to include some of the European classics in my home brew as a change of pace.

 

[RM-MN]

With the BM the temp probe is next to heater at the bottom so after mashing in in gets hot at the bottom and cooler at the top, but usually after 5 mins it’s balanced out as it circulated through the mash pipe a few times. however I dont have an issue with pale ales, it’s just my dark ales coming out dry?

How much of your mash conversion has happened in those 5 minutes where the mash is cooler at the top? You may be surprised if you were to check that.

 

[NSMikeD]

With the BM the temp probe is next to heater at the bottom so after mashing in in gets hot at the bottom and cooler at the top, but usually after 5 mins it’s balanced out as it circulated through the mash pipe a few times. however I dont have an issue with pale ales, it’s just my dark ales coming out dry?

So the darker the roast the more dry and the more bitter the beer will be. But I think there are other factors that trick our taste buds. For example, Guiness is a dry light (abv) beer, however because of that mouthfeel from the hard water, so many people perceive its as a heavy and creamy and cannot accept it's ABV is just 4.2% less than bud and less calories.

That Red Ale recipe I posted screams of being a dry beer. But since that hop schedule permits the malt to be more forward , the yeast (even though being dry) accents the fruity esters, and the Marris Otter has a "bready" flavor, it does not, to me, come off as a extra dry dispute the roasted. It clearly has a dry finish. but so much more is going on that it balances.

So I would suggest play around with hop schedules and water hardness to tweak the profiles to be closer to your liking and offset the bitterness and dryness of the darker malts.

as for temps, It's a good idea to calibrate your thermometers or verify them with a second calibrated thermometer from time to time. I stick my Maverick Pro Temp in my Anvil every once on the while to get a second reading peace of mind.

 

[Onthebrew]

Could be, Maybe it's the fruity character I equate to less dry. Fermentis has it pretty far along the fruity (estery?) side of it's flavor circle charts, as opposed to 05 which is right on the neutral line.

Funny about your preference to American Amber. On this side of the pond hopped up beers are everywhere (even the main stream supermarket shelves) so I tend to include some of the European classics in my home brew as a change of pace.

Same this side, although where a few years ago you’d find all sorts pales, IPAs, stouts, sours, Belgium’s and lagers in our local craft pubs, last time I was in 10 of the 14 on offer were hazy IPAs of some description or other so yeah really miss the variation too.

in terms of Home brewing I find it easier To brew hop forward styles and they usually come out well, but none of my English bitters come out that good. Luckily american style craft ales are super expensive to buy so I save some money there By home brewing and english ales are relatively cheap so I tend to drink commercial ones rather than brew them. That’s why I like american ambers. They come out better than british bitters for me, and they seem to have gone out of fashion commercially now so have to brew my own.

 

[Onthebrew]

How much of your mash conversion has happened in those 5 minutes where the mash is cooler at the top? You may be surprised if you were to check that.

Not sure how to check it, other than take a Gravity sample?

But as it doesn’t happen with pales I think it’s as Mike alluded to above, a combination of dark malts and high hopping rates could be the issue. My next amber will be less red IPA and more malt focused I think. no carafa just crystal malts

anyone got a good recipe? Something on the lighter side of amber similar to an ESB in colour. Probably with centennial, Amarillo and or cascade.

 

[JoeSpartaNJ]

How much of your mash conversion has happened in those 5 minutes where the mash is cooler at the top? You may be surprised if you were to check that.

That is exactly what was happening to me with the Anvil. I find most conversion is done in 20 minutes (I mash high)

 

[RM-MN]

Not sure how to check it, other than take a Gravity sample?

Iodine will turn blue in a starch. Put a drop on a white surface, then scoop out a little of the grain (very little, like 1/10th of a teaspoon or less). Drop it onto the iodine.

I'd probably start with several drops in different places so I could do several samples. Try one as soon as you get the grains stirred in, then one every minute until the circulation gets the temperature stabilized.

 

[Onthebrew]

Unfortunately not very practical with the Braumeister as the grain is locked in the malt pipe.

 

[Onthebrew]

anyone got a good recipe? Something on the lighter side of amber similar to an ESB in colour. Probably with centennial, Amarillo and or cascade.

Just pushing this again, looking for a good recipe for an American amber ale on the lighter side( no roasty flavours)

 

[grampamark]

Just pushing this again, looking for a good recipe for an American amber ale on the lighter side( no roasty flavours)

This is a slightly “lighter” version of the American Amber that I brew. It might be close to what your looking for.

 

[Onthebrew]

This is a slightly “lighter” version of the American Amber that I brew. It might be close to what your looking for.
View attachment 813559

Interesting. Looks a bit heavy on the Munich, almost like a festival ale? And choc malt over carafa, are they interchangeable or do do prefer the chocolate malt?

 

[doug293cz]

Are you going hop heavy and getting "hop creep"?

https://www.brewersassociation.org/educational-publications/hop-creep-technical-brief/https://beerandbrewing.com/the-causes-and-effects-hop-creep-and-how-to-prevent-it/https://byo.com/article/hop-creep/
Brew on

 

[Onthebrew]

Don’t think so as FG was 1013. Gonna look into this though

 

[Mark3885]

Grampamark,I just jotted down the lighter amber recipe. Does it have a name? Going to give it a try since I have 10 lbs of Bonlander.
I would be interested in your heavier recipe for the Amber, thanks in advance.

 

[redrocker652002]

Please take this for what it is worth, as I am new to all of this. Your FG seemed a bit low? Maybe trying to up that by adding something to the mash might add a bit more to taste and eliminate the dryness? Again, new to all of this and noticed that. Most I see have a FG of 1.060 or higher. Not sure if what I am saying is even right, but heck, I am having my coffee and enjoying the posts. Rock On!!!!!!!

 

[NSMikeD]

Please take this for what it is worth, as I am new to all of this. Your FG seemed a bit low? Maybe trying to up that by adding something to the mash might add a bit more to taste and eliminate the dryness? Again, new to all of this and noticed that. Most I see have a FG of 1.060 or higher. Not sure if what I am saying is even right, but heck, I am having my coffee and enjoying the posts. Rock On!!!!!!!

1.060 would be OG Original Gravity (Pre ferment). 1.013 would be FG Final Gravity. That would also be in line with a beer that had unfermentable sugars remaining and not explain the extra dry taste.

 

[redrocker652002]

1.060 would be OG Original Gravity (Pre ferment). 1.013 would be FG Final Gravity. That would also be in line with a beer that had unfermentable sugars remaining and not explain the extra dry taste.

Ooops, my bad. Sorry.

 

[grampamark]

Interesting. Looks a bit heavy on the Munich, almost like a festival ale? And choc malt over carafa, are they interchangeable or do do prefer the chocolate malt?

I guess we have different ideas about what constitutes “heavy”. Five percent is mostly for color, along with the chocolate.

 

[grampamark]

Grampamark,I just jotted down the lighter amber recipe. Does it have a name? Going to give it a try since I have 10 lbs of Bonlander.
I would be interested in your heavier recipe for the Amber, thanks in advance.

It isn’t that much heavier, just slightly higher gravity, hoppier, and a bit darker. It doesn’t have a name, just American Amber Ale.

 

[Onthebrew]

I guess we have different ideas about what constitutes “heavy”. Five percent is mostly for color, along with the chocolate.

52% Munich no?

 

[grampamark]

52% Munich no?

Sorry, I was thinking of the caramel.

But, Munich 10 can be used as a base malt. I use that much in several recipes. I consider it more for the flavor than the color; your mileage may vary.