Advice - And the quest for perfection

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gunhaus

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Some ranting and sarcasm to ensue - be warned

So, I see a lot of posts by folks seeking to brew the perfect ___________________ While the quest itself seems a bit quixotic I do really applaud the attempt! But it seems, there is a need for validation and wide ranging advice on how to attain such an unattainable goal. Many folks enter competitions, others join clubs, and as we all know many use these internet forums. I have found the array of replies to run the gamut from confusing to amusing!

Personally I rarely seek outside opinion on my brews. One of the reason is that I already brew the PERFECT example of eight or nine different styles. How do i know this? Easy! Because I said so. These beers please me, I like the taste. My family likes the taste. They make me happy, they make my ears ring and the angles sing. And THAT is all it takes to qualify as perfect. Outside validation of perfection is not sought, because frankly it cannot exist. People like what they like, and it is a sure bet that is different from what I like.

However - last night in a fit of foolishness, or perhaps some deeply ingrained need for self-abuse, I agreed to join my brother, at a gathering of brewers to be held in my nephews basement. Simple game: Bring a few samples of a few different brews along with a little card with the grain bill. Drink, compare, repeat . . . . Sounds fun right?

I took half a dozen beers, ranging from an export Stout on one end to a Blonde Ale that i thought came out quite nice. We entered to house, descended the stairs, and found ourselves adrift in the Great Hipster Sea! I have never seen so many tulip glasses in my life. And i still have bruises all over from bumping into those rigidly extended pinkie fingers. We found the table, laid out our wares, and joined in on the tasting part as quickly as possible.

Those who know me are aware that i am fond of beer flavored beer. I am not the biggest fan of the assorted coconut-guava-breakfast cereal-doughnut thingies. Feel free of course! Just none for me thanks. We- my taste buds and I - quickly discovered we were probably in the wrong place. There were a lot of imaginative amalgamations. However with some judicious searching, a few cool and tasty adult beverages were discovered and tried. With that part under control, we started listening to the critiques. Where i discovered a number of things.

First, a youngster who was born about ten years after i first started brewing, scrutinized the grain bill on my pet APA. He told me the beer was OK, but that I could tweak it a little and make it better. When i asked for enlightenment, he told me to basically replace the entire grain bill with other ingredients, and to quadruple the IBU's. When i opined that that would in fact create an entirely different brew, he chuckled knowingly . . . I heard the knowing chuckle A LOT over the next couple hours.

Next was a pretty young lady who told me my Blonde Ale was really good, but that it would be better with some fruit. I told here that I dislike fruit in beer. She game me a knowing chuckle. Then she explained that EVERYONE likes fruit in beer, and that i just hadn't tried it right. ( I Still don't know what that means) She then reiterated that this Blonde Ale really needed some blackberry, or blueberry, or dinggleberry or something.

The rest of the evening went in a similar manner. Too many hops in my IPA expect for when there were not enough hops in my IPA. Why no chocolate, raspberry, froo froo sauce in my export stout. You should dry hop that Blonde Ale more. Your brown ale is: too sweet, too dry, too low in IBU, too bitter, "Hey is that a mild", "What a wimpy stout" "Good Porter man". On my Red Ale, I heard, "What is wrong with this brown ale?" and "It need some chocolate"

After about a day and a half the two hour event came to an end. But not without one last treat. My nephew and his pal have been bitten hard by the NEIPA bug, and they had just completed their masterpiece, and they broke out big old pints for everyone! Now i should explain right here that I find NEIPA repulsive. In fact i would rather lick the bottom of my shoe after a square dance in a hog pen. But he is family. It was everything i have come to expect (Dread) A thick glass of orangish/grapefruitish cloudy liquid, with about 2 million IBU's of hops, that when swallowed left me with the sensation that a small little mean spirited imp was rubbing 40 grit sandpaper across what used to be functioning taste buds. As my brother and i were leaving the kid asked what i thought. After a moment I said, "needs some fruit." And I chuckled knowingly as i climbed the stairs.

My brother took me to a favorite local tap room and bought me a supersized Two Hearted Ale, as a form of apology for instigating the evening - and to help initiate the rehabilitation process. Unfortunately the scarring may be permanent To my alpha acid tortured tasters, the entire mug had no more perceived flavor than a glass of Mountain Spring. . . . . The kid behind the bar suggested some fruit........
 
Well, if you don't to here what others think, don't ask!

I make beer I like, but if I ask others about it, I just take what the say with a filter. Beer judge?? going to pay attention to this one. Local brewmaster?? Ok, guy might have some idea what he is talking about. Brew club guys?? 50-50, that one guy may just be pissed because I beat him in last competition. Sweet young thing or Mr. Hipster??? "Thank you for your input!" ... now go outside and vape/ post a selfie...
 
mj - Bud - the category is mindless ramblings etc - I was just having a little fun with a mostly true, partially accurate parable, about a semi fictitious event that almost certainly happened to a certain extent. Some times things around here get too stuffy, serious, pompous, self-important, ideological, technical, and uptight. I was just trying to inject a mildly humorous, and almost entirely factual fantasy in an effort to elicit a slight laugh. easy bro!
 
too stuffy, serious, pompous, self-important, ideological, technical, and uptight.

Bravo gunhaus.[emoji122] well done. I got a laugh out of it and enjoyed the heck out of it. Splayed out the scene super well and i felt your fun with it all.

But wait, Haha, lol, aren't you some of those things[emoji115] [emoji6] [emoji3]
 
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SIR _ I take umbrage - I prefer bombastic and . . . Creative! Almost all of the fictitious parts of my story were completely fabricated. The truly truthful parts were only mildly embellished. Pomposity was totally accidental even if intended. But in the end I really did mean well - Brew on brothers and sister - BREW ON!
 
I liked your post and feel the same way. This hobby is most enjoyed by me to brew to my tastes. Sounds self centered and it is but the hobby is a reward in that sense. If I was starting a brewery I would look a lot towards other's opinions as you need to be able to sell your product. I respect the German traditions of brewing and overall in life enjoy things comprised of practiced technique and knowledge. Experimentation without great technique is a mess imho at the homebrew level. Cool concepts with major flaws is a no go for me. This has led me to be a lone shark brewer. No worries if people want their hobby to be this way, that is wonderful. Just don't expect me to be there telling them it tastes great.
 
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I know this story well. Having been a brewer for over 20yrs and doing it for a living for nearly 4yrs, I roll my eyes at how trendy beer has become.
Oh well.
 
Wow.

Ask those peoople to brew a Helles, without any bells or whistles but a straight up bavarian helles.

To me a beer might either be good, or need some more or some less of whatever I feel it need some more or some less of. But when I'm brewing to style a certified judge which I trust (where I know which experience etc he or she has) says so and so, i might start to think a little bit.
 
There is some value in getting feedback on your beer. Even if you only brew for yourself, you might change an ingredient or process based on feedback and find that you like the new beer better. It really depends on what you goals are. If you want to keep yourself supplied with lots of drinkable beer, then you will do different things then if you are looking for recognition from the community. Both paths are valid persuits. If you really are in search of making the perfect beer, then first you have to decide what perfect is.
 
My parable was not constructed with the imparting of any earth shattering life lessons in mind. Nor was it designed as an exercise in debate. It was kind of intended as a lighthearted attempt at levity via observation of generational and social differences through the lenses of some seriously scratched and stained beer goggles.

Plus I was bored.

It seems though, that some would take portions of this fable seriously - and that is completely fair. I do not wish to instigate any long drawn out conceptual arguments - so I will just touch briefly on AZ's reply above as it pertains to the portions of the evening I was ridiculing. . . .

I do get feedback on my brews, I get it from my friends, family, and those who have been drinking it for many years now. On 8 or 9 models the feedback is LEAVE IT ALONE.

There is no feedback that involves ME putting blueberry in MY blonde ale that is ever going to be constructive. That is NOT going to produce a beer i LIKE BETTER, at any time ever - I despise fruit in beer and no matter HOW constructive the feed back is intended to be; fruit in beer will still disgust me. It's like fruit cake- NO YOUR'S IS NOT DIFFERENT - it is fruit cake. Fruit beer- same thing.

Suggesting i use disgusting and nasty Mosaic Hops in my pale ale is likewise not helpful feedback that will improve the pale ale I have liked since 1989.

As for perfection - If there was ANY actual lesson being put forth in my tome it was that there is no such thing! Can't be. Never will. It is unattainable. Mostly because there is always some joker out there with stock in blueberry and mosaic who will tell you how to fix the beer you have come to love with a knowing chuckle.

That said - I am not opposed to feedback.I brew new stuff all the time! I force those who know and love me to try it, and to tell me what they think - unless it is really harsh, then I prefer they tell me what I want to hear - but that is another topic on human behavior. Still, I regularly tweak new brews till they reach that state where they join the "family" as it were.

In the end, i suppose this fable is just like the nephew around whom it revolves. The kid wears this big old Ferdinand the Bull nose ring all the time. I hate it. I hang out with a bunch of crusty old conservative middle age guys who are gracelessly sliding into to full blown geezerhood that hate it too. One asked me why i don't just rip that thing out of his snoz. WELL _ because it is part of what makes him him. It is something those of us who know and love the kid accept and see as part of what makes him the unique creature he is! Is he perfect? Hell no he's got a big goofy bull ring in the middle of his face! But he's great, and funny, and generous, and hard working and we love him - So to us he is perfect. My beers from the story are like that.
 
It seems that we can help each other then. I have done exhaustive research to find the perfect beer and you have had it “in the family” all this time. Please send me a six pack and I will give you feedback on it, unless I don’t like it, in which case I will tell you what I think you’d like to hear. I’d pay shipping, but I don’t want to be negatively biased against your beer before I even try it.
 
My dear AZ_

I have a curiosity regarding "exhaustive research" to find the perfect beer! One of the little voices in my head is screaming out that there could be ENDLESS recreational possibilities in that arena and that perhaps I should delve further. We will see.

As for the remainder:

I don't have just one perfect beer - I have 8 or 9; It was in the text. You would not like them though, I can see from your mindset that you would find them bitter and lacking in worth. The point of this exercise was fun - I am sorry you missed the point. Another point was the less that casual and oh so not subtle hint that i just don't much CARE much about feedback. Especially the feedback from someone I do not know and never will. You are free to be biased against my beers if you like, it will in no way affect my outlook on life! I was only attempting to take a humorous view of what is too often a pompous and stuffy hobby. AND to make some less than subtle digs at the occasional lack of humor exhibited by so many people these days. Ironically this seems to have been driven home FAR FAR better by certain replies than it was by my clearly inadequate narration skills! Life is short. Life is complicated. Most of the things that make today's world go round are expensive. A light heart and a wry sense of humor are free!! Seems strange so MANY people are unwilling to take advantage of that!!!

Sadly - i made the always fatal mistake of assuming that people would recognize a bit of tongue-in-cheek when presented. Instead it would appear this has been taken by some as yet another topic to be harshly debated, deeply challenged, and masculinly rebuked!!!!! Sorry - won't happen again. I will head out right now, and purchase a stick of appropriate dimensions and insert it per instruction in the proper location - Thus joining the humorless metronome of serious group-think, never to again be plagued with a fit of witticism, nor a moment of levity. . . . . I swear - really, seriously honestly . . . . .
 
Thank you for calling a stop to this so called levity. In spite of the grin on my face and chuckling while reading your posts, I find your writing pale yet overly embellished. Perhaps some fruit could add a zing to otherwise uninspired writing.
 
Some people just can't be helped...

When I brew beer, I have two goals:
  1. I want to brew it to *my* taste of what that beer should be.
  2. I want it to be close to as technically flawless as I can possibly make it.
For the most part, if I'm looking for feedback, it's on #2. I'll decide #1 by myself [or get feedback from my wife or others who will be regularly drinking it].

Because #2 is objective. #1 is not.

It seems like people weren't trying to help you improve your beer. They were trying to help you improve their beer. But since I doubt any of them but your brother and your nephew will ever get the opportunity to drink it ever again, their breath was more than wasted...
 
Enjoyed your story gunhaus! I was with you the whole way through. People do have their OWN opinions on what beer should be and man they don't mind telling you what yours should be either! That's why I brew beer for me and the way I like it.

John
 
A friend of mine gave me a black IPA to try a while back, he straight up told me that he didn't care what I thought about it because he thought it was perfect and he wasn't going to change anything.

And to me that's why homebrewing will always be better than buying commercial. Whether you are able to fine tune the flavour nuances to tailor the brew just how you like it, or whether it's ugly baby syndrome and your beer sucks but you like it because you made it - it's cool either way.
 
I want to say thank you! I was starting to think I was in some weird arsed twilight zone where ironic observation had been banned! and specifically to SADU - it is so strange brother - I had EXACTLY that happen to me, and I will be god damned if he wasn't right and it was too good to mess with!!!!! I do mean exactly too in that it was a black IPA - a brew that is the epitome of ironic in nature to begin with and one I happen to enjoy a lot.

I want to say, i never meant to start a thing with this Original post. I saw the category mindless ramblings; and since I am both mindless and rambling in nature, i thought I would jump on the go-around thingy and play. I meant well. and I see now that there were some others who understood that I was simply trying to play within the spirit of the concept. I apologize to those who my ignorance and inferior rambling nature offended!!!!!!!!!!! But rambling was my goal; and high an'tight, specific prose with immediate attention grabbing parable was never my thing ( Sorry AZ) I wander a bit - and at times I am prone to excessive hyperbole and lavish over embellishment!!! ( BY the way both Mark Twain and Hunter S Thompson were very fond of windy over embellishment) In the interest of fairness, I am now as we speak, eating some pineapple, and drinking an IPA - Perhaps fruit WILL fix it. I will let you know. .. . . . . NO!!!!!! THAT made me want to throw up - Sorry!!!!!!

Anyway - I have been thinking about a dissertation on how mankind not only founded beer making in the crescent valley a gazillion years ago thus creating the division between meat eaters and vegans as well as forming civilization as we know it. But simultaneously creating the two party political structure that has plagued/benefited mankind ever since. Any drunken rambling non-serious thoughts on this>>>
 
I've brewed a lot of beer that I really like but I don't believe any of my beers have reached perfection to the point that I will brew them exactly the same next time I brew. You have 8 or 9 perfect recipes? Outstanding!

Actually my favorite recipe is a basic APA with a fixed grain bill (except when I vary the grain bill due to current supply levels or other whim) and then hopped with (usually) a single hop I've not tried before. I say usually because I've tried a lot of hops and am now repeating some and finding that either my perception of the hops has changed or the hops themselves have changed as what I loved two years ago may not be quite all that today.
 
It’s ironic that you and I guess I call myself Arizona, since in fact I actually think of myself as a Colorado native, having lived there from birth until the ripe old age of twelve years old, which by the way, those twelve years seem to count a great deal more than the 32 years I’ve spent in Arizona. But since I have been supplanted here to wither in this furnace I suppose that it is just as appropriate to call me Arizona.

On a sweeter or perhaps more sour note depending on how you look at it, I think that my garage may be able to keep the 100 degrees or so needed to kettle sour a Saison. That is if I even have the huevos, as they say here in Arizona, to try it. That is try kettle souring. It doesn’t take much for me to be convinced to try a Saison.
 
Eric my friend! Your avatar is really cool!! I believe your beers will reach perfection - some probably already have!!It is a matter of inspirational understanding. I know I have 8-9 perfect recipes. My wife likes them - and she assures me that if I mess with them she will put spiders in my mouth while I sleep. ( I am . . . unfond of spiders) SO - i am quite sure they are perfect recipes. If you question this you are welcome to sleep in my spot during spider season!!!! I do agree as well with your assessment that if it comes out wrong the hops are probably at fault!!! They do after all live on vines and have a very bitter nature!
 
Dear Mr AZCoolerBrewer

I really don't know or care where you are from- I was not attempting to start a fight with you. I love both AZ and CO, but I admit that WY is my favorite state although I am currently stuck in MI. If it will make you leave me alone I will concede that your are:

the greatest most smartest brewer EVER on earth EVER

That I am the worstest person and the worstest writer ever.

That only you speaketh truth

That I am a hack and a liar

If this is insufficient and you would like to shoot a duel - - - I consent - However we are some ways apart so i would propose that you go out to your yard, and draw a picture of a large middle age fat man on your target paper. Then back off 10 paces turn and shoot the target ( My name is John - Please write that on the target so you know it is me you are shooting) When you are done post your success - i will of course immediately acknowledge your successful killing of me. You can claim great victory. And of course neither of us will be forced to suffer either physical nor legal trauma! I have only been through the later once - (It really sucked but my family was at stake and the jury agreed) The former i went through three times --- that led to the later - - - -But that would be a sob story. If there is a point to be made here it is that I do not know what I did to piss you off - I AM sorry you find this all offensive.
 
@gunhaus you do have 8 or 9 PERFECT beers. The rest I can’t vouch for. Even those 8 or 9 I can’t vouch for. If I lived closer I certainly would though. Like you, I hope to never unintentionally offend anyone. If I offend someone, I would hope it’s intentional.
Cheers, brew on, carry on, keep on rambling.
 
Alas, I would no more shoot you In effigy then I would shoot my own. In fact, in my current state, my effigy is in far more danger than yours as I have my own sob story. Even then my attacks would be weak, as I find myself unarmed.

Had you read properly between the lines of my last post, rather than a duel, I was offering the sharing of a Saison, so I guess that it is me that is wounded. However, I know when I am unwanted and will bow out of the conversation myself. May your nine beers ward off any spider that should pass within a half mile of you.
 
Haha. I enjoy your ideas, sir, and wish to subscribe to your magazine..
Except the being a conservative and not liking neipas. Those are both opinions deserving of:

I'm generally tolerant of those who choose to do silly things to poor harmless beer, but when someone here piped up their desire to brew a dried chanterelle and truffle salt sour beer I felt the madness was becoming a problem.

I was also spitting with indignant rage when my bathtime beer turned out to have been polluted with super grapefruit. I get it, oh hops have some fruity flavours let's put those fruit in as well, how clever...
NO!
Nobody is going about mixing blackcurrant cordial into their red wine to "enhance the fruit notes". Although the way things are going...

That said, for some reason I don't mind fruit in sour beers.

We should start a parallel thread with preposterous recipes and see what poor buggers take the bait and brew them.

Bacon and brie stout fermented with whole pigs trotters and dry hopped with stinging nettles in the glass?
 
Some ranting and sarcasm to ensue - be warned

So, I see a lot of posts by folks seeking to brew the perfect ___________________ While the quest itself seems a bit quixotic I do really applaud the attempt! But it seems, there is a need for validation and wide ranging advice on how to attain such an unattainable goal. Many folks enter competitions, others join clubs, and as we all know many use these internet forums. I have found the array of replies to run the gamut from confusing to amusing!

Personally I rarely seek outside opinion on my brews. One of the reason is that I already brew the PERFECT example of eight or nine different styles. How do i know this? Easy! Because I said so. These beers please me, I like the taste. My family likes the taste. They make me happy, they make my ears ring and the angles sing. And THAT is all it takes to qualify as perfect. Outside validation of perfection is not sought, because frankly it cannot exist. People like what they like, and it is a sure bet that is different from what I like.

However - last night in a fit of foolishness, or perhaps some deeply ingrained need for self-abuse, I agreed to join my brother, at a gathering of brewers to be held in my nephews basement. Simple game: Bring a few samples of a few different brews along with a little card with the grain bill. Drink, compare, repeat . . . . Sounds fun right?

I took half a dozen beers, ranging from an export Stout on one end to a Blonde Ale that i thought came out quite nice. We entered to house, descended the stairs, and found ourselves adrift in the Great Hipster Sea! I have never seen so many tulip glasses in my life. And i still have bruises all over from bumping into those rigidly extended pinkie fingers. We found the table, laid out our wares, and joined in on the tasting part as quickly as possible.

Those who know me are aware that i am fond of beer flavored beer. I am not the biggest fan of the assorted coconut-guava-breakfast cereal-doughnut thingies. Feel free of course! Just none for me thanks. We- my taste buds and I - quickly discovered we were probably in the wrong place. There were a lot of imaginative amalgamations. However with some judicious searching, a few cool and tasty adult beverages were discovered and tried. With that part under control, we started listening to the critiques. Where i discovered a number of things.

First, a youngster who was born about ten years after i first started brewing, scrutinized the grain bill on my pet APA. He told me the beer was OK, but that I could tweak it a little and make it better. When i asked for enlightenment, he told me to basically replace the entire grain bill with other ingredients, and to quadruple the IBU's. When i opined that that would in fact create an entirely different brew, he chuckled knowingly . . . I heard the knowing chuckle A LOT over the next couple hours.

Next was a pretty young lady who told me my Blonde Ale was really good, but that it would be better with some fruit. I told here that I dislike fruit in beer. She game me a knowing chuckle. Then she explained that EVERYONE likes fruit in beer, and that i just hadn't tried it right. ( I Still don't know what that means) She then reiterated that this Blonde Ale really needed some blackberry, or blueberry, or dinggleberry or something.

The rest of the evening went in a similar manner. Too many hops in my IPA expect for when there were not enough hops in my IPA. Why no chocolate, raspberry, froo froo sauce in my export stout. You should dry hop that Blonde Ale more. Your brown ale is: too sweet, too dry, too low in IBU, too bitter, "Hey is that a mild", "What a wimpy stout" "Good Porter man". On my Red Ale, I heard, "What is wrong with this brown ale?" and "It need some chocolate"

After about a day and a half the two hour event came to an end. But not without one last treat. My nephew and his pal have been bitten hard by the NEIPA bug, and they had just completed their masterpiece, and they broke out big old pints for everyone! Now i should explain right here that I find NEIPA repulsive. In fact i would rather lick the bottom of my shoe after a square dance in a hog pen. But he is family. It was everything i have come to expect (Dread) A thick glass of orangish/grapefruitish cloudy liquid, with about 2 million IBU's of hops, that when swallowed left me with the sensation that a small little mean spirited imp was rubbing 40 grit sandpaper across what used to be functioning taste buds. As my brother and i were leaving the kid asked what i thought. After a moment I said, "needs some fruit." And I chuckled knowingly as i climbed the stairs.

My brother took me to a favorite local tap room and bought me a supersized Two Hearted Ale, as a form of apology for instigating the evening - and to help initiate the rehabilitation process. Unfortunately the scarring may be permanent To my alpha acid tortured tasters, the entire mug had no more perceived flavor than a glass of Mountain Spring. . . . . The kid behind the bar suggested some fruit........
Thank you!
 
Some ranting and sarcasm to ensue - be warned


Next was a pretty young lady who told me my Blonde Ale was really good, but that it would be better with some fruit. I told here that I dislike fruit in beer. She game me a knowing chuckle. Then she explained that EVERYONE likes fruit in beer, and that i just hadn't tried it right.

You blew it, man; You should have asked her if she'd liked to put a banana in her pretty mouth. And then said: "you'll like my banana,
once you want to try right"
If she had taken you up on it, the evening would have been more fun, if the comment got you thrown out, you'd have made it to the pub earlier.
:mug:
On a less sarcastic note, I usually don't like fruit beer either. Usually the there is too much sweetness or the fermented fruit just has a flavor I don't like.
But recently I had a mango/guava Tangerine zest IPA from 4 hands Brewing in St Louis, and it was really good, so perhaps its good to keep an open
mind about some things.
 
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This, too, shall pass. It amuses me to watch the "trends" of beer and related alcoholic beverages out there. I was a bartender when the big "let's mix red bull with vodka/rum/something" brouhaha happened, creating a bunch of wide-awake drunks. I brew what I like to drink. I hate gose, sours, lambics, and anything that just doesn't taste good to me. I grew up drinking Dad's Budweisers when he wasn't looking (and most times when he was). When I turned 21, IPA's hadn't really happened yet. And after reading this, I realized that my favorite beer from my 20's was Moosehead. Need to find a clone recipe.

It's late at night and I'm rambling. We've been to Oregon Brewfest every year for the last ten, and last year the number of what I would call "weird" beers was phenomenal. Catering to the hipsters and beer snobs, I know. I tend to gravitate towards the DIPAs, blondes, and straight porters, sometimes the heavy stouts.

I've said it before, but it all comes down to what YOU like to drink, and to hell with what anyone else thinks. I've made some great beers, some ugly ones, and some that were meh but I drank anyway because I made them.
 
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