Adding dark grains late.

[Basevol]

Reading Gordon Strong's new book "Modern Homebrew Recipes" I came across adding dark grains at vorlauf. I've never done this, I guess I missed the memo on it!!!
If you practice this what do you think about it, big difference or not?
It makes sense to me I guess, but I'd like to know what you think about it!!

 

[Brettomomyces]

I like this method a lot, especially when you are grinding the dark malt to a fine powder. It really took the last dry stout I made over the top in flavor. I use a burr coffee grinder to get it really fine.

 

[Hello]

I don't add them at vorlauf, but I do add them with 15 minutes left in he mash.

 

[Cottonmouth]

What is the advantage in doing this?

 

[Basevol]

What is the advantage in doing this?

He stated,
To avoid astringency and harshness. He says keeping dark grain in contact with hot water for an extended period of time (mash) doesn't add any value, but can add astringency to the beer.

 

[Cyclman]

I do it because with my water and 2-row, I get a perfect mash ph. This way I don't have to adjust my water for darker beers.

I have noticed no major flavor differences. Maybe the late added versions have been a little "fresher" tasting?

 

[Natdavis777]

I keep my dark grains in the entire mash, but I calculate my mash pH into the equation.

Now, for my Black IPA, I mash with all malts except the carafa special. That is added to the vorlouf/sparge to add the color without any roasted character.

 

[Roadie]

I've never done this either but am going to try it on an upcoming milk stout we're brewing. We brew with RO water and added salts tailored to match whatever we're brewing. If I acidify (lactic acid) for correct mashing pH for the pale malt then when I add in all the dark grain (we fly sparge over 45-60 minutes) won't it drop the mash pH too low so the wort going into the boil kettle will be off possibly resulting in an off flavor? I'm science stupid so type your response s-l-o-w-l-y.

 

[SpeedYellow]

It's a fad, just like first-wort-hopping.

 

[Vamptrump]

This seems like an interesting technique. I wish I didn't mix my entire grain bill in one bag already, otherwise I would have tried this with my stout tomorrow.

 

[PlexVector]

I don't remember now where I saw this, it was almost a year ago--maybe @Bobby_M ? But it was to make a tea from certain specialty malts and add directly to the boil. I guess to have better control of color and flavors.

 

[jdauria]

Gordon Strong also adds dark grain late to help manage pH levels. Per the book, he uses RO water and adds .25 tsp of 10% phosphoric acid to every 5 gallons of brewing water to adjust water pH to 5.5. Then he adds very minimal water mineral additions. For malty beers, usually 1 tsp of calcium chloride. For hoppy, 1 tsp of gypsum. Some recipes in the book he used a 1/2 tsp of each, some he also added a little to the boil also...but the point is to keep the additions limited.

Anyway, I tried his method on my last brew, the Amber Ale from his book. Had some issues getting water pH to 5.5 because I used Primo Water which I guess is not pure RO. So had to go back and forth between adding acid and adding baking soda until I hit 5.5. Added dark/crystal grains at vorlauf and the beer picked up a great amber color. One of the keys is doing a long slow sparge also.

Just dry hopped the beer after 10 day primary ferment and took a sample and have to say, it's very tasty, caramel notes from the crystal malts came through nicely.

 

[m00ps]

I do this for my Black IPAs and Saisons. I personally like Midnight Wheat and Blackprinz in that order to get a pale ale black colored with teh least amount of roast flavor. I've found 1 lb gets it good and black, but still wanted to get less roast. Last Black IPA I did 3/4lb in the mash and 1/2lb right at mashout just to get the color and very little flavor from the extra amount. Worked great, I'm gonna try 1/2lb and 1/2lb next time to see how it goes

 

[RedlegEd]

I understand about the darker malts, but how about something like a Munich? I've made a SMaSH with just Munich and Ahtanum with a 60 minute mash. It came out really good, very malt forward and slightly sweet, but had a slight little burnt after-taste (I know I didn't scorch it.) Is that the astringency that Gordon referred to? What would you all suggest for Munich? Add it at the beginning of the mash like a base malt, or wait until the end? BTW, I BIAB and recirculate during the mash, so for late additions, I'd add it when I'm starting to heat up into mash-out.

 

[SpeedYellow]

I understand about the darker malts, but how about something like a Munich? I've made a SMaSH with just Munich and Ahtanum with a 60 minute mash. It came out really good, very malt forward and slightly sweet, but had a slight little burnt after-taste (I know I didn't scorch it.) ...

I'm interested to hear peoples' thoughts on the burnt flavor, because at a recent homebrew club meeting, a good brewer had an O'fest with a burnt flavor despite using no roasted malts. We were all scratching our heads, and I suspected diacetyl or maybe infection.

 

[m00ps]

edit: wrong thread...

 

[cooper]

I understand about the darker malts, but how about something like a Munich? I've made a SMaSH with just Munich and Ahtanum with a 60 minute mash. It came out really good, very malt forward and slightly sweet, but had a slight little burnt after-taste (I know I didn't scorch it.) Is that the astringency that Gordon referred to? What would you all suggest for Munich? Add it at the beginning of the mash like a base malt, or wait until the end? BTW, I BIAB and recirculate during the mash, so for late additions, I'd add it when I'm starting to heat up into mash-out.

Munich and Vienna go into the mash along with the base grains. Its only the specialty malts that go in during the last 15 mins or during vorlauf. A good way to think about it is whether or not they are considered steeping grains in an extract batch.

I do BIAB as well and recirculate during the mash as well with the BrewBoss and this method works great. I also treat all of my brewing water with Lactic acid down to a pH of 5.5 and have never experienced any off flavors from adding dark or steeping grains in during the last 15 mins. (some people worry about too much of a pH drop) I think Kai had a thread on his website that talked about the benefits of acidifying the wort during the boil and getting good results but I'm unable to find it right now.

I think the best thing we as homebrewers can do with an idea is to put it to the test and then share our experiences here for others to benefit.

 

[ArcLight]

I know Gordon Strong has written about this, but it may have been in Denny Cons book where he wrote that he soaks the roast barley in room temperature water for a day and adds it to the boil. He suggests using additional roast barley as you may not get the full flavor you would in a hotter steep.

Does anyone do this and what is your experience?

 

[m00ps]

When I do black IPAs or saisons, or once even a tripel, I add the roasted grains at mashout. This seems to work very well to extract all the color and the least amount of roast flavor contribution

 

[Want2BS8ed]

I have been enjoying Gordon's latest book as well and wondering the same about adding grains in a no-sparge/BIAB/recirculating system.

So if I am understanding the prior posts, the last 15 minutes (essentially mashout) is the way to go?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[RedlegEd]

It's a fad, just like first-wort-hopping.

SpeedYellow may be on to something. It looks like the question has been made part of an ExBEERiment by Marshall Schott at Brülosophy. The results are interesting, to say the least. After reading this, I think I'll just stick to milling my grain and mashing as normal.

 

[PlexVector]

SpeedYellow may be on to something. It looks like the question has been made part of an ExBEERiment by Marshall Schott at Brülosophy. The results are interesting, to say the least. After reading this, I think I'll just stick to milling my grain and mashing as normal.

I read that too, and was somewhat surprised cause I was thinking of trying it, but I may not now. Although I may for a big dark beer--I tend to not like too much roastyness.

 

[m1k3]

I've done the "dark grains" at the end of the mash twice. (stout and a baltic porter)
It does in fact make a different beer. The color was more brown and less black that the amount of dark grains would normally provide. And the roast character was less aggressive... more of a sweet chocolate without the astringency or harsher bitterness.

If that sounds like something you'd want then I'd say try it. I would not say it is better for every beer but it can be a tool in your brewers toolbelt.

The baltic porter that I did like that is on tap now... and I love it (but it is different). It was also great beer when I brewed it before with the dark grains in the entire mash. The recipe from Brewing Classic Styles was intended for the dark grains in the entire mash.... so, I know what Jamil intended with the recipe.

 

[MI_Dogman]

This worked great for my Black IPA recipe using De-Husked Caraf III. I mashed .5lb at 5% of the grain bill for 60min. Then added .5lb at the end of the mash for my batch sparge. I got a really black color with just a slight roast taste. Basically allow me to hit that dark SRM range without mashing to much roasted grain.

-Dogman

 

[Want2BS8ed]

It does in fact make a different beer. The color was more brown and less black that the amount of dark grains would normally provide. And the roast character was less aggressive... more of a sweet chocolate without the astringency or harsher bitterness.

I brewed Gordon's Dunkel Weizen, adding the dark grains late and was really pleased with the results.

Think your description is spot on and (at least in this case) the milder character was a plus.

Mike

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I read that too, and was somewhat surprised cause I was thinking of trying it, but I may not now. Although I may for a big dark beer--I tend to not like too much roastyness.

I would highly recommend midnight wheat malt. All the way up to 16oz and it doesn't contribute any overt roast character(coffee and dark chocolate all the way). I can't comment on amounts greater than 16oz, yet. De-husked caraf gets similar reviews. I really like combining it with a medium roast chocolate and pale chocolate malt, if you want some of that background roast for you can always add a dash of roast barley.

I'm a strong proponent of just throwing it all together in the mash after reading the experiment, I also deal with 8.8 pH city water though... I think ash tray roast character is less process related and more to do with ingredient choice.