A legality question!

[mrduna01]

So I know I know it is illegal in every way to sell, barter or to in any way collect money in exchange for Homebrew. But.

From a legal standpoint (as I want to abide by said laws) would it be acceptable to make a batch for someone whom enjoys my beer if they pay for the ingredients and I only collect exactly what is owed with no profit being made? I have a few buddies who enjoy my brew and have requested a batch and I don't mind spending the time making it if it doesn't cost me anything and assuming my bottles get returned.

If I'm in anyway stretching any laws than I won't do it. Nough said!

 

[nefarious_1_]

Just have them buy the ingredients.

Done deal.

 

[Mrott]

I just keep a generic jar out that just so happens to be sitting on the beer fridge. If money happens to just show up in there I won't know where it came from so I couldn't return it if I wanted to. In return I just so choose to re-invest said monies into beer.

If someone happens to steal a case of beer from me when I'm not looking and leaves $20 or so (depending on the type and approximate value) behind in said generic jar, I'll be pissed that my beer was stolen but at least I found $20 so I can get over the fact that my beer was taken from my property without formal consent with relative ease....

 

[Mysticmead]

here's what I do... I have said friend buy the ingredients and bring them to me. I then have them assist in brewing the beer. I even have them pitch the yeast. I store it while it ferments and have them buy bottles/caps/priming sugar when it comes time to bottle. they come over and assist in bottling (have them cap while you fill).

This accomplishes a couple things... 1st.. all you're really doing is storing it in your fermentor for them. 2nd.. it teaches them to brew and might just ignite that flame and create a brew buddy for ya.

 

[wildwest450]

Don't ask don't tell, this isn't a legal advice website.

_

 

[eastoak]

Don't ask don't tell, this isn't a legal advice website.

_

exactly, i can never understand why someone with these questions would 1.) ask anyone other than their local permitting authority or 2.)just go ahead and do it if they want to.

 

[Firebat138]

no stretching at all... but +1^ just brew and enjoy

 

[onthekeg]

Don't ask don't tell, this isn't a legal advice website.

_

True. We just have marketing advice.

 

[mrduna01]

Thank you to those that have replied with good suggestions. To those wondering why I want to adhere to what the laws are... It's a morals thing but thanks anyway.

 

[samc]

As above I'd not be asking, but since you did:

§ 25.206 Removal of beer.

Beer made under §25.205 may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use including use at organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings or judging. Beer removed under this section may not be sold or offered for sale.

So basically home brew should be consumed in your home, 100 gallons for single adult. Nothing wrong with going to your friends house and showing him/her how to brew a batch of beer with their own ingredients.

 

[LVBen]

Just teach your buddies how to brew!

 

[wildwest450]

Thank you to those that have replied with good suggestions. To those wondering why I want to adhere to what the laws are... It's a morals thing but thanks anyway.

Bravo to you. But why ask a bunch of strangers from all different states a question that can only be answered by local authorities?

_

 

[mrduna01]

As above I'd not be asking, but since you did:

§ 25.206 Removal of beer.

Beer made under §25.205 may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use including use at organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings or judging. Beer removed under this section may not be sold or offered for sale.

So basically home brew should be consumed in your home, 100 gallons for single adult. Nothing wrong with going to your friends house and showing him/her how to brew a batch of beer with their own ingredients.

Thank you good sir... This is the information I was looking for but I don't quite understand why I shouldn't ask the question. That should only apply to someone trying to hide something which I'm not.

 

[mrduna01]

Bravo to you. But why ask a bunch of strangers from all different states a question that can only be answered by local authorities?

_

It was a question to get peoples feedback on but I guess I didn't realize that the state and local ordinances in the subject varied by that much.

 

[LVBen]

Thank you good sir... This is the information I was looking for but I don't quite understand why I shouldn't ask the question. That should only apply to someone trying to hide something which I'm not.

Legality is a very complicated system of various written laws, common law, enforceability, provability, and punishment. Most of the people in here probably can't even give you good advice on the legality of walking across the street.

 

[UberBrewer]

I agree with MysticMead if they buy everything and do nothing but use your setup, then they are just producing for their own household. Of course this is just my opinion. If you are that concerned about legality then these are the guys to call:

Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau
Public Information Officer
1310 G Street, NW., Suite 300
Washington, D.C. 20220
Phone: 202.453.2000

also a good resource:
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes

 

[LandoLincoln]

Thank you to those that have replied with good suggestions. To those wondering why I want to adhere to what the laws are... It's a morals thing but thanks anyway.

Laws have little to do with morality. They have a lot to do with justice.

The laws are set up for people not to be making profits from an unlicensed brewery. From a moral standpoint, there is no difference in having your friends buy the ingredients or for you to charge your friends for the cost of the ingredients. From a legal standpoint, there is a significant difference. From a law enforcement standpoint, it probably wouldn't amount to a hill of beans, since there probably isn't a prosecutor in the entire country who would bother to waste a court's time to try and prosecute you for such an infraction.

"Your honor, I was making beer for my friends and I was charging them the cost of the ingredients only, not for my time or the cost of the propane or electricity."

"Not guilty. Case dismissed. Now let's get on to something of actual importance."

 

[Killercal]

Just have them buy the ingredients.

Done deal.

I agree with that 100%

 

[ACbrewer]

I agree with MysticMead if they buy everything and do nothing but use your setup, then they are just producing for their own household. Of course this is just my opinion. If you are that concerned about legality then these are the guys to call:

Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau
Public Information Officer
1310 G Street, NW., Suite 300
Washington, D.C. 20220
Phone: 202.453.2000

also a good resource:
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes

+1 Also look for your local states ABC laws. In VA, MysticMead's description is how the BrewOnPremisis (BoP) stores work. They can help with all activites until the yeast is pitched, at that point, the customer is on his own - yeah I know business who is lisc v private citizens.

The method MM suggests is also very similar to 'a bunch of us got to gether and brewed' which happens all over the place - although I don't know how legal or not that is. I suspect that if you do it as a joint activity, and 'share cost' in a reason fashion to how /who gets product, then the police and especially the revenuers won't have much cause.

And btw, don't be fooled, they don't want you in jail, they want your money. First post 1789 internal issue was over the wiskey tax. They didn't care what the guys in western PA did, so long as they paid their taxes.

 

[Benthic]

As above I'd not be asking, but since you did:

§ 25.206 Removal of beer.

Beer made under §25.205 may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use including use at organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings or judging. Beer removed under this section may not be sold or offered for sale.

So basically home brew should be consumed in your home, 100 gallons for single adult. Nothing wrong with going to your friends house and showing him/her how to brew a batch of beer with their own ingredients.

What are you quoting here? If that's Oregon State Law, it does not apply to the OP as he's in Kentucky.

Brian

 

[Homercidal]

What are you quoting here? If that's Oregon State Law, it does not apply to the OP as he's in Kentucky.

Brian

+1. It will be necessary to investigate the statutes of the OP's state.

A quick look at the HA website shows KY defaults to Federal code, meaning that they don't further limit the federal law or offer any clarifications. Here is the verbage they list for the applicable Federal Laws:

§ 25.205 Production.

(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18 years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to State or local law.

(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax, for personal or family use may not exceed:

(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults residing in the household, or

(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household.

(c) Partnerships except as provided in §25.207, corporations or associations may not produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use.

§ 25.206 Removal of beer.

Beer made under §25.205 may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use including use at organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings or judging. Beer removed under this section may not be sold or offered for sale.

HA specifically states that Homebrew in KY should not be gifted. It may be removed for tastings and contest, etc., which need to be ORGANIZED.

In this case, I think the best legal thing to do, if you can, is simply brew at their place and leave it there. I understand this may be a less than ideal situation, but the only one that I can see that will stay within the letter of the law.

 

[jd3]

Don't ask don't tell, this isn't a legal advice website.

_

Its also not the US Navy and we're not a bunch of ass pirates.

If you don't want to answer a question, just move on to the next thread. For someone complaining about the tone of threads you do a fabulous job being a ******.


To the OP. There are stores in many states that allow you to "brew" your own beer. The only thing that you actually do is come in and pitch the yeast, come back in 2 weeks and watch it go through a bottling line. This is by law, homebrewing. I do not know if this is the case in your state.

As long as you do all of the work then it is YOUR beer. But if someone else pitches the yeast, it is technically theirs(depending on state). So it is that simple.

I think you'll get sick of doing this after just a few times though.

 

[mrduna01]

Its also not the US Navy and we're not a bunch of ass pirates.

If you don't want to answer a question, just move on to the next thread. For someone complaining about the tone of threads you do a fabulous job being a ******.

To the OP. There are stores in many states that allow you to "brew" your own beer. The only thing that you actually do is come in and pitch the yeast, come back in 2 weeks and watch it go through a bottling line. This is by law, homebrewing. I do not know if this is the case in your state.

As long as you do all of the work then it is YOUR beer. But if someone else pitches the yeast, it is technically theirs(depending on state). So it is that simple.

I think you'll get sick of doing this after just a few times though.

Very interesting... Thanks for the insight. I don't think we have any of those stores around here but sounds like a cool thing anyway.

 

[mrduna01]

+1. It will be necessary to investigate the statutes of the OP's state.

A quick look at the HA website shows KY defaults to Federal code, meaning that they don't further limit the federal law or offer any clarifications. Here is the verbage they list for the applicable Federal Laws:

§ 25.205 Production.

(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18 years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to State or local law.

(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax, for personal or family use may not exceed:

(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults residing in the household, or

(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household.

(c) Partnerships except as provided in §25.207, corporations or associations may not produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use.

§ 25.206 Removal of beer.

Beer made under §25.205 may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use including use at organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings or judging. Beer removed under this section may not be sold or offered for sale.

HA specifically states that Homebrew in KY should not be gifted. It may be removed for tastings and contest, etc., which need to be ORGANIZED.

In this case, I think the best legal thing to do, if you can, is simply brew at their place and leave it there. I understand this may be a less than ideal situation, but the only one that I can see that will stay within the letter of the law.

Can't be gifted?! This is why I asked the question. I would have never guessed. Sure I could research these things on my own but getting others feedback and how they approach things is always helpful. Thanks for the info!

 

[ACbrewer]

Can't be gifted?! This is why I asked the question. I would have never guessed. Sure I could research these things on my own but getting others feedback and how they approach things is always helpful. Thanks for the info!

Intersting question - In VA, you can give up to 1 gallon of beer a year to each person you give it to.

But here is a related - is it permissible for a person in KY to by a bottle of wine, or a 6pack of beer at the store and give that to a friend/relation. Is that personal use? Does that relate to homebrew or wine? And NO I'm not giving legal advice. I'm just suggesting something that might provide guidence.

 

[sweaterman]

More philosophically, I can understand that to some people following the laws in your area can be a moral issue. But me being one who does not necessarily believe that laws are morally based - as someone else previously stated - I would generally think of my homebrew as my property to do what I please with. Until I start marketing it and purposely trying to compete with other breweries, I think it is bull**** to think my gift to a friend of a sixer is really gonna make a dent in the market.

And does it count as gifting it if I have a party and everyone at the party is drinking my homebrew? Or does it count at "personal use" since I am providing entertainment and hydration with it?

the Goose Island IPA is delicious. And yes, I know they are now an A-B Inbev Co. That doesn't mean it isn't delicious though.

 

[mrduna01]

More philosophically, I can understand that to some people following the laws in your area can be a moral issue. But me being one who does not necessarily believe that laws are morally based - as someone else previously stated - I would generally think of my homebrew as my property to do what I please with. Until I start marketing it and purposely trying to compete with other breweries, I think it is bull**** to think my gift to a friend of a sixer is really gonna make a dent in the market.

And does it count as gifting it if I have a party and everyone at the party is drinking my homebrew? Or does it count at "personal use" since I am providing entertainment and hydration with it?

the Goose Island IPA is delicious. And yes, I know they are now an A-B Inbev Co. That doesn't mean it isn't delicious though.

A previous poster said that being moral and following the law were separate things if I read right. I disagree to an extent. I think obeying or not obeying laws is a moral issue but then again I drive over the speed limit so I see both sides I suppose.

 

[janivar123]

More philosophically, I can understand that to some people following the laws in your area can be a moral issue. But me being one who does not necessarily believe that laws are morally based - as someone else previously stated - I would generally think of my homebrew as my property to do what I please with. Until I start marketing it and purposely trying to compete with other breweries, I think it is bull**** to think my gift to a friend of a sixer is really gonna make a dent in the market.

And does it count as gifting it if I have a party and everyone at the party is drinking my homebrew? Or does it count at "personal use" since I am providing entertainment and hydration with it?

the Goose Island IPA is delicious. And yes, I know they are now an A-B Inbev Co. That doesn't mean it isn't delicious though.

Well i dont know about state laws as we dont have states here
But if you host a party in your home it is not gifting to supply the drink

Here btw it is not legal to sell alcohol without a licence.(you cant even shop for a friend legally)
And you can only give away alcohol if it has been taxed

Beer is also classefied as a barly/hops beverage up to 7%abv just to make it easy for us

 

[Killercal]

how is this for an answer....Brew it for your friends and get them to pay you money for the beer. You don't tell anyone and have your friends do the same. Since your friends like the homebrew and are getting it for a hell of a lot cheaper then the crap beer you get from the store and since they like getting cheap beer, if you tell them not to say anything about the money part then they won't be telling anyone.

 

[MaxOut]

It’s very common for brewing clubs to get together and brew as a group. They all pitch in on ingredients and split up the beer. Sometimes there is a no show who actually pitched in. Nobodies keeping track of who pitched the yeast and for what it’s worth who cares. No one is selling the beer for profit. In my opinion it’s no different than your buddies reimbursing you for picking up beer at a liquor store. Don’t make it a regular thing and you’re not doing it for profit. If you feel it’s morally incorrect than you don’t need anyone on this forum to convince you otherwise. Just don’t do it. I personally wouldn’t think any less of you if you did and I doubt your friends will either.

 

[Homercidal]

It’s very common for brewing clubs to get together and brew as a group. They all pitch in on ingredients and split up the beer. Sometimes there is a no show who actually pitched in. Nobodies keeping track of who pitched the yeast and for what it’s worth who cares. No one is selling the beer for profit. In my opinion it’s no different than your buddies reimbursing you for picking up beer at a liquor store. Don’t make it a regular thing and you’re not doing it for profit. If you feel it’s morally incorrect than you don’t need anyone on this forum to convince you otherwise. Just don’t do it. I personally wouldn’t think any less of you if you did and I doubt your friends will either.

Well, technically, if you pitch the yeast there, it's breaking the law.

I understand the morality issue. I don't mind bending a few of the small laws like this since I'm not brewing anywhere NEAR the limit and I also know the chances that anyone in my town will give a rat fart.

In Michigan it's legal to gift 20 gallons to a person. As I read the law that's 20 gallons PER PERSON! But it's also against eh law for a parent to provide any alcohol to their children, except for religious purposes (I think) where other states allow the parent to raise their kids.

I think the answer to the OP's questions is very clear from the standpoint of KY's Homebrewing laws.

For me, I'd just brew it for them and not tell anyone. Unless you are in a dry county. I don't know what the law says about that. It's not illegal to brew at home in your state, so the law would have to prove that there was a transfer of goods from one place to another. Just put a bucket and some hose in the other person's basement and say they did it. All you do is wash their bottles for them. Yep, it's cheating.

 

[Mikethepoolguy]

The laws are just a boundary line to separate homebrewers from pros. If you consider your time involved into the price there is no way you could sell your beer for a profit unless you were making BIG batches. If you could then you pay taxes and the govt is happy. Until then only you care.

 

[I_B_Mongo]

+1 for just doing it. There's people here everyday asking should I...can I...
Short of selling it from home, just do it. Either let them buy it first or pay you back. I highly doubt the ATF is gonna kick your front door down. If you don't put it on facebook or advertise it on the web, nobody is really going to know.

 

[UberBrewer]

Well, technically, if you pitch the yeast there, it's breaking the law.

I understand the morality issue. I don't mind bending a few of the small laws like this since I'm not brewing anywhere NEAR the limit and I also know the chances that anyone in my town will give a rat fart.

In Michigan it's legal to gift 20 gallons to a person. As I read the law that's 20 gallons PER PERSON! But it's also against eh law for a parent to provide any alcohol to their children, except for religious purposes (I think) where other states allow the parent to raise their kids.

I think the answer to the OP's questions is very clear from the standpoint of KY's Homebrewing laws.

For me, I'd just brew it for them and not tell anyone. Unless you are in a dry county. I don't know what the law says about that. It's not illegal to brew at home in your state, so the law would have to prove that there was a transfer of goods from one place to another. Just put a bucket and some hose in the other person's basement and say they did it. All you do is wash their bottles for them. Yep, it's cheating.

The federal law does not specify where you can brew. So it doesn't matter where you pitch. As long as your state or local laws don't specify a locale. There is one important line for brew clubs. That is that partnerships are allowed.

 

[skidkid267]

Since this legal deal is ongoing let me ask this. We have an event where I wanted to share a corny of IPA with my co-workers, the venue said the only way to bring our own beer is if it is donated with a non-profit charity getting the proceeds. I plan on charging $1.00 a beer and donating the profits to the "Wounded Warrior Foundation" at the base where I work. Hope I don't go to jail...

 

[LVBen]

Since this legal deal is ongoing let me ask this. We have an event where I wanted to share a corny of IPA with my co-workers, the venue said the only way to bring our own beer is if it is donated with a non-profit charity getting the proceeds. I plan on charging $1.00 a beer and donating the profits to the "Wounded Warrior Foundation" at the base where I work. Hope I don't go to jail...

I doubt you'll get in trouble... but advertising it on a public forum on the internet is probably not a very good idea.

 

[LVBen]

Since this legal deal is ongoing let me ask this. We have an event where I wanted to share a corny of IPA with my co-workers, the venue said the only way to bring our own beer is if it is donated with a non-profit charity getting the proceeds. I plan on charging $1.00 a beer and donating the profits to the "Wounded Warrior Foundation" at the base where I work. Hope I don't go to jail...

You should tell people that they can have a free beer for any donation of $1 or more.

 

[mcaple1]

hey...a tip jar is for the service...not for the product.

 

[Homercidal]

The federal law does not specify where you can brew. So it doesn't matter where you pitch. As long as your state or local laws don't specify a locale. There is one important line for brew clubs. That is that partnerships are allowed.

I believe this part refers to an individual who owns or operates a brewery and states that beer produced at the brewery may be brought home for personal use, as if the beer were produced in that home. It effectively considers 100 or 200 gallons of beer made at the brewer to be considered Homebrew as far as homebrewing laws permit.

The partnership referenced there simply means the people who operate the brewery business. It clearly states that except for the people I just mentioned, partnerships are prohibited.

Again, the law clearly states that homebrew must remain in the home except for those limited cases stated in 25.206. (Beer made under §25.205 may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use including use at organized affairs, exhibitions or competitions such as homemaker's contests, tastings or judging. Beer removed under this section may not be sold or offered for sale.)

 

[Homercidal]

Since this legal deal is ongoing let me ask this. We have an event where I wanted to share a corny of IPA with my co-workers, the venue said the only way to bring our own beer is if it is donated with a non-profit charity getting the proceeds. I plan on charging $1.00 a beer and donating the profits to the "Wounded Warrior Foundation" at the base where I work. Hope I don't go to jail...

This might be a tricky thing. It does allow for removal for ORGANIZED events. I believe that a charity event would qualify.

However, it also clearly states that it cannot be sold. I doubt you would get in trouble if the event asked for donations at the door and there just happened to be homebrew being served. Connecting the giving of the homebrew with the charging of $1 would definitely qualify as charging, or selling the beer.

Just make sure the term "Beer Tasting'" is displayed prominently...