A half joking but half serious question

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C

CPFITNESS

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So this is my latest and greatest hobby. I'm an avid golfer (5hcap) and cyclist as well. When first getting into those endeavors, I frequented a lot of forums on the topics and they were helpful. Golf and cycling are great because there is tangible measured progress. If you are getting advice from someone who is a scratch golfer you can trust in it a bit more than some guy who is a 20hcap hacker. So in home brewing is there a way to measure someones skills and abilities? I gotta say, I keep seeing people in the BEGINNERS forum talking about things like "mouthfeel" "fusels" "tannins" etc and I think to myself "these people are full of ****, they can't all really be sommeliers!!!" I remember reading golf forums and seeing somebody that is a 15hcap try to tell me about how stable the tip of a particular shaft felt and I remember thinking "really? you can tell that but you struggle to break 100?"

so how do i know when I'm getting good advice and who is blowing smoke up my ass?!
 
Post count, and you'll get feel for who knows what they're talking about...oh, and always get multiple opinions...
 
Mouthfeel, tannins and fusels, are not "advanced" brewing ideas...they're all common things, talked about in even the most basic homebrewing books, and podcasts.

:confused:
 
This is exactly what brew competitions sanctioned and judged by bjcp members is for :)

Start making some beers and sharing them with friends and family but trust in your own pallet as well. Start tasting pro beers and join a local brew club and drink craft and home brew.

For me this hobby is all about making beer that me and my friends love, i can usually tell how much people like something by how fast a keg or bottle dissapears too :)
 
Simple....trust but verify.

I'm a golfer too, and you have some of the same snobbery here that you find in golf. My best advice is to do what you have been doing..search...look...listen...try...and keep pressing on without fear.

The most important thing like in golf...is not to change to many variables at one time when making changes. Find your brewing method, much like your golf swing, and then shape it to fit your need.
 
If you post a question and somebody responds who has over 1000 posts, definitely listen to what they have to say. They have spent plenty of time on this forum and won't steer you wrong.
 
I would trust the community to speak up if someone was blowing smoke up your ass on here. Also, cross-check through other sources.
 
Don't go by post count, for the love of God! There are threads here where members have THOUSANDS of posts but rarely venture out into the brewing ones.

I'd go by what How To Brew, by John Palmer says. it's a great source of information for beginners.
 
I'm new here too, and I am finding one important thing is to differentiate between fact and opinion. There are many good brewers with vastly different opinions on best techniques.
 
As fair warning re: post count -- all posts are included in the number, including the "Tap Room", other chit chat areas and the never ending threads. Nothing against them but the # on its own does not not demonstrate any brewing prowess. just sayin'
Denny Conn is a legendary homebrewer and he does not have a ton of posts, last time I saw him posting here.
cheers.
 
ScoRas said:
There are many good brewers with vastly different opinions on best techniques.
Click to expand...

That's because there isn't just one way to get from A - B when it comes to making beer. People have been doing this for centuries, under diverse conditions, all the while making beer.
 
Just follow this workflow.


1. Does it pass the laugh test?
2. Does it pass the logic test?
3. Are there any references via the HBT Search feature?
4. Are there any references via other reputable brewing sites?
5. Has Revvy chimed in?
 
I don't think post count is the proper method of judging ability. That's like saying someone who is older is automatically better qualified for a job. I work with people age 20 to 50, and some of the old-timers aren't too bright...

I've been brewing for about three years and have only been a member on here for 2. This will be my 93rd post. If 1,000 is the cutoff then I have a ways to go before anything I say is true. I'd better get on here and flood the interweb with random crap so I can get up to 1,000.

Independent verification is the best method...
 
MyNameIsPaul said:
I'd go by what How To Brew, by John Palmer says. it's a great source of information for beginners.
Click to expand...

Expect when he's wrong, and you don't know that he's changed stuff in subsequent editions (like the autolysis bogeyman/long primaries) then you might just want to look at the online discussions are to see what the MOST RECENT thoughts on any given topics might be...what prevailing trends or wisdom might be....

Palmers admitted getting quite a few things wrong, or getting a contrary or different understanding of some things (IBU's) are another example AFTER he wrote the book.

A book is a snapshot of the author's body of knowlege and the "common wisdom" at the time the author wrote the book, which may mean 3 years before it was even published. Papazian's book is 30+ years old. The basic knowlege is good, but brewing science and experience has progressed to where some things an author believes or says at that time may no-longer be valid...even to the author.

John Palmer has changed many ideas since the online version of the book went up several years ago.

And so has CHarlie Papazian.

Most of the time when someone "revises" a book they don't necessarilly "re-write" the entire thing...and unless they annotated the changes, often all a "revised" edition has to make it up to date is a new introduction, and maybe the addition or removal of some things. But Rarely is a revision in a book a serious comb through of the entire book.

For example Charlie, JUST in the last 4 years or so, discovered the idea of using rice hulls in his mash tun to prevent stuck sparges....So just maybe he could even maybe have learned some other things in the last 30 years as well, and just not gotten around to writing about it?

I think just the opposite, that places like this with over 40,000 active participants contributing to the knowlege base, is where the best, most state of the art info can be had. Heck a lot of stuff starts here, that later ends up in the pages of BYO and Zymugy.

Nowadays a book is an old way of gaining knowledge of the prevailing thoughts. It's websites, social media, and podcasts that get updated almost daily is where you glean the latest info on the hobby.

If Palmer farts someone on here will post about it seconds after it happens. We've had stuff mentioned by one of the bigwigs at a conference that is posted here, seconds after and may not appear in writing by the author for a couple months in BYO magazine, so we may actually have had tons of discussions on it before it appears in print.
 
revvy said:
nowadays a book is an old way of gaining knowledge of the prevailing thoughts. It's websites, social media, and podcasts that get updated almost daily is where you glean the latest info on the hobby.
Click to expand...

+1
 
Revvy said:
Expect when he's wrong, and you don't know that he's changed stuff in subsequent editions (like the autolysis bogeyman/long primaries) then you might just want to look at the online discussions are to see what the MOST RECENT thoughts on any given topics might be...what prevailing trends or wisdom might be....

Palmers admitted getting quite a few things wrong, or getting a contrary or different understanding of some things (IBU's) are another example.

A book is a snapshot of the author's body of knowlege and the "common wisdom" at the time the author wrote the book, which may mean 3 years before it was even published. Papazian's book is 30+ years old. The basic knowlege is good, but brewing science and experience has progressed to where some things an author believes or says at that time may no-longer be valid...even to the author.

John Palmer has changed many ideas since the online version of the book went up several years ago.

And so has CHarlie Papazian.

Most of the time when someone "revises" a book they don't necessarilly "re-write" the entire thing...and unless they annotated the changes, often all a "revised" edition has to make it up to date is a new introduction, and maybe the addition or removal of some things. But Rarely is a revision in a book a serious comb through of the entire book.

For example Charlie, JUST in the last 4 years or so, discovered the idea of using rice hulls in his mash tun to prevent stuck sparges....So just maybe he could even maybe have learned some other things in the last 30 years as well, and just not gotten around to writing about it?

I think just the opposite, that places like this with over 40,000 active participants contributing to the knowlege base, is where the best, most state of the art info can be had. Heck a lot of stuff starts here, that later ends up in the pages of BYO and Zymugy.

Nowadays a book is an old way of gaining knowledge of the prevailing thoughts. It's websites, social media, and podcasts that get updated almost daily is where you glean the latest info on the hobby.

If Palmer farts someone on here will post about it seconds after it happens. We've had stuff mentioned by one of the bigwigs at a conference that is posted here, seconds after and may not appear in writing by the author for a couple months in BYO magazine, so we may actually have had tons of discussions on it before it appears in print.
Click to expand...


Just a good starting point was all I was saying. The online version is way old, better to buy the book nowadays if you want it.
 
i think the best way to know if the advice you're getting is solid is to do your own research. read, peruse the web, brew, document your brewing, experiment, document your experiments, pick the minds of brewers you know (here or in person), one's you know are knowledgable brewers, etc. there's tons of information out there, here on HBT and in countless other places, and it's all there for any brewer to gain knowledge from.
i'll second Revvy though, a lot of great and sometimes cutting edge info is available here on HBT. a simple search or a thread with your question will usually yield tons of great information.
 
Revvy said:
Mouthfeel, tannins and fusels, are not "advanced" brewing ideas...they're all common things, talked about in even the most basic homebrewing books, and podcasts.

:confused:
Click to expand...

Yeah, this is what I was going to say as well. They're very simple things to detect. Some flavors are like diacetyl and DMS might be harder to pick up at first, because you might not be sure what you're looking for in flavor...but once you taste it, it will be stuck in your palate forever. Tannins are easy as hell to pick out. If you're a fruit grower or tea drinker, you'll be able to pick it out instantly. Fusel is another easy one...I think most people who are drinkers of anything stronger than your garden variety pilsner have encountered this at some time. Picking up a few Belgian beers will give you the traditional esters, which also stick in your palate after having just one. Mouthfeel is as easy as knowing how it feels in your mouth, and drinking things like wine help a lot in this department. I think where most people run into problems, is when they try to convince themselves that they are tasting something, when they are not.
 
Revvy said:
I think just the opposite, that places like this with over 40,000 active participants contributing to the knowlege base, is where the best, most state of the art info can be had. Heck a lot of stuff starts here, that later ends up in the pages of BYO and Zymugy.
Click to expand...

^^This!

That is why I feel like this place is far and away better for my brewing than any book, magazine, or other piece of literature can be. Books are great for getting a rundown of a general process, and general techniques. But having the ability to have hundreds if not thousands of people read and critique your thoughts and ideas is priceless.

If you frame a question correctly and provide accurate details, you will generally get a good enough consensus from the great brewers on HBT to steer you in the correct direction.

That’s not to say that you wont find bad information here. Heck, I will admit that I have given bad advise on here from time to time, based on my knowledge at the time, and my understanding of the question at hand. You need to weigh all the responses and formulate your own plan of attack.

Lastly, be open to real life evaluations of your brew. Ask as many people as you can to try your beer, and to be honest about feedback. When people tell me that my beer tastes great, I immediately am asking follow-up questions. “But what about that slick mouthfeel you get in the aftertaste?” or “don’t you get a slight hint of apple in the first taste?”. A lot of times people just don’t want to hurt your feelings. If you don’t prod them, they will leave it at that, and will go home to their wife and say, “Wow, that guys beer is nasty”, and you will never know.

Sending brews to judged contests can be a good way to measure your skill, but unless you are sending many beers, it still has the opportunity to suffer from errors uncontrollable by you – temperature, serving, human error, etc.
 
Actually that is something that I really like about this site...the old timers still come back to the beginner forum to help out.

In addition, I've been brewing for awhile and I know I still have alot to learn so I still feel like a beginner in alot of ways.

I think you'll know if you're getting good advice because there will be a general consensus of the people that respond.
 
BiscayneBrewing said:
I think you'll know if you're getting good advice because there will be a general consensus of the people that respond.
Click to expand...

+1,000,000,000

And we'll call folks out on the bad, or out of date advice. Very few truly bad bits of info stays on here too long without getting picked up on and countered or corrected. And even if someone is stating opinion as fact, especially in a beginner thread, we'll try to clarify that it is opinion, and that there are other equally "right" ways of doing things.

I'm always concerned about folks down the line who may stumble on a thread long after the conversation has died, like new brewers actually using searching and finding some old thread. That's why I often stay in some of the "frays" that happen here, citing facts with links and such...it's not so much to convince the person arguing in a thread or the OP...it's those folks 6 months or 4 years from now, who are looking for some info, and might not see all the other discussions. I want them to see the sources where our info is coming from.

Like those "I got sick from my homebrew threads" a bunch of us always want to make sure that scared new brewers down the line, know that nothing pathogenic can exist in beer, and as inevitably happens someone gets argumentative in it, saying "what about this..." we usual have citations and other info to dispute it. People may get torked at us for doing it....but it's because we want to make sure accurate information is available....
 
We're from New York.... We have a "B S" filter.

However an analogy my father likes to use: " You're getting on an airplane, there are 2 pilots, one has been licensed for 20 years, the other for 2 years. Now everyone would naturally pick the 20 year veteran pilot. However... what if I then told you the 20 year pilot has logged a total of 500 hours in flight, and the 2 year pilot has logged 5,000. Who would you fly with now?"

Years (and posts) don't count for hours logged actually doing. For example, ive only started brewing dec 6th of 2011. To date i've chalked up 40 gallons and have no intention of slowing down and in 2 1/2 months Ive learned a tremendous amount due to hours logged. Reading and surfing helpped lots, but we can't brew it for you.
 
I think you use two simple tests... 1) does that poster have at least 5,660 posts and 2) do they have a super cool witty avatar. That should tell you everything you need to know about that person. Look at Revvy... see? case closed.


Nah... I found the best way to sort through information is to simply have the person explain what they are talking about in a bit of detail and then have others jump in (which will almost always happen instantly). If someone just makes a claim that sounds off the wall, have them explain it to you in detail and really get into the reasoning. It helps you understand a lot deeper and it gives some level of comfort that the person knows what they are talking about.

That said... there are a ton of slightly different beliefs based on a ton of different experiences and two folks that have slightly different beliefs might BOTH be right.

Lastly.... you have folks who really know what they are talking about that might also be wrong on occasion. Just because someone is an "expert", that doesn't mean they are right 100% of the time (see Revvy's comments on Palmer).

trial and error within YOUR environment, YOUR circumstances and YOUR particular taste is really the only way to get things 100% completely nailed down. Beer isn't golf where you have a set score. You either like the end result or you don't... and just cause you do, that doesn't mean the next person will.
 
Just a thought with respect to using online resources versus a book: while the online information may be more up to date, in my opinion there are distinct advantages to using a published book, particularly as a beginner. The reason comes down to a combination of completeness, self-consistency, and level of expertise. A book, while it may become dated, can be relied upon to have at least been correct enough that its instructions reliably produced quality outcomes. Its techniques are a combination that work together, and its author most likely is an experienced brewer who has done a lot of work to come up with the best instruction he can.

Trying to jump into web advice can be difficult. There are many conflicting pieces of information, which as has been pointed out, is both because there are many right ways to do things and because best practices evolve with time. However, it's rare to find a detailed description of a complete process in a forum. Usually you come across individual discussions that concern only a small piece of the process. If you're lucky, there's enough background to put it in context, but in many cases it can be hard to figure out how to combine the various pieces of advice into a coherent brewing procedure.

Occasionally you do find more complete resources (such as the stickied procedure descriptions on this site). However, these can suffer from the same essential problem as a book, albeit with a lower effort to update from time to time. But still, there's a bit of a conflict between "tried and true" and "latest and greatest."

I'm a scientist by trade, and there's a similar situation there, too. The best, current information about the state of the art is only to be found in recent journal articles. If you're going to be successful, those are what you need to be reading. However, you can't get started by studying last week's research articles---you first need a solid grounding from the textbooks. Sure, some of what you find in those is out of date, but they are much better at providing a full background. Once you've got a solid grounding, you can start using the more recent information to fix up the shortcomings of the textbooks and bring yourself to the cutting edge of ideas and knowledge.
 
Book learning is great, but sometimes it just comes down to elbow grease...trying something out and asking the advice from others that have done the same. Also, I read BYO and Zymurgy, which I consider to be reputable magazines. Some of the articles come from authors of books, but some come from people on the different brewing forums. If you take their advice in a magazine, why not a forum? Also, there is a lot of practical knowledge that you can get from other forum members who have entered and won competitions. I see some people on here with like 20 posts that have taken gold. What always fascinates me, is the experience that people bring from other hobbies or prior work experience. I always love to see people in the DIY section that have 15 posts and are welding and grinding brew benches, or wiring up panels...it's awesome.
 
Don't go by post count. I've seen members with 100's of posts giving advice before they brewed their first batch. I think for the most part anything after the first 10 responses in a thread is redundant. Like this one:D
 
As a noob, I'd say take the information that seems to be standard on this board, and then brew a lot. But don't make sweeping changes to your method with every batch you brew. Change one variable at a time to see what difference it makes. That's what I'm trying to do. Does this make sense to the vets?
 
lol, like I said guys, I've spent a lot of time on golf and cycling forums so I definately know that post count doesn't mean ****! People spending so much time talking about golf and cycling instead of getting out and really doing it.

As for tannins and that stuff, I'm not saying that its major advanced stuff I'm just saying that I can't help but feel like some people are talking out their ass saying that they notice all these different things or they are just rehashing stuff that they have heard; not to say that it isn't true but have they actually experienced it for themselves.

now with all that said, I do agree, online forums are awesome. I did learn a ton about golf and cycling after wading through the BS and these forums seem to be some of the largest and most active of any forums I've been on. A wealth of info and I've just scratched the surface. looking forward to learning more. So I guess I'll go back to one part of my question which was sort of answered. How are homebrewers "ranked" if you will? someone mentioned people enter competitions and stuff like that. In fact, an old friend from high school is very into brewing (i think he is on here, but not sure of his screenname) and he won first place in one of the contests he entered and after tasting his winning brew I understood why, it was amazing. Who judges these contests, what are some of the bigger contests around or is it just a lot of informal type of contests?
 
Competitions are either "sanctioned" by the AHA or can be informal. AHA comps require judges, for the most part, to be BJCP certified and that certification is a pretty strenuous certification to get.

I still think you are trying a bit to quantify something that is more art than science though. Sure, a beer can be technically stronger than other beers but at the end of the day, even BJCP judges have different palates. We have two national BJCP judges in our club. One can't taste diacytl AT ALL and one is hyper sensitive.

It is easy to get caught up in trying to make a "perfect pint" but, personally, i think that is an impossible task because "perfect" means different things to different people. Like I was saying before, beer isn't golf and it can't be quantified as such. It is about what you like and your ability to make it consistantly... And understand why it is coming out the way it is.
 
I tend to go with whatever Revvy says, except when I like Yooper's answer better. :)

Really, though, just here to +1 the consensus idea. The correct answer to your question of who do I listen to is "no one.". No one person here knows everything or holds every opinion. Any one person can be right or wrong. But the combined knowledge of the hive mind is generally right every time.
 
Cape Brewing said:
Competitions are either "sanctioned" by the AHA or can be informal. AHA comps require judges, for the most part, to be BJCP certified and that certification is a pretty strenuous certification to get.

I still think you are trying a bit to quantify something that is more art than science though. Sure, a beer can be technically stronger than other beers but at the end of the day, even BJCP judges have different palates. We have two national BJCP judges in our club. One can't taste diacytl AT ALL and one is hyper sensitive.

It is easy to get caught up in trying to make a "perfect pint" but, personally, i think that is an impossible task because "perfect" means different things to different people. Like I was saying before, beer isn't golf and it can't be quantified as such. It is about what you like and your ability to make it consistantly... And understand why it is coming out the way it is.
Click to expand...

just to let you know, I'm from Brockton. I live in NYC now but I still root for the Sox, C's and Pats. Just don't want you to see my location and try to steer me wrong!

I hear what your saying, makes perfect sense. truthfully, all i care about is making beer that tastes good to me. Not many of my friends are beer connoiseurs like myself but I could care less. I'll let them try some, and if they like it great, if not, oh well. As long as I like, it's cool. I just want to make good beer though; human nature is for people to force themselves into thinking they like what they've made just because they've made it and don't want to acknowledge their failures. I want to make good brews!
 
Read as much as you can and try to understand as much of the process as you can and then it is simply trial and error... the real trick is when you can make a beer, follow the details of that beer from the brew session, through fermentation and serving and anticipate what it is going to taste like.

You might make a beer and overshoot your strike temp by a bit and think, "hmm... this beer might end up a bit sweeter than I had intended" and... then... when it is done... and you drink it, if you can tell that it is a bit sweeter than it should be... you're there. THAT is becoming a "scratch golfer" in brewing (in my opinion). Once you are there across the spectrum of what it takes to make a beer, then you've got it down.

Also... once you are at that point, you can start making beers up. You can sit at a bar and have a commercial beer and think, "this is good... I like what they did with this but I would dry it out a bit more" (or whatever change you want to make) and then you can go home, load up your rig and make the beer you just had in your head.

... but again... that beer might be PERFECT as to EXACTLY what you wanted to make... but that doesn't mean people would like it or that it would win any competitions.
 
Brewing really isn't about ranking or becoming "elite" or some other hobo jobo. It's really just about making something (beer) that you enjoy, and the joy of doing it yourself. I've only been brewing for almost a year now, but I've found a process that I'm comfortable with and has proven itself to produce good results, but I'm always on here trying to learn even more. I like to share what I've found to produce good beer for me in the past, but some on here do tend to just repeat what they've heard without any personal experience on the subject. It's pretty easy to eventually figure out what some of this misinformation is, but that's for another time and thread.

That said, beer is very subjective. For example, I know a lot of people like SN Torpedo. I would rather take a PBR or Schlitz over it, and I tend to absolutely love IPAs. Does that mean it's a bad IPA? No, it just means I don't like it so I don't ever buy it. There's plenty of other examples of the style out there that I like a lot more.

So what I'm getting at I guess is, the only way you can really trust somebody's reply on here is to go taste some of their homebrew and if you like it you can add them to your list of trusted sources :D
 

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