5500W BK and 2000W HLT

[Sublime8365]

So I'm looking to replace my control panel and looking to upgrade from 120V to 240V. Below I've modified one of P-J's diagrams to demonstrate the key change(s) that I'm trying to make. This is not my final diagram but I'm looking to confirm that my thinking on how to handle the heating elements is fine. How does it look?

Few questions/comments:
-Does having a 50A source affect anything within the wiring or equipment needed? I'm basically planning out everything as if it was the same as the original 30A design, with a max of 24A being pulled at once. The reason I will have a 50A source is because I'm installing the source in my garage so I want to future proof the breaker for use with an electric car. The only thing I'd change regarding equipment is using an oven cord rather than a dry cord. The 50A also gives me the advantage to use 2000w instead of 1500w that I assume I'd have to use with 30A (since it would be running on 120VAC/15A circuit otherwise)
-The reason I'm looking to do 2000w instead of another 5500w or 4500w is because the HLT that I currently have is too small for a larger element. I have plans to upgrade in the future but don't want to spend the money now. (I'm planning ahead though and will only use one pump for now and re purpose the 2nd 120V receptacle for a 2nd pump later when I switch to two 5500w elements)

 

[doug293cz]

If you are going to use a 50A breaker, you need to use 6 gauge wire. However, you have a selector switch that only allows one element to be on at a time. Since that is the case, you could just use a 30A breaker, and go with 10 gauge wire (much easier to work with.) The thick wire needs to be used for all un-fused circuit branches. If a branch is fused, it can use smaller wire, as long as the wire is rated for at least as many amps as the fuse on the branch.

Brew on

 

[Sublime8365]

If you are going to use a 50A breaker, you need to use 6 gauge wire. However, you have a selector switch that only allows one element to be on at a time. Since that is the case, you could just use a 30A breaker, and go with 10 gauge wire (much easier to work with.) The thick wire needs to be used for all un-fused circuit branches. If a branch is fused, it can use smaller wire, as long as the wire is rated for at least as many amps as the fuse on the branch.

Brew on

Thanks. My plan is to use the 10 gauge wire but keep the 50A source. There's no issue with that right? since I won't be pulling more than 22-24 amps at a time I think I'm good. As mentioned, the reason for the 50A breaker is because I have plans to buy an electric car in the next few years. I'm hoping my expectations on the Tesla Model 3 don't let me down

Does the wiring change for the HLT contactor look fine though?

 

[dyqik]

For the HLT, you don't really need a ULWD element (nothing to scorch, and you can easier clean any limescale deposits occasionally), so you may find a more powerful (and cheap) medium/high WD element that will fit in your HLT until you upgrade. Then you might as well build out the HLT controls to handle 25A 240V now.

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks. My plan is to use the 10 gauge wire but keep the 50A source. There's no issue with that right? since I won't be pulling more than 22-24 amps at a time I think I'm good. As mentioned, the reason for the 50A breaker is because I have plans to buy an electric car in the next few years. I'm hoping my expectations on the Tesla Model 3 don't let me down

Does the wiring change for the HLT contactor look fine though?

I dont follow you? if your wiring is 10 gauge then you need to have a 30a breaker at the panel source feeding this wire... the 30a breaker protects this circuit from overload. if you were going to run a 50a circuit you need 6 gauge wire for that circuit. 10 gauge wire could overheat and burst into flames before the 50a breaker would trip if anything went wrong with your panel (say a contactor stuck in the on position)

unless you are saying you have 6 gauge already running to a 50a outlet in your garage and thats what your 10 gauge control panel power cord is plugged into? in that case you still want a 30a breaker with gfci somewhere between the panel and 50a outlet.

 

[Sublime8365]

unless you are saying you have 6 gauge already running to a 50a outlet in your garage and thats what your 10 gauge control panel power cord is plugged into? in that case you still want a 30a breaker with gfci somewhere between the panel and 50a outlet.

Yes, I'm saying that the 50a outlet will have 6 gauge running from the panel to the outlet.

I'm just confused as to why I need the 30a breaker if the 50a is gfci protected. with the way I'm building my control panel, there's no way I'd be running more than 25 amps at a time during my brew.

 

[Sublime8365]

For the HLT, you don't really need a ULWD element (nothing to scorch, and you can easier clean any limescale deposits occasionally), so you may find a more powerful (and cheap) medium/high WD element that will fit in your HLT until you upgrade. Then you might as well build out the HLT controls to handle 25A 240V now.

That's true, I could do that and I'll look into that. But I already have a HLT with a 2000w element installed so I won't be sinking any money into parts that will become obsolete in my future design.

 

[Bobby_M]

Planning to pull 30 amps is different than a fault doing it. The safer way to do it is to run the 6 gauge 50 amp circuit to a sub panel where you put a 30 amp breaker and any other branch circuit breakers you need in the future. Since you mention non brewing uses for the extra capacity, it would be better not to use a control panel as your sub.

 

[mabrungard]

Since you will have a 50a circuit, I recommend that you keep the higher wattage HLT element. One of the great things about high wattage is that you will heat the HLT up much faster. Since you don't heat sparging water at the same time your boiling, you don't have to worry about overloading your 50a circuit.

 

[Sublime8365]

Planning to pull 30 amps is different than a fault doing it. The safer way to do it is to run the 6 gauge 50 amp circuit to a sub panel where you put a 30 amp breaker and any other branch circuit breakers you need in the future. Since you mention non brewing uses for the extra capacity, it would be better not to use a control panel as your sub.

Can you explain the first sentence better? thanks for trying to explain but I'm not quite following everything just yet.

Maybe it would be better if I asked a different question. Let's say I just bought one of the assembled 30A control panels from electric brewery (http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel). Then instead of using a 30A dryer cord to plug into a 30A receptacle/power source, I used a 50A oven cord into a 50A power source. Everything else from the control panel receptacles to the interior parts is the same (and I'd still only be running 24 amps). What is the safety or equipment concern with this?

How is this different from, say, building a 1500w heat stick with 14 AWG for use on a 15A circuit and then turning around and plugging it into a 20A circuit?

 

[augiedoggy]

Can you explain the first sentence better? thanks for trying to explain but I'm not quite following everything just yet.

Maybe it would be better if I asked a different question. Let's say I just bought one of the assembled 30A control panels from electric brewery (http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel). Then instead of using a 30A dryer cord to plug into a 30A receptacle/power source, I used a 50A oven cord into a 50A power source. Everything else from the control panel receptacles to the interior parts is the same (and I'd still only be running 24 amps). What is the safety or equipment concern with this?

How is this different from, say, building a 1500w heat stick with 14 AWG for use on a 15A circuit and then turning around and plugging it into a 20A circuit?

using a 30a cord from the outlet to the control panel is fine but the issue is whats going to protect the control panel and pop the breaker if there is an issue that would trip it, your ground fault will work but if something were to go wrong and a sticking relay causesyour panel to draw say 45amps from the 30a cord you have a fire hazard... its best to install fuses or breakers to protect the actual panel and heaters from an overload...
It will work without it but its safer to have a breaker that will trip if theres an issue with the panel. many large electronics devices like this has its own subpanel or fuses installed inside the device to protect components.

having a 23a 5500w element with nothing but a 50a breaker on its circuit is not ideal.

 

[Sublime8365]

So if I understand what a sticking relay is correctly - this would be if, for example, my contactor became corroded or something and started sparking. Then my panel could conceivably pull more than 30 amps and overheat?

 

[Sublime8365]

So could I install a 15 amp fuse to each hot wire to protect the control panel?

 

[jeffmeh]

So could I install a 15 amp fuse to each hot wire to protect the control panel?

No. A 30a fuse or breaker to protect the 10awg wire from an overcurrent situation.

 

[Bobby_M]

With electrical stuff, the safety guidelines play to the worst case scenarios, not the mundane daily usage. It's your house so it's up to you to decide whether to design to normal use or worst case scenario. Every time you step down to a significantly lower current handling capacity conductor, some kind of circuit protection is the safest way to do it.

If you had a 50 amp capable circuit all the way out to a receptacle and then plugged a 10 amp drawing device with a 16 gauge cord into it, you're not going to have an obvious problem. If the device starts shorting out and pulling 30 amps, the 16g cord is going to overheat, melt, short out, etc. It may burst into flames before further shorting breaks the wire or trips the 50amp breaker upstream. The example of plugging in 15 amps into a 20 amp circuit is a little different because the upstream CB is much closer in current to the planned usage.

 

[Sublime8365]

Thanks Bobby, now I'm all up to speed.

Would you advise against simply wiring up a 30A fuse to the power cord (outside the control panel) to account for this protection, or is that really not the way to go.

Problem I have with the going the sub panel route is that I do not want 2 outlets in my garage - plus the cost of the extra work and equipment. If there's no truly safe design to use a 50 amp source with the control box I'm designing, I'll probably just have a 30 amp circuit installed and then when I get an electric car (still 2 years away), I'll figure out an adapter solution.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002UC6QRW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003DFIW1S/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks Bobby, now I'm all up to speed.

Would you advise against simply wiring up a 30A fuse to the power cord (outside the control panel) to account for this protection, or is that really not the way to go.

Problem I have with the going the sub panel route is that I do not want 2 outlets in my garage - plus the cost of the extra work and equipment. If there's no truly safe design to use a 50 amp source with the control box I'm designing, I'll probably just have a 30 amp circuit installed and then when I get an electric car (still 2 years away), I'll figure out an adapter solution.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002UC6QRW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003DFIW1S/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It would be easier to put the fuse inside the panel or use a subpanel but it would work.

 

[dyqik]

Thanks Bobby, now I'm all up to speed.

Would you advise against simply wiring up a 30A fuse to the power cord (outside the control panel) to account for this protection, or is that really not the way to go.

Problem I have with the going the sub panel route is that I do not want 2 outlets in my garage - plus the cost of the extra work and equipment. If there's no truly safe design to use a 50 amp source with the control box I'm designing, I'll probably just have a 30 amp circuit installed and then when I get an electric car (still 2 years away), I'll figure out an adapter solution.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002UC6QRW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003DFIW1S/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

If you are concerned about running a 30A appliance on a 50A circuit, one interim solution is to have the circuit installed using wire suitable for a 50A circuit, but install a 30A breaker in the main panel to protect it. Then upgrading to 50A later is just a case of changing out the breaker (and maybe the receptacle). The wire will cost a bit more than 10g for a 30A circuit, but you won't have to pay to run wire twice.

You need a GFCI breaker in there somewhere as well, of course.

 

[Sublime8365]

It would be easier to put the fuse inside the panel or use a subpanel but it would work.

Thanks. I'll probably do that. Would I need a fuse on both hot wires or just one?

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks. I'll probably do that. Would I need a fuse on both hot wires or just one?

Both to be safe

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks Bobby, now I'm all up to speed.

Would you advise against simply wiring up a 30A fuse to the power cord (outside the control panel) to account for this protection, or is that really not the way to go.

Problem I have with the going the sub panel route is that I do not want 2 outlets in my garage - plus the cost of the extra work and equipment. If there's no truly safe design to use a 50 amp source with the control box I'm designing, I'll probably just have a 30 amp circuit installed and then when I get an electric car (still 2 years away), I'll figure out an adapter solution.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002UC6QRW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003DFIW1S/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Simplest solution would be to run a 6g cord into your control panel, with two 30A fuses (one for each leg) inside the panel. On the other side of the fuses, you can drop down to 10g wire.

Brew on