50 amp "plug and play" kettle questions

[bizarrojosh]

Hello!

My wife is a potter and she uses a 50 amp electrical receptacle for her kiln. I would like to build my own electric kettle and use that outlet for my kettle and element.

My question is this. If I am using the standard 5500w 240 element and cord rated for 30amps and attach the correct male connection to plug into the receptacle, will I risk any thing? In other words, if I just want to "plug and play," so to speak, is there anything else I need to consider?

Thanks for the help and if this has been addressed please redirect me to the source!

Cheers

 

[USAFSooner]

You should be fine. Just wire up the appropriate male plug to the end of your cord and plug it in. You need to make sure that you use the appropriate gage cord rated for the current you will draw.

 

[bizarrojosh]

You should be fine. Just wire up the appropriate male plug to the end of your cord and plug it in. You need to make sure that you use the appropriate gage cord rated for the current you will draw.

What gage cord would be appropriate? If I'm just pulling 30 amps tops could I go with a 30 amp cord or would I need to upgrade to something higher? Is there even such a thing?

Thanks for your help!

 

[doug293cz]

What gage cord would be appropriate? If I'm just pulling 30 amps tops could I go with a 30 amp cord or would I need to upgrade to something higher? Is there even such a thing?

Thanks for your help!

A 10 gauge cord will be fine.

Brew on

 

[Hex23]

is there anything else I need to consider?

If you haven't yet considered a GFCI, for your safety I'd advise you do. It sounds like you're considering plugging directly into the receptacle. So, unless the breaker has a GFCI, you should probably look for a "Spa Panel" solution for GFCI.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

You might want to consider a way to control the heat output of the element.

 

[bizarrojosh]

If you haven't yet considered a GFCI, for your safety I'd advise you do. It sounds like you're considering plugging directly into the receptacle. So, unless the breaker has a GFCI, you should probably look for a "Spa Panel" solution for GFCI.

Isn't the GFCI breaker in the electrical box right? Basically, it's there to trip if there's too much current or something goes wrong? If it's not GFCI what are the advantages of going the Spa Panel route? Thanks!

 

[bizarrojosh]

You might want to consider a way to control the heat output of the element.

What options are there for me as I don't really know. For my current purposes/budget I just need a way to get the strike water to mash temp and my wort to a boil and keep it at a boil for at most 90 minutes.

Is there a cheap but effective way to regulate heat output? What do you suggest?

 

[lschiavo]

The circuit breaker protects the wire. There is likely #6 guage wire between the breaker and the 50A receptacle. If you want to plug in a smaller cord to feed your kettle, you need to use fuses or a circuit breaker to protect the smaller wire. It is called a tap. The reduced fusing should be within 10 feet of the tap. Without additional fusing, the smaller cable feeding your kettle could draw up to 50A which would overload it.

I would consider a 50A spa panel with a range cord to plug into the receptacle. That will give you the full capacity of the receptacle to use for brewing and GFCI protection. From there, if stepping down wire size, use fuses or circuit breakers to protect the downstream wiring.

 

[HerkimerBrewer]

I did exactly what you're talking about, I plug my kettle directly into the wall. Although 50 amps is alot of power being put to a element meant for 30. My breaker box did have a 50 amp, and I switched it to a 30. It works really well, and I have done a bunch of batches this way, but i recently ordered a simple rheostat from stilldragon, as boil overs have been an issue. It does bring 7 gallons of warm water to a boil in about 15 minutes though! My natural gas burner can hardly do that!
If you can't switch it out, get a plug/cord combo meant for a electric range.
Enjoy!

 

[bizarrojosh]

The circuit breaker protects the wire. There is likely #6 guage wire between the breaker and the 50A receptacle. If you want to plug in a smaller cord to feed your kettle, you need to use fuses or a circuit breaker to protect the smaller wire. It is called a tap. The reduced fusing should be within 10 feet of the tap. Without additional fusing, the smaller cable feeding your kettle could draw up to 50A which would overload it.

I would consider a 50A spa panel with a range cord to plug into the receptacle. That will give you the full capacity of the receptacle to use for brewing and GFCI protection. From there, if stepping down wire size, use fuses or circuit breakers to protect the downstream wiring.

Wow, this is really great information and really helpful. I do have a few questions and things I need clarified (because I'm so new to this).

So I need to find a spa panel that can plug into my outlet. This is the receptacle if anyone's curious: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-50-Amp-2-Pole-Flush-Mount-Grounding-Single-Outlet-Black-R61-05374-000/202077691

Once I've found/built the spa panel I then need to step down wire size. Should I step it down to 10 guage? What should I step it down to?

What kind of fuses/breakers should I use?

Before asking these questions I found this diagram. Is this set up basically what you are suggesting?

I really really really appreciate your, and everyone else's, help!

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Although 50 amps is alot of power being put to a element meant for 30.

The breaker size has nothing to do with how much electricity is going through the device attached to it. An over-current protection device is just there to protect the wire from overheating.

To the OP, based on the fact the breaker is protecting the wire, the wire needs to be rated for 50 AMP or an separate over current protection device needs to be between the existing terminator (the 50 AMP 220V outlet) and any wire not rated for 50 AMPs.

 

[bizarrojosh]

The breaker size has nothing to do with how much electricity is going through the device attached to it. An over-current protection device is just there to protect the wire from overheating.

To the OP, based on the fact the breaker is protecting the wire, the wire needs to be rated for 50 AMP or an separate over current protection device needs to be between the existing terminator (the 50 AMP 220V outlet) and any wire not rated for 50 AMPs.

Thanks for the clarifications and support. What would you suggest? Build a box like the one in the diagram above?

I knew the plug and play idea was too easy haha.

 

[bizarrojosh]

I was looking for other diagrams and found this:

As with the other diagram, I'm still wondering what my best option is for stepping down the 50 safely? How exactly do I do that?

 

[HerkimerBrewer]

that's what i was getting at with the range cord, make sure your wire is rated for the right amps. I'm not an electrician.... to much power and to little wire equals fire!

 

[Onkel_Udo]

I knew the plug and play idea was too easy haha.

The easiest...use a 6 gauge cord and 50 amp male plug on the brew kettle.

More flexible, replace the existing 50 AMP outlet with a cheap main lug breaker panel with 6 or more spaces like this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...th-Surface-Mount-Cover-QO612L100SCP/100148926

FYI, if you go QO two things to know...used breakers are plentiful and you have to add a ground bus (usually about $8). If you add any sub panel, you have remove the tab that bonds neutral to ground. Lastly, if the run is over 16' (I think), you may have to use a main breaker panel instead of Main lug.

Re-use the 50 amp outlet to plug the kiln into.

Add a 30 AMP GFCI breaker and 30 amp outlet.

Add one or more 110V 20 amp circuits because, well, you can never have enough outlets.

 

[lschiavo]

A spa panel like this will give you a place to plug in a 30A breaker and easily step down.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GLCY52/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It looks like you only have a 3-wire receptacle for the kiln. There are some wiring diagrams out there for connecting a spa panel to a 3-wire feeder. Check at the panel or receptacle as there may be an unused ground or neutral. A 4-wire feeder would be best IMO.

 

[lschiavo]

an separate over current protection device needs to be between the existing terminator (the 50 AMP 220V outlet) and any wire not rated for 50 AMPs.

This is good practice but, using tap rules, you can place your smaller overcurrent device after the tap is made.

 

[HerkimerBrewer]

this is the controller I'm going to use, it's rated for 40amps. I like to keep things super simple...this is basically like turning down your stove.
This is basically all the same parts as your controller drawing, just the dial replaces the pid.

http://stilldragon.com/index.php/diy-controller-kit.html

I know there are other posts on this forum about this, so sorry for any repeat info!

 

[Onkel_Udo]

This is good practice but, using tap rules, you can place your smaller overcurrent device after the tap is made.

Agreed...just get more complicated when you go outside the "norm". I still think the simplest is use a bigger cord.

 

[Hex23]

A spa panel like this will give you a place to plug in a 30A breaker and easily step down.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GLCY52/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It looks like you only have a 3-wire receptacle for the kiln. There are some wiring diagrams out there for connecting a spa panel to a 3-wire feeder. Check at the panel or receptacle as there may be an unused ground or neutral. A 4-wire feeder would be best IMO.

I don't know how that Spa panel is configured internally. But if it's like all the ones I know, the extra spaces for breakers are not GFCI protected by the main breaker in the spa panel. Common practice is to put a smaller breaker downstream of the main Spa panel GCFI (often done with a DIN rail breaker in a separate control panel).

However, another alternative (one I did in my brewery) would be to get a Spa panel with a GFCI breaker compatible with your main panel in your home, then move that GFCI breaker to the main panel. You could reuse the spa panel to house smaller breakers which would be protected by the new GFCI breaker now in your main panel (this is what I did). Or (probably more common) build a control panel to house DIN rail breakers.

 

[lschiavo]

I don't know how that Spa panel is configured internally. But if it's like all the ones I know, the extra spaces for breakers are not GFCI protected by the main breaker in the spa panel.

You are probably right. I have never used one but that makes sense. I guess you could install a GFCI breaker in the extra space but it would probably be cheaper and more usefull to use a small loadcenter in that case.

 

[ajdelange]

To the OP, based on the fact the breaker is protecting the wire, the wire needs to be rated for 50 AMP or an separate over current protection device needs to be between the existing terminator (the 50 AMP 220V outlet) and any wire not rated for 50 AMPs.

So, for example, if I plug a 100W ( < 1 amp) trouble light into a 120 V outlet on 20 A circuit I need to install a separate overcurrent device unless the cord is 12 gauge or larger? I didn't know that and, apparently, neither do the manufacturers of most of the devices I have in my house.

Does this make any sense? If you buy a 14 gauge extension cord is it labeled 'Don't plug into a 20 amp circuit'. No, it says 'Don't use for loads over 15 amps'.
If I look at the DC power supply for one of my disc drives that has a line cord is that cord 12 gauge even though the device draws less than an amp.? No. Are there any current limiting devices in the feed? No.

Perhaps I'm not understanding something.

 

[lschiavo]

So, for example, if I plug a 100W ( < 1 amp) trouble light into a 120 V outlet on 20 A circuit I need to install a separate overcurrent device unless the cord is 12 gauge or larger? I didn't know that and, apparently, neither do the manufacturers of most of the devices I have in my house.

Does this make any sense? If you buy a 14 gauge extension cord is it labeled 'Don't plug into a 20 amp circuit'. No, it says 'Don't use for loads over 15 amps'.
If I look at the DC power supply for one of my disc drives that has a line cord is that cord 12 gauge even though the device draws less than an amp.? No. Are there any current limiting devices in the feed? No.

Perhaps I'm not understanding something.

I think you're not understanding the significance of the UL label and the difference between manufactured electrical products and field installed wiring.

 

[ajdelange]

I think you're not understanding the significance of the UL label and the difference between manufactured electrical products and field installed wiring.

Let's look at the quote again:

To the OP, based on the fact the breaker is protecting the wire, the wire needs to be rated for 50 AMP or an separate over current protection device needs to be between the existing terminator (the 50 AMP 220V outlet) and any wire not rated for 50 AMPs.

This says, pretty clearly, that, in the poster's opinion, my disk drive power supply (UL approved), if plugged into a 20 amp amp outlet needs either a current limiting device or wire sized to carry 20 amps.

Now if the 50 amp breaker feeds a sub panel and the sub panel a branch circuit or circuits then those circuits must be protected by breakers sized to protect the wires to the outlets.

Someone apparently doesn't understand the difference between UL and NEC but I'm not sure it's me.

 

[bizarrojosh]

so this is all kind of getting convoluted.

Maybe I should ask this instead.


What is the cheapest/safest/simplest way to use my 50amp outlet? In other words, what is the least amount of work, cheapest, but also "safe"?


What are the downsides of just using a 6 guage or 10 guage wire that plugs directly into the wall on one side and is connected to a single 5500w element on the other?

 

[lschiavo]

Let's look at the quote again:


This says, pretty clearly, that, in the poster's opinion, my disk drive power supply (UL approved), if plugged into a 20 amp amp outlet needs either a current limiting device or wire sized to carry 20 amps.

Now if the 50 amp breaker feeds a sub panel and the sub panel a branch circuit or circuits then those circuits must be protected by breakers sized to protect the wires to the outlets.

Someone apparently doesn't understand the difference between UL and NEC but I'm not sure it's me.

I guess I assumed his statement was excluding manufactured labled products as we were talking about something the OP was going to assemble himself.

The NEC seems to be the reference used around here as it should be.

 

[Bobby_M]

Off topic... the peanut gallery is made up of both nervous nellies and safety-be-damned renagades. The answer is somewhere in the middle.

 

[lschiavo]

so this is all kind of getting convoluted.

Maybe I should ask this instead.


What is the cheapest/safest/simplest way to use my 50amp outlet? In other words, what is the least amount of work, cheapest, but also "safe"?


What are the downsides of just using a 6 guage or 10 guage wire that plugs directly into the wall on one side and is connected to a single 5500w element on the other?

That can happen in these electrical threads.

If it were me, I think I would use your existing 50A receptacle wiring to feed a small subpanel as suggested earlier. Install the existing 50A receptacle under the panel for the kiln and install a 30A GFCI breaker/30A receptacle/cord/plugs to feed your brewing equipment. Not necessarily the least amount of work or cheapest but best IMO.

For the downsides, just plugging in will not get you GFCI protection which is highly recommended (unless you change the breaker in the main panel). I would not recommend a #10 cord as it is undersized for the 50A receptacle.

You really do not want to overfuse your element too much either so I think having it protected at 30A is best.

 

[ajdelange]

so this is all kind of getting convoluted.

That's likely beacuse...

cheapest/safest/simplest

...are conflicting requirements.

What are the downsides of just using a 6 guage or 10 guage wire that plugs directly into the wall on one side and is connected to a single 5500w element on the other?

That is the simplest certainly and probably, therefore, the cheapest but not the safest. Suppose you come into your brewery area and find sparks erupting from your kettle. You would have to go to the outlet to unplug it or to the main panel to flip the breaker to shut things off. Suppose there is a corroded primary neutral connection on a power pole near your house. Suppose there is a leakage from one phase of the heater to your wort. All of these pose potential threats which can be removed, some more easily than others (and at less expense). For belt and suspenders protection you would install a sub panel with GFCI breakers for all loads (including one properly sized for your heater element), tear up the floor and install a grid of pipes or wires all tied to your grounding system and replace the floor, and control to power to the kettle with a contactor using properly configured start/stop pushbuttons, the latter with multiple stations daisy chained around the room.

Nobody here would do any of that. Perhaps you can be guided by looking at your wife's installation. Is there any disconnecting means (other than the plug) for her kiln(s), etc.? Keep in mind that a big difference between your application and hers is the possibility of a wet floor.

 

[Chrisl77]

so this is all kind of getting convoluted.

Maybe I should ask this instead.


What is the cheapest/safest/simplest way to use my 50amp outlet? In other words, what is the least amount of work, cheapest, but also "safe"?


What are the downsides of just using a 6 guage or 10 guage wire that plugs directly into the wall on one side and is connected to a single 5500w element on the other?

Plugging a 5500 watt element directly into the wall without atleast a way to control the power output will produce an insane boil. I have a 20 gallon pot with a 5500 watt element in it. If I were to set the element to full power I would get a very large boil off rate. Probably over 2 gallons an hour.

 

[Bobby_M]

So, for example, if I plug a 100W ( < 1 amp) trouble light into a 120 V outlet on 20 A circuit I need to install a separate overcurrent device unless the cord is 12 gauge or larger? I didn't know that and, apparently, neither do the manufacturers of most of the devices I have in my house.

Does this make any sense? If you buy a 14 gauge extension cord is it labeled 'Don't plug into a 20 amp circuit'. No, it says 'Don't use for loads over 15 amps'.
If I look at the DC power supply for one of my disc drives that has a line cord is that cord 12 gauge even though the device draws less than an amp.? No. Are there any current limiting devices in the feed? No.

Perhaps I'm not understanding something.

I'm not well versed in NEC rules so I'm admittedly pulling this one out of my ass. I see where you're going with this. However, plugging a UL listed 1 amp draw device into a 15/20 amp branch circuit is different than plugging a home built high amp draw (30amp) "contraption" into a 50 amp dedicated circuit. 20 amps is a pretty big delta between cable ampacity and the next upstream overcurrect protection device.

I'm not well convinced it's an imminent danger situation and I think it's similar to splitting a 50amp capable circuit into two 23amp loads in the control panel with a simple lug/tap block without two dedicated 25amp circuit breakers.

I think the shorter the wire run, the safer I'd feel about it even if that's irrational.

Sorry for the derail OP..
To answer your question, if you demand to be protected with GFCI protection, there really is no plug and play. Could you wire an element directly to a plug and plug it in there? Yes, absolutely and it will heat liquid as you'd expect. You'd have no temp control and no power control that way.

 

[Chrisl77]

To be safe I would just build the panel in post 14. Get a din mounted 25 amp breaker that you can put inside the panel and wire it on the 2 hot wires going to the element right before it. That will give you the overload protection dedicated just to the element. I have a 2 element panel each of my elements have a 25 amp breaker like this.

Edit
What kind of budget are you working with? If your budget permits you could get one of these kits. Granted it has a little extra then you are looking for but all you need to add is a pid, enclosure, and the element stuff.

 

[ajdelange]

To answer your question, if you demand to be protected with GFCI protection, there really is no plug and play.

That reminded me of something. There is a 'plug and play' solution but wait till you see the price!
http://www.grainger.com/product/POWER-FIRST-Cord-Set-2XYT1?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/2XYR9_AS01?$smthumb$

 

[lschiavo]

That reminded me of something. There is a 'plug and play' solution but wait till you see the price!
http://www.grainger.com/product/POWER-FIRST-Cord-Set-2XYT1?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/2XYR9_AS01?$smthumb$

Thats only 30A plug and play I bet a 50A version is a few bucks more.