My friend just started a 1 gallon batch yesterday with Lavin d47 yeast a quarter tsp of yeast nutrient and 5 pounds of honey, 30 hours later their is very little airlock activity. Could it be that their is to much honey and the yeast are overwhelmed. Do we need to add more nutrient, or pitch more yeast.
5 pounds of honey, one gallon of mead?
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I can't answer as to the yeast, but even with 1118 champagne yeast I was never able to bring 4 lbs. in a gallon to anywhere near dryness, and my meads at this level were always quite sickeningly and cloyingly sweet. I can't imagine 5 lbs. in a gallon. D47 will not likely approach the alcohol level of champagne yeast, making things worse as to sickening sweetness.
bernardsmith
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There is phenomenon called "lag time" - More about that in a moment but there is another phenomenon called osmotic shock or pressure which means that the cell walls of the yeast are being asked to transport liquid from the outside of the cell into the inside. When the liquid is so dense the yeast cells simply cannot manage to do this. The solution is to step feed the yeast - You might dissolve say, 3 lbs of honey in a gallon and then when the yeast have managed to ferment most of that you might add another half pound of honey and so repeat that until the yeast cannot tolerate the alcohol or the amount of sugar they have been asked to metabolize.
Lag time is the period of time it takes the yeast to - for all intents and purposes - become acclimatized to the temperature of their environment, the density of the liquid, the pH and the like and so build up their cell walls to allow them to transport the liquid they find themselves in through cell walls to make use of the organic nutrients you have provided - including oxygen and nitrogen (there are essentially none in honey) and which they desperately need to begin metabolizing the sugars in the honey.
Do you need to add more nutrient? More yeast? More oxygen? Possibly. How much of these did you provide? Certainly providing the yeast with a solution of five pounds of honey dissolved in a gallon of water is a little like forcing a toothless crone to chew her way through a two by four... Happy, she won't be.
Lag time is the period of time it takes the yeast to - for all intents and purposes - become acclimatized to the temperature of their environment, the density of the liquid, the pH and the like and so build up their cell walls to allow them to transport the liquid they find themselves in through cell walls to make use of the organic nutrients you have provided - including oxygen and nitrogen (there are essentially none in honey) and which they desperately need to begin metabolizing the sugars in the honey.
Do you need to add more nutrient? More yeast? More oxygen? Possibly. How much of these did you provide? Certainly providing the yeast with a solution of five pounds of honey dissolved in a gallon of water is a little like forcing a toothless crone to chew her way through a two by four... Happy, she won't be.
Cavpilot2000
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In my experience, anything more than 4 lb in a gallon is too much. Even at that, you end up with a super-sweet, nearly syrupy beverage. (I like my meads sweet, not dry, but it's a tad too much for me).
You need to add water and bring the specific gravity way down. No yeast will survive in that environment. Split the batch into 2 and repitch.
Nice write up, especially the last part. I've been reading, learning, tasting, sampling mead for about 4 years. I still haven't made any, because I'm making beer! I bought 30# of honey in Colorado two years ago and still haven't done it. I do think 5 to 1 is to much.
Sorry I'm no help to the op. I've been going to do the BOMM method. Good Luck with it.
I just started a 4 pound 1 gallon batch with Red Star Premier Cuvee yeast. Got airlock activity within 20 min and its going strong but slow. Lots of people said it wouldnt work but its all about trial and error. see what works and what dont.
rcreamer0713
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4 and 5. Jeez. I dont like dry. But 3 lbs if honey. 3.5 max is perfect sweetness imo. I know everyone different. But i the sweetness in 4lbs just seems extreme to me.
Lemme know how it turns out maybe i cn make some for the old lady
Lemme know how it turns out maybe i cn make some for the old lady
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
Not sure that thinking about the amount of honey (whether 4 lbs or 5 or 3.5) is very useful - despite what some of the older recipes might suggest. The issue is not so much the total amount of honey but the potential ABV in relationship to the tolerance for alcohol of the strain of yeast you are pitching. If the yeast strain CAN in fact deal with 18% ABV (despite what the lab guarantees) then 4 lbs of honey will ferment brut dry. And if the strain of yeast because of a lack of added nutrients, oxygen and nitrogen can deal only with 10% ABV then 2.5 lbs of honey may result in a cloyingly sweet mead.
One way to make a sweet mead is to use more honey than the yeast can tolerate but another way is to aim for the ABV you want (and that might be 5%) , stabilize or filter or otherwise remove every last viable yeast cell and then backsweeten the mead. You then control the ABV and the precise sweetness. A yeast advertised as tolerating 14% alcohol can tolerate far more -and sometimes less. You are dealing with probabilities and averages, not with certainties.
One way to make a sweet mead is to use more honey than the yeast can tolerate but another way is to aim for the ABV you want (and that might be 5%) , stabilize or filter or otherwise remove every last viable yeast cell and then backsweeten the mead. You then control the ABV and the precise sweetness. A yeast advertised as tolerating 14% alcohol can tolerate far more -and sometimes less. You are dealing with probabilities and averages, not with certainties.
bernardsmith, I'm newer to meadery as well. Have been reading/researching a lot and I've often pondered how to calculate the numbers you outline. For example:
Using a typical 71b yeast w/ a published ~14% ABV tolerance, how do you calculate how much honey to add so you get a sweet and balanced mead?
Using a typical 71b yeast w/ a published ~14% ABV tolerance, how do you calculate how much honey to add so you get a sweet and balanced mead?
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
I work the other way. If I am looking for what I might call a session mead then I will use about 1.5 lbs of honey dissolved to make 1 US gallon. One pound of honey in that volume has a specific gravity of 1.035 and 1.5 lbs will have a gravity of about 1.052. A starting gravity of 1.050 when fully fermented will give me an ABV (alcohol by volume) of about 6.5%. (my rule of thumb is to multiply the SG by 131 to get the ABV - more accurately it is 131.25 but I am not calculating anything for tax purposes) That makes for a very drinkable (quaffable) mead. But the flavor is not going to be very rich so I might carbonate this; I might add spices or nuts or chocolate, I might add fruit (taking into account that fruit has sugar I may need to reduce the amount of honey).
The issue of balance means (to me) that I want the ABV, the richness of flavor, the mouthfeel (the viscosity), the tartness and the sweetness all to be well integrated. The only way I know to do that is to taste and tweak or taste and blend.
I prefer dry wines - so I don't aim for "sweetness", (a final gravity of about 1.005 is very sweet to me given the ABV I aim for) but I recently made a sour mead which I stabilized with some additional sweetness to balance the sour (closer to 1.010).
I tend to use 71B but I also use saison yeast and ale yeasts. I am not particularly interested in the alcohol tolerance of the yeast as I really have no plans to make any wine or mead above 12 or 13% ABV. I want to drink wine with a meal by the glass - not by the shot glass; and if I want to drink a mead while relaxing in my yard or after a long day I want to "quaff" the mead by the pint. Hope this helps Baabaadoo.
The issue of balance means (to me) that I want the ABV, the richness of flavor, the mouthfeel (the viscosity), the tartness and the sweetness all to be well integrated. The only way I know to do that is to taste and tweak or taste and blend.
I prefer dry wines - so I don't aim for "sweetness", (a final gravity of about 1.005 is very sweet to me given the ABV I aim for) but I recently made a sour mead which I stabilized with some additional sweetness to balance the sour (closer to 1.010).
I tend to use 71B but I also use saison yeast and ale yeasts. I am not particularly interested in the alcohol tolerance of the yeast as I really have no plans to make any wine or mead above 12 or 13% ABV. I want to drink wine with a meal by the glass - not by the shot glass; and if I want to drink a mead while relaxing in my yard or after a long day I want to "quaff" the mead by the pint. Hope this helps Baabaadoo.
Drewed
Well-Known Member
Baabaadoo.
Try using an on-line batch builder.
http://www.meadmakr.com/batch-buildr/
This one works quite well for me. Although I do find that my meads will run dryer than what it estimates. Easy enough to sweet after ferment.
Try using an on-line batch builder.
http://www.meadmakr.com/batch-buildr/
This one works quite well for me. Although I do find that my meads will run dryer than what it estimates. Easy enough to sweet after ferment.
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
Apologies to Cozmod123 if this looks like a hijacking of Cozmod's thread. Sorry - not my intention.
Ignore the number to the left of the decimal point (so 1lb of honey to make 1 gallon of must is .035 X 131 = 4.5% ABV, 1.5 pounds of honey is another 2.25 %, so about 6.5 - 6.75% ). This is approximate as some honey has more moisture and some has less and I am determining this here by estimation and calculation and not by measurement. Your hydrometer is one way to obtain a more accurate reading.
As for fruit. I use the juice rather than water to make the must and fruit juice is what fruit juice is and that is about 1.040 (about the same as 1 lb of sugar dissolved in water to make a gallon). Some fruit has more sugar content and some fruit has less but a ballpark is about 1.040 (a potential ABV of about 5.25%). Dilute the juice with water (say 1:1, and your additional gravity is about 2.6% - that is not going to be fruit forward but in a mead I assume that you want the honey to be at the front and center and not the fruit. You want the fruit to add complexity and not be the soloist. (the idea again, of appropriate integration)
Ignore the number to the left of the decimal point (so 1lb of honey to make 1 gallon of must is .035 X 131 = 4.5% ABV, 1.5 pounds of honey is another 2.25 %, so about 6.5 - 6.75% ). This is approximate as some honey has more moisture and some has less and I am determining this here by estimation and calculation and not by measurement. Your hydrometer is one way to obtain a more accurate reading.
As for fruit. I use the juice rather than water to make the must and fruit juice is what fruit juice is and that is about 1.040 (about the same as 1 lb of sugar dissolved in water to make a gallon). Some fruit has more sugar content and some fruit has less but a ballpark is about 1.040 (a potential ABV of about 5.25%). Dilute the juice with water (say 1:1, and your additional gravity is about 2.6% - that is not going to be fruit forward but in a mead I assume that you want the honey to be at the front and center and not the fruit. You want the fruit to add complexity and not be the soloist. (the idea again, of appropriate integration)
In a perfect world, 14% is the equivalent of 14/131 = 107 gravity points of sugar. Add to that how sweet you want it to be, let's say 10 points (medium sweet) which says you want 117 total gravity points (a starting gravity of 1.117). So, the yeast consume 107 and leave you with 10 for sweetness. Honey is about 35 gravity points per pound per gallon, so .117/.035 says you need 3.34 lbs of honey per gallon.
However... this is not a perfect world. Yeast don't magically stop right on the published tolerance number. And honey can range from 34 to 38 points per pound per gallon.
The way to get predictable results is to mix up the batch for 1.107 starting point, let ferment as far as the yeast will take it, then back sweeten with honey to 1.010 at the end after stabilizing with sulfite and sorbate.
Kody_Wulfe
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So is 5lbs too much honey??? I have started my 3-4 batches.. identical to my first 2 except I rehydrate my D-47.... and keep taking the lids off to aerate.. I have no activity in my air locks.. but I do have the smell of yeast and signs of active fermentation.. I just notch it up to taking the lids on and off...
Kody
Kody
It comes from here (see attached)
I have this formula: =(((B1)-B2)*1.04678)/(0.0061773047+(0.78614031/B2)) in an excel spreadsheet that I use to figure my ABV.
View attachment ABVtopic.pdf
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Is 3 lbs. of honey per gallon a safe bet for ending up with dry mead? All of my meads have been sweet. Time for a dry mead.
Well you do need to think of how much honey.
CU_tony
Maylar
These replies were to my Post A Slight Mistake Where I posted that I accidently added too much honey when I didnt weigh well enough. Hope this helps!
bernardsmith
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Silver Is Money... short answer is "it depends". Longer answer is that it depends on the yeast you use, the amount of oxygen you provide the yeast before you pitch, the amount of nitrogen you provide, the amount of nutrients, the acidity of the must (it will rise as honey has no buffers and at a pH of about 3.0 fermentation will cease. But all other things being equal, 3 lbs of honey dissolved in water to make 1 gallon (US) will give you a starting gravity of about 1.105 or a potential ABV of about 14% .
I would suggest using Fermaid O as the nutrient and what I do is mix my honey and water in a blender - that aerates without any question. BUT, do not heat the water - that tends to boil off any O2 in the water.. so you start with your yeast nicely hobbled... I would also rehydrate the yeast - also gives your yeast a fighting chance... Oh... and yeast is dirt cheap. Use a whole pack...
I would suggest using Fermaid O as the nutrient and what I do is mix my honey and water in a blender - that aerates without any question. BUT, do not heat the water - that tends to boil off any O2 in the water.. so you start with your yeast nicely hobbled... I would also rehydrate the yeast - also gives your yeast a fighting chance... Oh... and yeast is dirt cheap. Use a whole pack...
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
But that is approaching the issue ass backwards. You don't ask how much honey do you want to use. You ask yourself what kind of mead do I want to make? How much alcohol am I looking for? How much flavor? What flavors? How sweet do I want this? The answers to those questions tell you how much honey you will need to use.
I guess, though half the fun is now knowing what will happen. thats part of the learning experience too. You start off way Positive and the next batch will be way negative and up and down the waves go positive negative till you mellow out right at 0 neutral and then you have a bunch of mead you can drink. some better than others but you know what works. 5 pounds to 1 gallon might be either wayy positive or wayy negative or it might be closer to neutral.
I like Maylar's answer best. It seems to be the most reasonable. The others are uber complex. I'll just use the calculation he provides to calculate how much honey would cause it to go dry, then go from there. As I want a semi-sweet to sweet mead, I will just make sure more sugar is added on top of the calculated dry point whether that sugar takes the form of more honey, fruit, or syrup is preference on taste and mead flavor profile.
3 lbs per gallon is very typical and safe. That'll get you in the vicinity of 14% ABV and pretty much any wine or mead yeast can handle that. Assuming you follow a nutrient protocol that keeps the yeast happy till the end.
TattooCelt
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I regularly brew 3 gallon batches of mead. Typically I use 9-10 pounds of honey for a three gallon batch because I, and the people who drink my brew, prefer a sweeter mead. If, at the end of the process the mead is a bit too dry (like my banana spice mead was) I'll back sweeten with a wine conditioner as I am gun-shy of bottle bombs.
Bottle bombs are quite exciting though! Right up until the point where your cleaning up a few gallons of sticky.
Chris_The_Rogue
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:Edited Post: cuz im a moron who didn't see it wasn't the end of the thread, and answered a question that had already been answered. 
mdvandenberg
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When the mead stops fermenting, can you tack to secondary and pitch a higher tolerant yeast to finish the day remaining two pounds of honey off?
mdvandenberg
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Could it be thinned with water and a higher tolerant yeast just so all the honey gets fermented
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
The two secrets I have learned of late with regard to maximizing fermentation when a whopper load of honey is involved are to keep the pH above 3.0 (and at around pH 3.4-3.6), and also to periodically add small amounts of varying yeast nutrient(s). Potassium carbonate or potassium bicarbonate are used in small quantities to raise the pH. Wine yeast gets very sluggish as it gets near pH 3.0, and begins dying off outright at or near pH 2.8.
Honey has little to none of the natural buffers which wine exhibits, and therefore as it ferments it's pH falls with no buffering to slow or arrest the fall. And vs. wine it is also quite devoid of natural yeast nutrients.
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mdvandenberg
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Great. Thanks a lot. So kinda watch and as fermentation slows add say a teaspoon of yeast nutrient?
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Others more familiar with making mead will need to assist here as to yeast nutrient addition types, quantities, and intervals, but 1 tsp seems like massive overkill for 1 gallon. The nutrients can become harmful to the mead consumer if not done properly. Nutrients won't help for long if pH monitoring and control are not also carried out, since pH inhibited (or outright dead) yeast can't benefit much from nutrients. Acid monitoring may be done via titration, as well as potentially via a pH meter, but I'm a beer guy, and again someone with wine and mead experience needs to assist and clarify here.
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Seamonkey84
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Nutrients is added all up front, or broken down into 3-4 additions based on how much sugar has been used. Look up staggered nutritient additions, TOSNA, or BOMM (Brays one month mead pinned at the top of the forum). If your making a traditional mead and your using wine nutrient blend other than Fermaid K or O like described in these protocols, then most would use 2-3X the amount as instructed, as there’s no fruit to add any additional nutrients like in wine. But don’t add nutrients in once it’s at 10% ABV or above.
