4th Consecutive Undrinkable Batch - Please Help!

[wookiemofo]

I probably don't have any right to chime in as you've done more AG batches then I have!

Follow Bobby_M's primer to a tee, and use store bought water for your next batch.

His primer says to do a double sparge (half your sparge volume twice) at 180 degrees. He doesn't rest with his sparge either, dump in... stir a boat load, vourlof 2 qts. Repeat.

My eff improved from batch 1 to 2 using his method (eff isn't your issue). But I would think if you start with one thing and move from there, you'll find your problem. And you seem the most concerned with water, so as bwiens said, buy it from somewhere. Don't use any treatments (i use the 5PH, not sure why!) That would technically tell you right off the bat if you have an issue. The sucky part is having to wait to sample it.

I had 2 batches in the fall that I thought were totally undrinkable, and one was a stone IPA clone (partial mash). I brought a couple bottles of each into my LHBS for those guys to sample, they all laughed at me. Said the beer we more then fine. I learned that I was being over critical of my homebrew. Although the oktoberfast to me was still undrinkable. There's just a very specific flavor in there that I couldn't handle... to similar to a plastic taste. All my beers have been fine since I haven't changed a thing. Just brewed different recipes. But now that I think about it, I have been fermenting in lower temps since the winter. Remember ferment temp can be 4-5 degrees higher then ambient.

 

[XXguy]

Evaluation should include testing/measuring what you can, when you can.

Like you already said, if you can make good extract beers, your problem is likely in the mash. I'd be looking to test & measure every step of the mash, don't just rely on what a spreadsheet or program says the result should be. Your taste buds are the ultimate testing tool, and they're telling you something's wrong.

Good luck with it. Seems you're on the right path.

 

[MaltedLiver]

The variation between extract and AG is the presence of your mash tun and HTL. Perhaps you are picking up flavors from the plastic in your mash tun cooler. Any surface scratches or imperfections?

 

[sjbeerman]

I just reread your original post and you describe this as an astringent taste, which would have a puckering quality. According to Palmer, this is caused by sparging with water that is too hot which causes the pH to exceed the range of 5.2-5.6. Perhaps this is the cause? It's possible that if you use 5.2 and sparge with the same temp water then this may be avoided or reduce your sparge water temp.

I should mention that I used fly sparging on my first batch with no pH adjustment and I know I lost a lot of heat during the process. After that, I went to batch sparging.

I would reduce the sparge water temp and/or use pH 5.2.

 

[sensibull]

The variation between extract and AG is the presence of your mash tun and HTL. Perhaps you are picking up flavors from the plastic in your mash tun cooler. Any surface scratches or imperfections?

No scratches that I can tell. It was purchased brand new, and only used for these 4 AG batches. The plastic did warp the very first time it received hot water, so there's about a 1" lump running vertically the entire length/height of the inside. I've thought about the plastic in the tun, but it seems like the 10g cooler is in very common usage and I'd hear more about it if represented a potential source of off flavors.

 

[sensibull]

I would reduce the sparge water temp and/or use pH 5.2.

That's the plan. I hope for my wife's sake that fixes the problem because she might have me committed if it doesn't. :cross:

 

[northernlad]

At one point I got lazy about sparge volumes and temps and for about 3 batches (it takes this long to recognize a problem) and had the sensation of sucking on an oversteeped teabag. Naturally I came here and searched through the annals and decided to pay more attention to things. Since then I have not had a problem. All batches had been done with the same equipment. Plastic is not the problem.
I batch sparge and do not mash-out. I use 170 degree water to sparge. I take as many as 3 runnings for all of my beers. I do not rely on a calulator to tell me how much sparge water to use. I split the balance of intended volume after first runnings and collect only until I reach what I want for preboil volume. I have never gone below 1.015.
My water is ridiculously clean, although it is city water, and random tests of mash pH levels have been 5-5.3.

Long story short: You need to focus on one thing right now. I may differ in opinion from some, but your problem here is not in your mash tun, yeast, or fermentation temps.
Get some pH strips to check the mash. If you batch sparge, forego the mashout and use only the amount of water you will need to reach preboil volume. Sparge with 170 degree water. Do the same thing the same way everytime.

 

[sensibull]

Thanks for the feedback Northernlad. You've given me some renewed hope that the sparge temps are the culprit and that ending this string of bad batches is within reach ;-)

 

[sensibull]

OK, here's an update:

I brewed Ed Wort's Haus Pale on Sunday 2/27. No water over 170 degrees touched the grain. Gravity was under by about a point, but close enough. Used US-05 and ferm temps were 65-67. Wort tasted normal pre- and post-boil.

I just took a hydro reading 10 days into fermentation (gravity is at 1.007-1.008) and the bad taste is still present and I am now officially pissed. WTF?!? I now think "astringent" is a bad descriptor. My wife says "yeasty" and "like a wheat beer". There is a strong yeast smell/taste, but something else, something that has NEVER been present in my extract IPAs at 10 days or even less, so I really don't think it's a matter of it being green, unless all-grain ages completely differently than extract.

Other notes: the krausen on the beer is still present and seemed more fluffy than usual, although it's possible a drop or two of star stans got sucked through the airlock and is causing extra bubbles (but before you blame it on that, this taste was present in ALL of my previous all-grain batches but NONE of my extracts).

Guess I'll have to try store bought water next, but I still can't fathom why my extract batches are turning out great with the same water.

 

[XXguy]

... still can't fathom why my extract batches are turning out great with the same water.

Because you're now asking your water to work the magic in the mash.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Mash_pH

If you're gonna keep using tap water, you need to test the mash for pH and conversion.

 

[JLW]

Sensibull, I live in Richmond, VA and am always willing to drink someone elses homebrew and even trade off. There is also a homebrew club that meets at Mekong monthly might be another source of info.

The owner of The Weekend Brewer is a wealth of info as well.

 

[mhermetz]

OK, here's an update:

Other notes: the krausen on the beer is still present and seemed more fluffy than usual, although it's possible a drop or two of star stans got sucked through the airlock and is causing extra bubbles (but before you blame it on that, this taste was present in ALL of my previous all-grain batches but NONE of my extracts).

I wouldn't try a sample until the krausen has fallen. That would explain the "yeasty" taste.

I've skimmed through this a bit too and maybe you've answered this but do you strain the hops out before the wort hits the fermentor?

I notice a slightly harsh bitterness (i had it also described as Astringent) when I let my hop sediment from my Boil Kettle reach my fermentor. There was a thread on this somewhere but I can't find it. That being said, it never led my beer to being undrinkable.

 

[sensibull]

Sensibull, I live in Richmond, VA and am always willing to drink someone elses homebrew and even trade off. There is also a homebrew club that meets at Mekong monthly might be another source of info.

The owner of The Weekend Brewer is a wealth of info as well.

Thanks, JLW. I may take you up on that (though I wouldn't even think about trading until I get this problem under control). I was actually at the Weekend Brewer this morning and talked to Bob about it, and he immediately said "oversparging" but I think I might be mis-diagnosing the taste as astringent. In any case, there's zero chance I oversparged this particular batch.

 

[cyraxx]

OK, here's an update:

I brewed Ed Wort's Haus Pale on Sunday 2/27. No water over 170 degrees touched the grain. Gravity was under by about a point, but close enough. Used US-05 and ferm temps were 65-67. Wort tasted normal pre- and post-boil.

I just took a hydro reading 10 days into fermentation (gravity is at 1.007-1.008) and the bad taste is still present and I am now officially pissed. WTF?!? I now think "astringent" is a bad descriptor. My wife says "yeasty" and "like a wheat beer". There is a strong yeast smell/taste, but something else, something that has NEVER been present in my extract IPAs at 10 days or even less, so I really don't think it's a matter of it being green, unless all-grain ages completely differently than extract.

Other notes: the krausen on the beer is still present and seemed more fluffy than usual, although it's possible a drop or two of star stans got sucked through the airlock and is causing extra bubbles (but before you blame it on that, this taste was present in ALL of my previous all-grain batches but NONE of my extracts).

Guess I'll have to try store bought water next, but I still can't fathom why my extract batches are turning out great with the same water.

Did you taste your gravity sample pre-fermentation, and was the flavor apparent then?

 

[sensibull]

If you're gonna keep using tap water, you need to test the mash for pH and conversion.

Agreed. FWIW, I did a small mash this morning to make some wort for a starter (didn't realize I had run low on DME) and used a pH strip to test. The result was about 5.3-5.4. I also bought some 5.2 stabilizer and will test whenever I get the courage to try again. I think I need to acquire some more gear, though, so I can do a small batch. It's getting too expensive to keep botching 5 gallon batches

 

[sensibull]

Did you taste your gravity sample pre-fermentation, and was the flavor apparent then?

Yes I tasted it, and no it wasn't present. As mentioned: "Wort tasted normal pre- and post-boil."

 

[sensibull]

I wouldn't try a sample until the krausen has fallen. That would explain the "yeasty" taste.

I've skimmed through this a bit too and maybe you've answered this but do you strain the hops out before the wort hits the fermentor?

I notice a slightly harsh bitterness (i had it also described as Astringent) when I let my hop sediment from my Boil Kettle reach my fermentor. There was a thread on this somewhere but I can't find it. That being said, it never led my beer to being undrinkable.

For this latest batch, I used a hop bag in the boil, so yeah the hops were filtered. In several previous batches, I did not.

 

[wookiemofo]

Thanks, JLW. I may take you up on that (though I wouldn't even think about trading until I get this problem under control). I was actually at the Weekend Brewer this morning and talked to Bob about it, and he immediately said "oversparging" but I think I might be mis-diagnosing the taste as astringent. In any case, there's zero chance I oversparged this particular batch.

Take JLW up on his offer, immediately. As mentioned before, I did the same thing with my local shop and it was the best thing I've done since I've been brewing.

Get a second opinion, everyone has different tastes, some more refined then others.

 

[rod734]

I'm just a noobe and had several homebrews, but I'v read thru this whole thing, and it sounds like you know what you'r doing. Have you tried getting your ingredients somewhere else. There has to be a common denominator in your AG batches.

 

[sensibull]

Thanks for the suggestion, rod, but I have varied my sources. First few AG batches were sourced from my LHBS, but this last one was made from bulk grain that I milled myself and hops bought online.

 

[sensibull]

No word back from JLW, unfortunately, but I'm beginning to wonder whether it's possible a lingering infection is the cause of my problems. Unlike my extract batches, I always do my all grain batches outside, which I suppose invites more chances of wild yeast or bacteria. I use both carboys and buckets to ferment, but I'm pretty sure 4 out 5 bad batches were fermented in my carboy, which does have some scratches. I think I'll bleach the hell out of everything and have another go at it sometime soon...

 

[JLW]

I sent you an email. Or at least I thought I did. My bad. Can you PM me again and we can work out a time to meet up.

 

[bruin_ale]

could be an infection I suppose.. If you suspect that, the first thing to do is replace any tubing/hoses that will touch the post-boiled wort. Also, is your carboy plastic? I've never heard of a scratched glass carboy - that's one of the nice things about glass carboys. They are heavy as hell and a pain in the ass to move (especially when they're full), but you can scrub the P!$$ out of them and they won't scratch.

 

[sensibull]

My carboy is glass but it definitely has some scratches (I got it second hand from someone who brewed with it a decade ago). I'll try to get some pictures up if I can capture them, but the beer that's sitting in it now (the one in question) still has a krausen after two weeks and it looks really chunky and full of hard bubbles like some infection pictures I've seen around here...

 

[JLW]

My carboy is glass but it definitely has some scratches (I got it second hand from someone who brewed with it a decade ago). I'll try to get some pictures up if I can capture them, but the beer that's sitting in it now (the one in question) still has a krausen after two weeks and it looks really chunky and full of hard bubbles like some infection pictures I've seen around here...

This happened to me with an Arrogant Bastard clone a few weeks back. The krausen never dropped. I tasted the hydro samples and they were sweet like young beer and also smelled like bread.

It's been two weeks so you might want to take a hydro sample to check your gravity and also get a chance to smell and taste.

 

[RichmonS]

I wonder if you might be able to get someone local who can brew with you and provide feedback in real-time.

 

[JLW]

I wonder if you might be able to get someone local who can brew with you and provide feedback in real-time.

I am going to try and catch up with him.

 

[sensibull]

It's been two weeks so you might want to take a hydro sample to check your gravity and also get a chance to smell and taste.

Just took a sample and gravity is still at 1.006-1.007 where it was a week ago, but the bad taste and smell is still present -- and nasty enough that I am leaning more and more towards infection.

For what it's worth, and it's worth a lot to me, I brewed an AG Oatmeal Stout a little over a week ago and at one week it tasted very good -- literally my first AG batch out of five or six that didn't have this off taste. The Stout was fermented in a bucket. Feeling lucky, I brewed Yoopers Dogfish Head 60 clone on Sunday. Let's hope that one turns outs drinkable as well

 

[JLW]

Just took a sample and gravity is still at 1.006-1.007 where it was a week ago, but the bad taste and smell is still present -- and nasty enough that I am leaning more and more towards infection.

For what it's worth, and it's worth a lot to me, I brewed an AG Oatmeal Stout a little over a week ago and at one week it tasted very good -- literally my first AG batch out of five or six that didn't have this off taste. The Stout was fermented in a bucket. Feeling lucky, I brewed Yoopers Dogfish Head 60 clone on Sunday. Let's hope that one turns outs drinkable as well

That's not good on the first one, sounding more and more like an infection.

If you don't have to do anything special to the Oatmeal Stout you may want to leave it in primary this time and not transfer to a secondary (if you normally use a secondary). How are you fermenting the DFH 60? Carboy or bucket?

 

[sensibull]

DFH is fermenting in another bucket that I nuked overnight with a bleach solution together with basically everything I use to brew (and then rinsed thoroughly, and then used Star San). No plans to move the Oatmeal Stout until it's ready to keg.

 

[SC_Ryan]

For what it's worth, and it's worth a lot to me, I brewed an AG Oatmeal Stout a little over a week ago and at one week it tasted very good -- literally my first AG batch out of five or six that didn't have this off taste.

It's worth a ton. I was 99% sure mash pH was your issue before reading this post an now I'm 100% sure. This is why Yooper asked you if all of the beers that came out with "the flavor" were pale beers. Without getting in to too much crazy detail, darker malts reduce pH much more than lighter malts.

To state it simply, mash pH has a huge affect on how the enzymes in your grain convert the starches in your mash to sugars. Extract is already converted then dehydrated wort and contains all of the minerals and nutrients it needs for the rest of the process. OK, hunker down for a long post.

I would like to start by saying that I had this exact same issue and it drove me crazy. The first thing you need to do is throw away the 5.2 product. It does not work as advertised. I nearly quit brewing because I assumed that this product was taking care of the mash pH for me. I spent months refining other parts of my process, nearly quitting, before I came back and revisited water.

The first thing I did was I got a water report and read up on water chemistry. I started using the spreadsheets and using a very accurate gram scale, I made mineral adjustments to get me perfect water according to the spreadsheets for the beer that I wanted to produce. Thankfully for me my next beer came out fantastic! Not a hint of the flavor! Awesome! I'm cured! Not so fast... With subsequent beers I had mixed results and the insanity started again. A recipe that I made 6 months ago, that came out perfect, I would brew it again and the flavor is back! What the hell right? The thing is this...

Water chemistry and the reactions that happen in the mash are a hell of a lot more complicated than 50 ppm calcium + 25ppm CaCO3= Mash pH of 5.2. There are a ton of variables. On top of that, the numbers you get from your water company are averages. Even water tested in a lab can be incorrect because water companies often pull water from multiple sources. One week it can be well water and the next week from a reservoir or aquifer. You can't taste the difference but the mineral content in all of that water is going to be different. Even if you are plugging in perfectly accurate starting mineral numbers, the numbers you get from the spreadsheets are often time totally inaccurate. Don't give up there's help on the horizon!

The only way you can know the pH of your mash is by testing it with a pH meter. Period. pH test strips are notoriously inaccurate. The added benefit of a pH meter is that you can also meter your sparge runnings to see if you are extracting tannins (which I suspect you are not).

OK, so here is the good news. All of this stuff sounds very complicated but one of our members, ajdelange, has devised a water priming process that is very easy, eliminates all of the variables, and doesn't require much of a knowledge of water chemistry but you must have a pH meter. Below is a link to the thread. It is actually a sticky in the brewing science forum. Finish reading this post then go check it out. It's a long ass thread but all you need to read are the instructions in the first post. Here is the link.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Since I have started using a pH meter "the flavor" as I came to explain it has completely disappeared from all of my beers. Since I started using aj's primer, my process has gotten a lot easier. I would frequently have to test then adjust when I was using spreadsheets and the meter. AJ's system eliminates the variables and makes the process more repeatable. Not only that but the aroma, malt and hop profile are all much brighter in all of my beers, stouts and pale ales alike.

So two tips for you. It's not stated in the first post but it is good to cool your wort sample to room temperature before metering it because it greatly helps to prolong the life of the sensor (which is replaceable). The thing that is not stated is that the cool sample will read 0.2-.03 higher than the actual hot mash pH so if yo are targeting a mash ph of 5.2. the ideal pH of your cooled sample would be 5.4-5.5. I usually pull about an ounce of mash liquid in a coffee cup then place the coffee cup in a bowl of ice water. It usually cools it down in 5-10 minutes. My second tip is to use 100% distilled water the first time you do this as to eliminate any variables. You can experiment with dilution on subsequent batches.

Good luck to you!

 

[sensibull]

That's a lot to chew over, SC_Ryan, and I appreciate the time you took to express it. Can't say I'm not bummed at the notion that the solution to every problem in this hobby is buying more gear but I guess a pH meter is in my future.

For the DFH 60 I did on Sunday, I did use the 5.2 stuff and tested my mash twice with the strips. Not easy to dial in an exact reading, at least with the strips they had at my LHBS, but I think it was actually around 5.0 or 5.1. Then I read that those strips undershoot, especially at hot temps, so who knows...

Anyway, I'll have a look at the chemistry primer when I haven't had a few homebrews with dinner.

 

[SC_Ryan]

Can't say I'm not bummed at the notion that the solution to every problem in this hobby is buying more gear but I guess a pH meter is in my future.

Yeah, it can feel that way some times. I do honestly feel that the pH meter is the single piece of equipment that has improved my beers the most. It seems that the longer you brew, the more equipment you have to have lol. If it's getting expensive, you can stick to extract for a while Good luck with the brews! Hope the DFH turns out! Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[Wiezer]

Do you have a preference for a specific brand of PH meter? I'm seeing prices between $25 and $85.

 

[XXguy]

To state it simply, mash pH has a huge affect on how the enzymes in your grain convert the starches in your mash to sugars. Extract is already converted then dehydrated wort and contains all of the minerals and nutrients it needs for the rest of the process. OK, hunker down for a long post.

I would like to start by saying that I had this exact same issue and it drove me crazy. The first thing you need to do is throw away the 5.2 product. It does not work as advertised. I nearly quit brewing because I assumed that this product was taking care of the mash pH for me. I spent months refining other parts of my process, nearly quitting, before I came back and revisited water.

The only way you can know the pH of your mash is by testing it with a pH meter. Period.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Just doing a quote for truth. Test. Test. Test. Don't rely on what a spreadsheet tells you the answer should be.

 

[SC_Ryan]

Do you have a preference for a specific brand of PH meter? I'm seeing prices between $25 and $85.

I don't have experience with a lot of brands. I have a Martini Instruments and it works great. From what I understand, the technology is pretty simple so even the cheaper brands are very accurate. I would make sure that you purchase something where the sensor is replaceable as it would probably be cheaper in the long run.

 

[blkandrust]

Been closely following this thread.Any updates?

 

[sensibull]

Update: The DFH 60 clone mentioned in post #72 -- the first for which I used the 5.2 stuff -- is coming of age and proving quite drinkable, if not tasty. It's strange, the objectionable off flavor and smell (really a combination of the two) lingered throughout much of this beer's development and is still somewhat present in a very minor way, but is now almost entirely masked or supplanted by the aroma gained from the dry hopping coupled I suppose with the beer's general aging.

I followed ajdelange's guidelines, as linked by SC_Ryan, for the next beer (a fairly generic Sierra Nevada clone recipe that I have successfully made several times in extract form) but that one is still in process so I can't quite report on that yet other than to say that I still smelled what I thought was the same odd smell in the fermentation stage.

I haven't really seen this addressed anywhere, but do extract batches mature faster or differently than AG ones? Perhaps I have mistakenly associated my particular off flavor (which seems, at this point, to have been caused by water and ph issues) with a smell that's present in the aging process of AG pale ales but not extract ones...

 

[sudsmcgee]

How long has this beer been bottled/kegged that you are drinking?

 

[sensibull]

The DFH clone was brewed 3/13, so it's only 4 weeks old. Yeah, I know... But as I mentioned in my first couple posts, this particular problem with AG batches lasted through some beers that I aged 2-3 months. The main issue is a prominent and consistent difference in flavor/aroma between my extract and ag batches, regardless of aging. Two of my worst batches were Ed's Haus Pale and Centennial Blond which are lauded for their fast maturation.