4th Consecutive Undrinkable Batch - Please Help!

[sensibull]

It pains me to admit this, as I usually pride myself on being quite DIY proficient, but something is going terribly wrong with my all grain brewing. I'm thirteen batches into this hobby and totally addicted to it, and several of my extract batches have turned out quite delicious. All four all grain sessions so far, however, have been virtually undrinkable.

I *think* what I'm dealing with is astringency, but it's not easy to be 100% confident in that diagnosis. In any case, the "off-taste" is a grainy bitterness and bad aftertaste. I have troubling believing it's an infection issue, because although the off taste in question is remarkably consistent, there's very little in common otherwise from batch to batch as I've been upgrading as I go and experimenting with different options (different fermenters, different water source, different brewing gear, different sanitizers, etc.), and lately I've been pretty fanatical with my sanitation. Two of these batches I let age for two months with little discernible reduction in the off taste.

(More specifics about my process are given below)

So... assuming it's astringency, I'm hoping I can get some advice about possible culprits or best strategies for eliminating the problem.

1. Mash pH: Ward labs returned a result of 7.8 for the pH of the tap water used most recently. That doesn't seem that high to me. Total alkalinity (CaCO3) was at 28 (that's not particularly hard either, right?) The three previous batches were made with well water from a farmhouse that wasn't tested.

Possibly solutions: Should I invest in that pH 5.2 stuff?

2. Oversparging: I'm not entirely clear on what this means. Using Brewsmith, I did end up with more wort than I intended, but I just left a gallon or so in the mash tun instead of using it all. My original gravities have been universally lower than intended, some by as much as 15 points, some by only 3-4. I was chalking this up to a poor crush from my LHBS and have since invested in a mill but haven't received or used it yet.

Possibly solution: Use the method where you measure you first runnings and then divide the amount needed into two equal sparges.

3. Boiling grains: I vorlauf several times like a good little boy, and only collect when the runnings look clear, but I suppose it's possible some grain is making it into my boil.

Possible solution: Use a paint strainer bag when collecting the runnings to make sure wort is totally free of grain.

4. Mash/Sparge temps: I've been within 1-3 degrees of my intended mash temp (153 or 155) in all four cases. In my first few attempts, I overemphasized the importance of the mash out and may have used sparge water in the 190-195 degree range, but all four times I actually left the thermometer in the mash and, ironically, the grain bed never even hit 168.

Possible solution: forget about the mash out and use 170 degree water for my sparge.

Am I overlooking anything? I greatly appreciate any and all help offered.

Additional details

Recipes attempted: Kona Pale Ale Clone, Mojave Red, Centennial Pale, and Stone Ruination Clone.

Mash tun: 10g rubbermaid with SS mesh tube filter

Boil kettle: Initially an aluminum pot, now a converted keg

Chiller: DIY Immersion Wort Chiller

Fermenter: 6.5g carboy and an ale pale.

Yeast: Mostly using US-05, rehydrated.

Temperature Control: Converted freezer, temps in the mid 60s throughout fermentation.

Sanitizer: First three batches used iodophor, now using star san.

Water additions: based on my water test, I have been adding 4g CaCl2 and 3g of Epsom salt per 5 gallon boil. Ever since switching to tap water, I've also added 1 campden tablet to my mash/sparge water and let it sit overnight.

 

[COLObrewer]

What is your PH prior to mashing after your chemical additions? You need to be (Ideally) between 5.1 and 5.5.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Have you asked any locals to taste your beer?

My guesses are:

1.) your water. Try replacing it with DO water and build it up to style yourself.
2.) Your temps. Your thermometers may not be calibrated
3.) your mash pH. I have had good experiences with 5.2, but several people have claimed recently that it doesn't work for them. Your mileage may vary. Building up the water yourself will allow you to pin down the mash pH right where you want it in any case.

 

[bruin_ale]

You can rule out #3, if you let a few husks slip into a 5+ gallons of wort it's not going to cause much flavor difference. Now if you end up with more husks than hops left over in your kettle you've got a problem, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.

 

[Legin]

Would really like to know your whole brew process.

1. PH will be determined by minerals. What's your full water profile? Ultimately you could dilute your water with distilled to get it in the right range. PH test strips might not be a bad idea, although they are often inaccurate.

2. This is really only an issue when you are doing fly-sparging. With double batch sparging I can get 75% efficiency with 1/2 gallon of wort still in the tun.

3. You would need a lot of husks escaping into the boil to produce an off-flavor. Confused. What the heck is a bazooka tube? Is that your tuns' filter, and is it food grade?

4. Confused again. You mashout and then use water that is 195 degrees? That would be an issue, but I may have misunderstood. Do you have multiple thermometers to make sure they are accurate?

Edit: Type too damn slow. Sorry for the repeats.

 

[bruin_ale]

Agree on the above.. don't sparge with 195 degree water (if that's what you're saying) - that's way too hot. I've overdone the sparge heat before so that I could turn off the burner during sparge, but I only did about 180 or so.

 

[sensibull]

What is your PH prior to mashing after your chemical additions? You need to be (Ideally) between 5.1 and 5.5.

I don't have the means to test ph yet, other than my water test. I guess that's a step I'll take next.

Have you asked any locals to taste your beer?

If you mean local HBT members, then no. Anybody volunteering?

1. PH will be determined by minerals. What's your full water profile? Ultimately you could dilute your water with distilled to get it in the right range. PH test strips might not be a bad idea, although they are often inaccurate.

Here's the full profile, which includes a PH reading.

pH 7.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 145
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.24
Cations / Anions, me/L 2.2 / 2.0 ppm
Sodium, Na 18
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 21
Magnesium, Mg 3
Total Hardness, CaCO3 65
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.4 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 16
Chloride, Cl 15
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 34
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 28
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

What the heck is a bazooka tube? Is that your tuns' filter, and is it food grade?

Yes, it's a filter made from a stainless steel braid, as per flyguy's mashtun guide.

4. Confused again. You mashout and then use water that is 195 degrees? That would be an issue, but I may have misunderstood. Do you have multiple thermometers to make sure they are accurate?

Well, unless I'm the one that's confused, the mashout was done with 195 degree water (in an attempt to get the average temp of the grainbed to 168). That was only done in one of the four batches though. After that, I used water in the 170-180 range. I have one digital thermometer and several analog and they are within several degrees of each other. The digital, which I used most, hits 212 at boil and seems pretty accurate.

 

[slomo]

Agree about the sparing of 195 degree water. That is way to hot, also I would try some 5.2 your ph is to high.

 

[Smokeater233]

I have a theory...and while your temps may have something to do with this, I suspect something else is going on here...

and lately I've been pretty fanatical with my sanitation.

Tell me about your sanitation process:
1. When you became "fanatical" was that before or after you started the last four batches?
2. What is your sanitation process and what exact products do you use, and when?
3. Have you noticed any difference since switching to Star San?
4. When are you experiencing the off flavors? Have you tasted the wort and are they present then? How about before bottling? How about during bottling? Have you tested for off flavors once the beer is in the bottle at one week, two weeks, and three weeks to see if the off flavors develop more heavily during bottle conditioning?

 

[nilo]

-Check your thermometer
-Mash out at <=170F and not 195F
-Ferment at 165F
-Drop your mash efficiency on you brew software ( I assume you use one) so you increase your grain bill to get the target OG. That means you don't need to sparge/wash you grains too much to get the sugars your need ( less tanins extraction ).

 

[sensibull]

Would really like to know your whole brew process.

Well, to keep it simple, I'll just stick to the process I used for my last batch (as I said, things have evolved somewhat).

Stone IPA Clone

12lb 2-Row
1 lb Crystal 20
1 Lb Munich Malt

Batch size 5.5 gallons
Boil Volume 7.12 gallons

1. The night before brewday I measured out about 9 gallons of water and added the campden tablet, and the epsom and cacl additions.
3. Morning of brewday, take everything out of the fridge (grain, yeast) a few hours early to get it close to room temp.
3. Start heating my strike water. For this last batch, I did this in my brew kettle.
4. Meanwhile, I boiled 2 cups of water with 1 tbls DME. Cooled to about 80 and pitched US-05 to rehydrate/proof.
5. When strike water was heated to about 175, I poured 17.5 quarts / 4.35 gallons into the 10g cooler to preheat mashtun. When water cooled to 165, I added grain and stirred like hell. Temp leveled off at 154 and held steady (actually rose a degree) over 60 min. mash.
7. Vorlaufed 3-4 times with large pitcher and then drained mashtun into a large pot, while continuing to maintain heat in boil kettle for sparge water.
8. Sparged 1/2 of remaining water (about 2.6 gallons) at around 185. *Poured into mashtun directly from kettle, stirring all the way, but never managed to hit 168*
9. Let first sparge sit about ten minutes. Vorlafued again and collected 2nd runnings.
10. Sparged with remaining 2.6 gallons at around 180 (if I remember correctly). Grain still not measuring 168 yet. It was cold outside, and grain cooled considerably after each draining.
11. Vorlaufed a third time and collected third runnings. By this point I had about 8 gallons total and still some liquid left (abandoned) in the tun.
12. Poured wort into kettled and heated to boil. Pre boil gravity was 1.050 -- a bit lower than 1.053 expected, but close.
13. Did a 90 min. boil to get down to 5.5 gallons.
14. 1 oz. Warrior at 60, 1 oz Centennial at 15, 1 oz Centennial at 5.
15. Whirlfloc and Immersion Chiller into boil at 15.
16. After flameout, immersion chiller cooled wort to 70 within 20 minutes.
17. Unfortunately, my new pickup tube clogged during attempted drain into carboy (had been soaking in 1 gallon starsan solution, drained a few minutes before transfer), so I had to use my autosiphon to transfer wort from the kettle to the carboy.
18. As a result everything went into carboy unfiltered.
19. Vigorous ferment for a week, with 4 inch krausen, and temps kept close to 65.
20. Left in primary for 3 weeks. F.G. 1.010
21. Tasted today and here we are -- I know the beer is green, but it tastes exactly how the other batches did at 2 months.

 

[Airborneguy]

Can you explain your sparging technique? I'm leaning towards that, and not necessarily the temps, but how you are doing it and with how much water.

 

[Yooper]

I strongly suspect the water, but I"m not sure what you mean about the last three batches weren't testing- did you use different water in one batch?

An easy way to track it down is to buy distilled or RO water for the next batch. Add some calcium chloride to it- not much, a teaspoon. Use that for your mash and sparge water.

All of the beers you made that have an off flavor seem to be lighter colored, and/or hoppy, is that correct? Ever made a stout or brown ale with your water? (AG, I mean).

 

[sensibull]

Appreciate all the responses so far. To clarify, I only sparged with 195 degree water in one of the four batches and that wasn't the one I did most recently. The others were in the 175-185 range. I hear people saying to mashout with 170 degree water, but if I add 170 water to 155 degree grain, the average is nowhere near 168.

 

[Airborneguy]

Beat me to it!

5. When strike water was heated to about 175, I poured 17.5 quarts / 4.35 gallons into the 10g cooler to preheat mashtun. When water cooled to 165, I added grain and stirred like hell. Temp leveled off at 154 and held steady (actually rose a degree) over 60 min. mash.
7. Vorlaufed 3-4 times with large pitcher and then drained mashtun into a large pot, while continuing to maintain heat in boil kettle for sparge water.
8. Sparged 1/2 of remaining water (about 2.6 gallons) at around 185. *Poured into mashtun directly from kettle, stirring all the way, but never managed to 168*
9. Let first sparge sit about ten minutes. Vorlafued again and collected 2nd runnings.
10. Sparged with remaining 2.6 gallons at around 180 (if I remember correctly). Grain still not measuring 168 yet. It was cold outside, and grain cooled considerably after each draining.
11. Vorlaufed a third time and collected third runnings. By this point I had about 8 gallons total and still some liquid left (abandoned) in the tun.

I don't like the fact that you did three sets of runnings for a regular beer. Oversparging (especially mixing in that high temp step you did), could definitely lead to tannin extraction. Personally, I think this is your cuplrit.

 

[Airborneguy]

And the 7.8PH is probably an issue also, but I'm no expert on that. My water out of the tap is very soft and perfect for brewing, so I haven't bothered getting more specific than a few qypsum additions.

 

[sensibull]

Can you explain your sparging technique? I'm leaning towards that, and not necessarily the temps, but how you are doing it and with how much water.

First three AG batches I simply heated the sparge water to 185ish (195 in one instance) and poured it into the mashtun. Waited a few minutes, then drained. Efficiencies were low because I didn't wait long or stir much.

By the fourth instance I had acquired a keggle and used that to heat the strike and sparge water, so I held the (drained mashtun) under the valve and drained half of remaining sparge water (as I said above, about 2.6 gallons) while stirring. Waited ten minutes, vorlaufed, drained, and repeat.

 

[sensibull]

I strongly suspect the water, but I"m not sure what you mean about the last three batches weren't testing- did you use different water in one batch?

An easy way to track it down is to buy distilled or RO water for the next batch. Add some calcium chloride to it- not much, a teaspoon. Use that for your mash and sparge water.

All of the beers you made that have an off flavor seem to be lighter colored, and/or hoppy, is that correct? Ever made a stout or brown ale with your water? (AG, I mean).

Sorry I wasn't clear. I started off doing all grain with water from a well at a family farmhouse, thinking that would be the purest/least chlorinated free water I could get. When that gave me bad results (maybe it wasn't the water's fault, I don't know), I switched to my house tap water for the fourth batch, after first having it tested.

And yes, so far all AG batches have been pale ales and one amber.

 

[Legin]

Your water profile looks fine (excellent really), or rather to say you don't have anything high enough that it would throw the PH to a point where it would extract tannins.
Your Water additions are solid too, unless you are mistaking a tablespoon for teaspoon.

I think I confused people farther with the sparge question. You're mashout with 195 degree water is fine, and I'm assuming you sparge with 170-175 degree water.

 

[sensibull]

Tell me about your sanitation process:
1. When you became "fanatical" was that before or after you started the last four batches?
2. What is your sanitation process and what exact products do you use, and when?
3. Have you noticed any difference since switching to Star San?
4. When are you experiencing the off flavors? Have you tasted the wort and are they present then? How about before bottling? How about during bottling? Have you tested for off flavors once the beer is in the bottle at one week, two weeks, and three weeks to see if the off flavors develop more heavily during bottle conditioning?

I suspected the iodophor I was using early on (perhaps at too high a concentration), but no difference since moving to star san. And my sanitation practices are the same for AG and extract and like I said my extract brews have been great. I keg, not bottle, and have tracked the flavor from two weeks to two months with little to no change.

 

[Smokeater233]

And my sanitation practices are the same for AG and extract and like I said my extract brews have been great. I keg, not bottle, and have tracked the flavor from two weeks to two months with little to no change.

got it - but have you changed ANYTHING else? Did you suddenly start using oxyclean? A no rinse solution? Anything else about sanitation that may have changed in the last four batches?

 

[Patirck]

I tried switching from star san to iodaphor (betadine or povidone actually) and ruined three batches with it. I ended up having to soak the keg in pbw overnight to get rid of the off flavor it was causing. I must have been using too much of the stuff. Star san is a little expensive but it is worth it for me.

I would also suspect the water but it looks like you've done your homework there.

Try giving everything a good soaking in pbw (like overnight) and then use star san for sanitation and see what that gets you.

 

[sensibull]

got it - but have you changed ANYTHING else? Did you suddenly start using oxyclean? A no rinse solution? Anything else about sanitation that may have changed in the last four batches?

Appreciate the continued assistance and apologize for not being totally clear. The four "bad" AG batches were spread out over several months, with several great extract batches in between. By "consecutive" in my thread title, I simply meant 4 AG batches in a row have turned out bad.

 

[Legin]

12. Poured wort into kettle and heated to boil. Pre boil gravity was 1.050 -- a bit lower than 1.053 expected, but close.

You mean you siphon it in? You don't splash it in?

Where do you get your grains? How are they crushed?

 

[sensibull]

12. Poured wort into kettle and heated to boil. Pre boil gravity was 1.050 -- a bit lower than 1.053 expected, but close.

You mean you siphon it in? You don't splash it in?

Where do you get your grains? How are they crushed?

No, I just poured it into the keggle from the large pot I was using to collect the runnings. I suppose it splashed. Are you thinking hot-side aeration?

For these batches, I got my grain at my LHBS. They are crushed at the shop with an older motorized crankandstein. Moving forward, I will be buying all my 2-row bulk and crushing my own grain with a new crankandstein that will be arriving soon.

 

[ksbrain]

I'm thinking it sounds like a water issue, too. Your profile is pretty good. There's some extra info in there, but I think it's very soft, which should be good.

You should get some pH measurement device (even cheapo strips are OK) and test the pH of your mash. Not your water. Your mash. Adjusting water is virtually pointless if you aren't measuring pH to see if it's working. You might need acid malt to drop your pH, but I don't think it would make such a huge difference like you're talking about needing.

Not sure if it was in here yet, but you should also use campden to get rid of chlorine/chloramine from your water. I just add mine when I start heating to strike or sparge temperature. No need to sit overnight.

 

[Legin]

Are you thinking hot-side aeration?

Precisely. It's said to be a myth, but it does exist. The off-flavor for hot-side is a sherry bitter taste (sour almost). No grainy taste, though. Light beers will darken after a month in the fridge or out. Have you noticed this? The off-flavor is more irritating than repugnant. Beers are often still drinkable...just not by me.

 

[sensibull]

You should get some pH measurement device (even cheapo strips are OK) and test the pH of your mash. Not your water. Your mash. Adjusting water is virtually pointless if you aren't measuring pH to see if it's working. You might need acid malt to drop your pH, but I don't think it would make such a huge difference like you're talking about needing.

Will do. The pH of my mash is one of few remaining unknowns in my process.

I may need to look into doing a few small batches until I can pin down the problem.

 

[sensibull]

Are you thinking hot-side aeration?

Precisely. It's said to be a myth, but it does exist. The off-flavor for hot-side is a sherry bitter taste (sour almost). No grainy taste, though. Light beers will darken after a month in the fridge or out. Have you noticed this? The off-flavor is more irritating than repugnant. Beers are often still drinkable...just not by me.

hmmm.... sherry bitter. Could be, I guess. I need to train my taste buds better. I should clarify, when I say the results have been "undrinkable" I guess I don't mean that literally. Just not pleasant.

 

[XXguy]

Mash PH test strips are cheap. Buy some. Get some iodine or iodophor & learn how to check for starch conversion.

I'd suggest reading up at this website. www.braukaiser.com He's a member here & his info helped me a ton with figuring out my mash.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Mash_pH

 

[sensibull]

Been thinking about this all night. And nothing I am doing should be giving me such a noticeably bad result. Plugging my water test into the EZ Water Calculator gives me a near perfect mash pH, even without additions. Nevertheless, I figure if I take the following steps there should be zero reason for astringency and if I still get the off taste I can be certain the cause lies elsewhere.

1. Use the 5.2 pH to ensure a proper mash pH. (And test it to be sure it's working)
2. Use RO water
3. Use no water above 170 during sparge. This will drop my efficiency, but oh well.

 

[Legin]

1. Use the 5.2 pH to ensure a proper mash pH. (And test it to be sure it's working)
2. Use RO water
3. Use no water above 170 during sparge. This will drop my efficiency, but oh well.[/QUOTE]

Yup. And the reason I think it is not related to the water profile is because your profile is very similar to mine in Seattle. I've done pretty much every spectrum of color without treating the water, just pouring directly from the tap (chlorine in water is almost nonexistent), and my beers turn out excellent. Ph has been .3 points above and below the ideal without issues. Unless there is some harsh mineral or metal unique to your area that is causing it, I honestly can't think what it could be. I've also fly-sparged with water above 185 degrees with no discernible off-flavor. I mashout with water that is boiling followed with a good stir to get the bed up to 170. With batch sparging you can use water hotter than 170 just as long as the grain bed does not exceed 170, which I don't think it ever did.

The only other thing I will suggest is siphoning from the tun to the kettle to prevent splashing. May not be the issue, but there is no harm in doing it. I would also try a batch with liquid yeast if you haven't already tried that yet. Good luck.

 

[Airborneguy]

I pointed out that you said you sparged three times. Did you consider that? Sparging three times for a normal sized beer is probably going to extract tannins from the mash, especially when you use hotter water.

 

[sensibull]

I pointed out that you said you sparged three times. Did you consider that? Sparging three times for a normal sized beer is probably going to extract tannins from the mash, especially when you use hotter water.

Apologies for not responding directly to your post. I did read it. I was breaking up the sparge into 2 equal amounts based on seeing that technique suggested multiple times on these boards. But I have read that the longer your sparge takes, the more likely you are to extract tannins, and my last sparge process took quite a while. So I'll add a #4.

4. Sparge only once

p.s. I'll have to go back and looked at what I wrote, but I meant three total water additions: mash, sparge1, and sparge2, not 3 sparges.

 

[arch1tect]

You mentioned that you are still training your pallete so maybe you're just picking up the hops? Are you dry hopping?

I'd brew a clone kit and get a sixer of the real stuff and do a side by side.

 

[sensibull]

You mentioned that you are still training your pallete so maybe you're just picking up the hops? Are you dry hopping?

I'd brew a clone kit and get a sixer of the real stuff and do a side by side.

I don't think so. I love hops and hoppy bitterness. I do dry hop my IPAs but have yet to dry hop the beer most recently tasted.

FWIW, as a kind of control I recently did do two extract batches using the exact same gear and technique (minus the mashing and sparging of course). Just tasted one of them this morning and it tastes great, even at two weeks after brewing. While I do realize that water chemistry plays a significantly larger role in all grain brewing, I have trouble wrapping my head around the fact that the same water is producing such different results...

 

[sjbeerman]

I know most people here are pointing to the water as a source, but I'm not convinced that's the issue here. I looked at your water profile and it looks very similar to mine and the pH is close to what we have here. For my first AG batch, I didn't do any pH adjustment and although I got crappy efficiency the beer came out awesome! I now use pH 5.2 in every batch. However, this is more for an efficiency boost and not anything to improve taste.

Your process also doesn't really look abnormal as its not that much different than what I did. I no longer double batch sparge since I been able to exceed 70% efficiency with a single sparge. I also have never been able to get the grains above 163 F, but then again the hottest water I sparged with was 182 F.

On a side note, I would not recommend proofing dry yeast. This can decrease the glycogen reserves which will be needed to attenuate the beer properly. Speaking of fermentation, have you evaluated your fermentation process? Pitching temp...fermentation temp...??

If you still believe the water is the source then its a pretty simple experiment to rule that in or out and that is just use distilled water on your next batch.

Edit: I do use campden tablets every time. I couldn't remember if your using that or not.

 

[bruin_ale]

Mostly agree with sjbeerman, I'm probably using the same water as he is. I've never added anything to the water (the water calculator says the pH is a little high, and ratio is good for bitter beers which is mostly what I brew anyways).
I disagree about the no proofing though, I've done both with US-05 (that's the main yeast I use) and I find the fermentations start faster and are stronger when the yeast is rehydrated. I've also read that just dumping non-hydrated yeast into the wort can cause the cell walls to explode. Probably a discussion for another thread, but thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[sensibull]

Appreciate the response, sjbeerman. I have used campden tablets in my last couple batches, including the most recent AG. I feel like I have evaluated every step of the process, multiple times. To the point where I'm running in circles. The corrective steps for my next batch will include using RO water.

My pitching temp is relatively close to my fermentation temp, though I probably pitch around 72 and ferment closer to 65-66. This recent batch I did experiment with a diacetyl rest and let the temps rise closer to 70 towards the end of the ferment, as I understand this to result in a cleaner flavor.

The problem simply must lie somewhere within the steps that differentiate AG from extract. Which basically leaves me with mash ph and sparge temps. If I conclusively fix those, and still have problems, there's going to be a whole bunch of all grain gear on sale in the classifieds forum, not to mention 3 brand new 55 lb. bags of grain

 

[bwiens]

To high on the sparge temp. Forget mashout, just sparge with 168*-170* and start your kettle flame at about 1/2 full on the kettle. You will pull a lot of 'flavor' from the grain at 190*+. Keep it simple and easy to repeat.

Keep it simple with the water. I bought 15 gallons of water from wal-mart for my first few batches. Used zero water treatment and it came out great. I have sence went to tap water and a carbon block filter, still great. Doubt it is your water.