2018 Flyer?

[Gadjobrinus]

Asked in another thread but it might have gotten buried as it's a recipe thread. Looking at Flyer for a Russian imperial stout. Northwest Hop Farms has the pellets, but they are 2018. I've never worked with hops this old, and it's been a long time since I've done any brewing so have forgotten a lot (feels like everything, actually - looking back on old posts and I can't believe I even knew what little I knew). Comments?

 

[VikeMan]

Personally, I would avoid 5 year old hops. You might be able to assess their aroma as acceptable, but who knows what the remaining alpha acid content might be.

I have no personal experience with Flyer, but hopefully someone (perhaps in England...Flyer isn't common in the US) will. Otherwise, I'd start googling "Flyer hops substitute" and the like.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Personally, I would avoid 5 year old hops. You might be able to assess their aroma as acceptable, but who knows what the remaining alpha acid content might be.

I have no personal experience with Flyer, but hopefully someone (perhaps in England...Flyer isn't common in the US) will. Otherwise, I'd start googling "Flyer hops substitute" and the like.

Yeah, I think I agree, bummer. Wouldn't be using it for bittering, but a late kettle addition. I suspect the aroma would be off-point as well.

Thanks.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Personally, I would avoid 5 year old hops. You might be able to assess their aroma as acceptable, but who knows what the remaining alpha acid content might be.

I have no personal experience with Flyer, but hopefully someone (perhaps in England...Flyer isn't common in the US) will. Otherwise, I'd start googling "Flyer hops substitute" and the like.

As it happens my last-but-one beer had some Flyer in it, a left-over I needed to use up. Flyer are one of those hops that got as far as being named but then from what I can tell the agronomics didn't really work out, so 2018 is about the last ones you'll see commercially. They were intended as a high-alpha hop, but have that kind of resinous treacle-toffee flavour that you also get with Phoenix a bit, but there otherwise there isn't really a close match from a flavour POV. Great hop for dark beers, but it looks like it's now on the "historical interest only" list. About the only place that still grows them AFAIAA is Bushel of Hops, but Dorothy hasn't been selling hops these last two years for family reasons.
https://abushelofhops.co.uk/product/flyer-100g/
If you can find Phoenix I'd use that - and you can argue that a hop bred 20 years ago is hardly "traditional" in a RIS, but it is nice so I might be tempted to just up the late additions by 50% (or maybe a bit more, whatever fits the packet size available) - I assume you're getting a discount for that age?

Otherwise, maybe something like a 2:1 mix of Goldings and Bramling Cross - not the same, but a nice combo in dark beer.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

As it happens my last-but-one beer had some Flyer in it, a left-over I needed to use up. Flyer are one of those hops that got as far as being named but then from what I can tell the agronomics didn't really work out, so 2018 is about the last ones you'll see commercially. They were intended as a high-alpha hop, but have that kind of resinous treacle-toffee flavour that you also get with Phoenix a bit, but there otherwise there isn't really a close match from a flavour POV. Great hop for dark beers, but it looks like it's now on the "historical interest only" list. About the only place that still grows them AFAIAA is Bushel of Hops, but Dorothy hasn't been selling hops these last two years for family reasons.
https://abushelofhops.co.uk/product/flyer-100g/
If you can find Phoenix I'd use that - and you can argue that a hop bred 20 years ago is hardly "traditional" in a RIS, but it is nice so I might be tempted to just up the late additions by 50% (or maybe a bit more, whatever fits the packet size available) - I assume you're getting a discount for that age?

Otherwise, maybe something like a 2:1 mix of Goldings and Bramling Cross - not the same, but a nice combo in dark beer.

Not sure if this was to me, but thanks for the Phoenix recommendation. I think it was from an earlier post or more by yourself that I got the Flyer info and I think I do recall your mentioning something of the similarities and subtle differences between the Flyer and Phoenix.

The Flyer isn't coming at a discount - $11 US v. $12 US for their other hops. They do carry Phoenix and I'll go with that.

On EKG and Bramling Cross, per posts by you and perhaps Cire, trying out 50 L of best with:

Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
80.7 6.40 kg. Golden Promise Great Britain 1.037 5
9.1 0.73 kg. Invert Sugar No.2 1.045 65
5.2 0.41 kg. Torrefied Wheat Great Britain 1.036 5
3.5 0.27 kg. Crystal 55L - Hugh Baird's Great Britian 1.034 145
1.5 0.12 kg. Crystal 120L Great Britain 1.033 317

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
40.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 8.10 23.8 90 min.
84.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 8.10 9.1 10 min.
110.00 g. Bramling Cross Pellet 5.10 6.2 5 min.
28.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 8.10 0.0 Dry Hop
28.00 g. Bramling Cross Pellet 5.10 0.0 Dry Hop

-not sure if the dry hop is indicated or not.

A strong bitter will get Challenger (bittering, 90 min.), Northdown (20 minutes) and a favorite, First Gold, at 10 min., WP and dry.

-one question I do have on the GP: I recall Cire indicating he feels GP can easily get overwhelmed by a lot of crystal, in particular dark crystal. I'm reminded of older comments you made re: Warminster in the same vein - let it shine, without too much else to overwhelm it. (In fact relative to the best, above, likely eliminating the 120 crystal and pulling the 55 L down to 3.5%; adding 30K Brupak to deepen the color). Would you think a crystal at 5% would impact the GP significantly?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The Flyer isn't coming at a discount - $11 US v. $12 US for their other hops.

Hmm - that feels a bit cheeky, I'd be tempted to point out the age and see if a deal could be done....

I recall Cire indicating he feels GP can easily get overwhelmed by a lot of crystal, in particular dark crystal. I'm reminded of older comments you made re: Warminster in the same vein - let it shine, without too much else to overwhelm it. (In fact relative to the best, above, likely eliminating the 120 crystal and pulling the 55 L down to 3.5%; adding 30K Brupak to deepen the color). Would you think a crystal at 5% would impact the GP significantly?

Yep, I'd stand by that, no point in paying for the premium base malt if you then swamp it with crystal. And just from a regional perspective, GP implies you're in Yorkshire or further north, in which case you're generally using a lot less crystal than down south.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Hmm - that feels a bit cheeky, I'd be tempted to point out the age and see if a deal could be done....

Yep, I'd stand by that, no point in paying for the premium base malt if you then swamp it with crystal. And just from a regional perspective, GP implies you're in Yorkshire or further north, in which case you're generally using a lot less crystal than down south.

OK great, many thanks. If I recall correctly for a Warminster strong bitter you made the suggestion to pull back from 5%ish percent crystal, so I pulled to 3.6% and increased the invert. I also am thinking rather than a blend of 55L and 130-165L (Baird's, IIRC), I was thinking of a blend of Simpson's DRC and the 55L...with 55L doing the lion's share. So:

-did I understand correctly, you thought even less than the "standard" 5% in many northern bitters, something like 3.5% might be better used in these premium base malts?

-of the crystal, what would you think about some of it coming from DRC?

Edit: sorry, on the 2018 hops. Northwest Farms indicated to me they're soon getting newer hops across many of their British 2018-2019's. So holding off. But you're right, I also find it odd they're charging the same and good idea, I'll take it up with them. Awaiting First Gold, Bramling Cross, Challenger and Northdown though the Northdown is '19. A bit impatient to work on the strong bitter with close to a Fuller's hob bill, to be honest, and I guess I could swallow '19 over '18.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

-did I understand correctly, you thought even less than the "standard" 5% in many northern bitters, something like 3.5% might be better used in these premium base malts?

5% isn't the standard, it's just what they use down south. Up north the standard might be 1.5% - or even none at all in Manchester and Sheffield. As I'll keep on saying, Boddington's is just as much a bitter as a crystal-heavy beer from the south, both are extremes on a spectrum.

-of the crystal, what would you think about some of it coming from DRC?

I've only used it once, but my understanding is that you shouldn't think of it as a crystal, it's not really intended as an "accent" malt for session beers, the idea is more to go for it with 10% in strong beers. But others with more experience of it may have other ideas.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

5% isn't the standard, it's just what they use down south. Up north the standard might be 1.5% - or even none at all in Manchester and Sheffield. As I'll keep on saying, Boddington's is just as much a bitter as a crystal-heavy beer from the south, both are extremes on a spectrum.

I've only used it once, but my understanding is that you shouldn't think of it as a crystal, it's not really intended as an "accent" malt for session beers, the idea is more to go for it with 10% in strong beers. But others with more experience of it may have other ideas.

OK, thanks, I misapprehended the "standard" then. And good to know on the DRC - planning for it in the RIS but will consider upping the %. I like your notion of "going for it" in strong beers. Something like being parsimonious with truffles in a tasting menu surrounding them. You either go all in or none at all.

Still trying to see if Happy Brewer will sell Brupak to me here. I've eliminated the crystal to 1.4% but upped the invert sugars higher - No. 2 at 9.4% and No.3 at 2.9% (previously, I only had the #2. Essentially, I've switched out some crystal for the No. 3 invert). What are your thoughts on this? Lighter really than I like but willing to open my mind to best bitters of a lighter hue, at least until I get the Brupak. (old habits, drink with your eyes, etc.).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Lighter really than I like but willing to open my mind to best bitters of a lighter hue, at least until I get the Brupak. (old habits, drink with your eyes, etc.).

Well just have a look round Untappd - here's Taylor's Landlord, which some would say is the greatest of all current bitters :

The modern classic that is Marble Pint :

Darwin's Origin from Salopian, current (and multiple) CAMRA's national Session Bitter category Champion :