20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

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Thank`s a lot for that very interesting thread.
I work at the craft Cervejaria Bodebrown in the city of Curitiba ( southern Brasil ) . Last friday we made 150 kg ( about 300 lbs ) of candi syrup for a tripel. We were shooting for some rose color ( 250 F ) but by the time we reached that temperature the color was too dark and it looks like the deep amber color ( 290F ) . Any suggestion about how to correct our mistake ? That said the result turned very delicious but more suited for a dubbel .

Jacques
 
Holy crap, and I'm complaining about 7.5kg being hard to make!

I think the longer boil to evaporate off the water in a big batch leads to a lot of caramelization and maillard reactions before you even get past the soft ball stage. That was my experience with the batch I did. We finished around 125C with the color of a deep amber batch and the caramel complexity of a medium amber batch without coming close to those temperatures.

Incidentally, what did you use to cook that much sugar? We struggled with a 25L pot for 7.5kg so I can't imagine the vessel required for 150kg.
 
Thank you Fat Dragon for your suggestion. It looks like that for big volumes the curve color Vs temperature dosn't apply. We produced the 300 lbs in the Bliechmann panel

FB_IMG_1490924362318.jpg
 
Anyone else make any batches that won't ferment? I've been making syrups for beers for many years and some times they won't ferment. I do fermentation tests on each batch to make sure all is good before using any in my beers. I'd be interested to know if anyone has had similar experiences.
 
Will be making a caramel porter next and some questions. I made an old ale that came out very well after an attempt to make dark (no 3) invert sugar following these directions: http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert

The difference between that recipe and the recipe here is that to get the syrup dark you cook it for a very long time instead of using a high temperature.

I tried it by dissolving the sugar on a stove top and then sticking the stuff in the oven because I don't have a candy thermometer. I cooked the stuff for hours and hours at low temperature and the temperature just never darkened and I finally got bored and cranked up the temperature in steps, eventually to 285 Fahrenheit and let it cook.

Ended up with DELICIOUS but insanely sticky and difficult to deal with caramel syrup. The actual beer came out well as well, had a complex almost smoky taste that went over well.

I was fumbling around but the beer turned out well so I'm thinking of I should try to replicate what I did before or follow the instructions on this thread.

How much of a difference does using acid to invert the sugar vs. putting in yeast nutrient do?
 
eimar said:
Thank you Fat Dragon for your suggestion. It looks like that for big volumes the curve color Vs temperature dosn't apply. We produced the 300 lbs in the Bliechmann panel
Click to expand...

How did you avoid a massive boilover? Our sugar expanded like crazy, which is why we stopped short of our target temperature, but you seem to have that kettle basically full without any boilover.

Bosh said:
Will be making a caramel porter next and some questions. I made an old ale that came out very well after an attempt to make dark (no 3) invert sugar following these directions: http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert

The difference between that recipe and the recipe here is that to get the syrup dark you cook it for a very long time instead of using a high temperature.

I tried it by dissolving the sugar on a stove top and then sticking the stuff in the oven because I don't have a candy thermometer. I cooked the stuff for hours and hours at low temperature and the temperature just never darkened and I finally got bored and cranked up the temperature in steps, eventually to 285 Fahrenheit and let it cook.

Ended up with DELICIOUS but insanely sticky and difficult to deal with caramel syrup. The actual beer came out well as well, had a complex almost smoky taste that went over well.

I was fumbling around but the beer turned out well so I'm thinking of I should try to replicate what I did before or follow the instructions on this thread.

How much of a difference does using acid to invert the sugar vs. putting in yeast nutrient do?
Click to expand...

This will be extremely anecdotal, but I've used DAP, lemon juice (for acid), and nothing at all in syrups like this before. The sugar with no additives was very finicky and burned easily, even giving burnt flavors at lighter colors. With lemon juice for acid, it was a bit finicky and I had to be very careful not to overcook it, and the flavors were more caramel and less stone fruit. DAP has been a bit more forgiving and it offers by far the most complex flavors of the three methods I've tried. What I haven't done yet is a batch with pure acid added. It's possible my lemon juice batches have simply had too little acid to finish the job.
 
FatDragon said:
How did you avoid a massive boilover? Our sugar expanded like crazy, which is why we stopped short of our target temperature, but you seem to have that kettle basically full without any boilover.


.
Click to expand...

By setting the burner to minimum heat. It took us ... 7 hours.

Today we produced half of that amount ( about 80 kg op 160 pounds of sugar ) in 3 hours but we almost had a boilover.

Once again we confirm that for a big quantity one has to check the color visually and not rely on the temperature reading.

Jacques
 
eimar said:
By setting the burner to minimum heat. It took us ... 7 hours.

Today we produced half of that amount ( about 80 kg op 160 pounds of sugar ) in 3 hours but we almost had a boilover.

Once again we confirm that for a big quantity one has to check the color visually and not rely on the temperature reading.

Jacques
Click to expand...

This gives me hope that I can make the ~20kg batch for a 300L clone of my quad in my 35L kettle. Just gotta find the time and a big enough pitch of Rochefort yeast to convince the brewer to let me do it, and a couple more kettles and cooktops to do some wort reduction during the boil of course.
 
FatDragon said:
How did you avoid a massive boilover? Our sugar expanded like crazy, which is why we stopped short of our target temperature, but you seem to have that kettle basically full without any boilover.



This will be extremely anecdotal, but I've used DAP, lemon juice (for acid), and nothing at all in syrups like this before. The sugar with no additives was very finicky and burned easily, even giving burnt flavors at lighter colors. With lemon juice for acid, it was a bit finicky and I had to be very careful not to overcook it, and the flavors were more caramel and less stone fruit. DAP has been a bit more forgiving and it offers by far the most complex flavors of the three methods I've tried. What I haven't done yet is a batch with pure acid added. It's possible my lemon juice batches have simply had too little acid to finish the job.
Click to expand...

Looks I got really lucky with my bumbling around then. I think my caramel was just about to start burning when I took it out but I took it out at the nick of time and it just had a bit of smoky flavor that was nice. But I don't think I'll have the luck to recreate that exactly.

Did some reading on this stuff and apparently these cooked sugars get their flavor from caramelization and Maillard reactions. Maillard reactions are really dependent on nitrogen which is exactly what the DAP is full of.

It also seems that if British dark invert syrup is cooked for longer at lower temperatures than Belgian candi sugar that you'd expect to get more Maillard reaction flavors and less caramelization flavors.

So what I'm thinking of doing is the long slow cook and see if having the DAP makes a difference in terms of getting Maillard reactions going.

From my very limited experience I seem to like dark sugar candi and syrups more than crystal malt when it comes to flavor so this is something I'll keep on experimenting with.
 
Just offering up some advice for readers dreading the thought of reading 57 pages of discussion: The original recipe in post #1 works great.

I followed the directions, used the original ingredients, and got #5 double-cooked dark amber with no issues. I used the often recommended hint of not taking the final boil to 240F and just stopped after the second water addition (i.e. 3 cups water total) was mixed in. Maple syrup consistency, no crystals, color looks close enough for government work, and has a very tasty caramel flavor with raisins, figs, etc. Turn on the range hood or open the windows, the ammonia will stink a bit during the first heating, but is not present in the final product.

It's going in the Caramel Amber Ale this weekend, but now I'm excited to brew some Belgians!
 
Hey all,

Looking for some quick feedback if possible (brewing this afternoon). I made a batch just a bit ago but will probably throw it out and try again within the next hour.

I was trying to make a 1lb recipe of the 290 degree syrup, so I halved all ingredients and set them over low/med heat. I stayed on the low side from all the stories I'd read about heating too quickly.

The mixture reached the 240 mark and seemed just fine, but it gradually began to darken without the temp exceeding 250 or so. By the time it reached a medium amber color, I noticed that the sugar had begun to crystallize quite a bit.

Suspecting I had boiled all my water off and was scorching the sugar at this temperature, I stirred the solution and saw that there were some darker brown chunks on the bottom and sides of the pan, which seems to confirm my suspicion. I added some of the final water addition to drop the temperature and see how much "sputtering" would happen. It quickly began re-boiling the water, but I don't think I was anywhere near 240. After transferring the "syrup" to a mason jar, it is now cooling off and has the consistency of watered down sugar.

This makes me think I either got my water measurement wrong initially (unlikely in my opinion), heated too slowly (possible but I'm not sure if this really makes sense), or something that I can't readily identify. Any help would be much appreciated.
 
morbster said:
Hey all,

Looking for some quick feedback if possible (brewing this afternoon). I made a batch just a bit ago but will probably throw it out and try again within the next hour.

I was trying to make a 1lb recipe of the 290 degree syrup, so I halved all ingredients and set them over low/med heat. I stayed on the low side from all the stories I'd read about heating too quickly.

The mixture reached the 240 mark and seemed just fine, but it gradually began to darken without the temp exceeding 250 or so. By the time it reached a medium amber color, I noticed that the sugar had begun to crystallize quite a bit.

Suspecting I had boiled all my water off and was scorching the sugar at this temperature, I stirred the solution and saw that there were some darker brown chunks on the bottom and sides of the pan, which seems to confirm my suspicion. I added some of the final water addition to drop the temperature and see how much "sputtering" would happen. It quickly began re-boiling the water, but I don't think I was anywhere near 240. After transferring the "syrup" to a mason jar, it is now cooling off and has the consistency of watered down sugar.

This makes me think I either got my water measurement wrong initially (unlikely in my opinion), heated too slowly (possible but I'm not sure if this really makes sense), or something that I can't readily identify. Any help would be much appreciated.
Click to expand...

I just finished my second batch, and it looks like it turned out perfectly. I think I may have forgotten to mix the sugar/water/DAP at the beginning.

I will echo one suggestion I saw several pages back. When my thermometer showed 290, the syrup was a golden amber. It wasn't until about 310 that it turned the rich brown/red I was looking for. I can't really taste anything due to the ammonia smell that's been around for the past 4 hours, but I don't expect any burned flavors. The lesson learned is to gauge the doneness based on the color of the syrup, not the temperature reading. Cheers.
 
IslandLizard said:
The wort with the DAP creates a more yummy tasting syrup than DAP alone, IMO. I envision the complex sugars from the wort add a whole new dimension to the melanoidin production and the resulting syrup.
Click to expand...

A lot of the flavor development utilizing the maillard process is dependent on the nitrogen source. In the case of wort the amino acids and proteins are resulting different (tasting) maillard products. If I remember correctly RyanBrews was experimenting with how different sources of the amino acids produce unique flavor profiles.

https://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html
 
Huge thread, so apologies if it's been discussed, but what are the approx SRM/EBC of each syrup as per the recipes?
 
6fn said:
Huge thread, so apologies if it's been discussed, but what are the approx SRM/EBC of each syrup as per the recipes?
Click to expand...

I think the biggest color impact I've had from one of these syrups has been on par with roughly 60L grain in the same weight, and that was from a darker than usual batch of the double-cooked sugar. For a typical single-pass deep amber batch, I tend to get color contributions in the 35-40L range, though this is all very anecdotal and not based on any actual color measurement so take it with a grain of DAP.
 
Excited to try this for a dubbel this winter and for an English mild come spring. Probably plan to use the 290 for both, maybe half 290 and half invert for the mild...well see.
Thanks!
 
Just put a full quart of the 290 from the original recipe into my Christmas ale. Color was spot on and the flavors had me scraping the leftover syrup from the sides of the jar. Good stuff.

My biggest issue is that the 290 is done viscous stuff and it took quite a bit of time over my fermenter scooping it out. (Doing a high-krausen addition to my Belgian Christmas ale). Other than that I really look forward to the results in a few weeks and the almost 3% boost in ABV should make Christmas that much warmer in the house.
 
Ok, I'm almost through reading the whole thread and loving it!

A question for you more chemistry inclined than myself -

I am planning on making the famous Westvleteren XII and the recipe calls for using yeast nutrient as this is a very yeast driven beer. So, if I'm using DAP in my candi syrup, do I still need to add this nutrient?

Also, I'm still in two minds about doing a home made D-180. Has anyone had success with it?

Thanks for all the great info guys!
 
hermanpeckel said:
Ok, I'm almost through reading the whole thread and loving it!

A question for you more chemistry inclined than myself -

I am planning on making the famous Westvleteren XII and the recipe calls for using yeast nutrient as this is a very yeast driven beer. So, if I'm using DAP in my candi syrup, do I still need to add this nutrient?

Also, I'm still in two minds about doing a home made D-180. Has anyone had success with it?

Thanks for all the great info guys!
Click to expand...

I've never brewed that beer, so I hope you've got some awesome directions for it. I've tasted some truly excellent cloning efforts by very accomplished brewers, and although very good, no, none of those were even close to the original. Everytime I drink a Westy (sadly, it isn't often) I always say "how do they do that?"

The DAP breaks down during the sugar transformation process, you can smell some of the ammonia being released early on in the cooking process. I'd say add a fresh nutrient mix of DAP, Urea, ZnCl2 (or ZnSO4) and perhaps some other magic elements when feeding your Westy. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of dead yeast cells in there already by the time you start feeding it, which also helps in adding nutrients, but you could add some "yeast hulls" for good measure.

A few words of advice.
Cook slowly and drop samples on a piece of aluminum foil as you go. They're good reference. Err at undershooting the given temps by 10-15°F until you know what to look for. Once you overshoot, you really can't go back. Using an accurate and quick reacting thermometer prevents surprises. Since I got my Thermapen making candi syrups has become a much more predictive process.

A well adjustable heat source and even heat dispersion under the pot is key. A taller, narrower pot works better than a wider, shallow one. Keep adding (cold) water by the 1/4 tsp as needed, if the temps starts rising beyond your target. The longer you can cook it, the more flavor you'll create.

I've come close to an acceptable D-120, but nothing higher was acceptable to me for adding in significant quantities to beer. I've used them up slowly in baking and cooking. They may use special equipment and processes to create those darker syrups (D-90 and up). Say, cooked under pressure and an inert gas.

You did also read RyanBrew's blog on candi syrups?
 
I've made about a dozen batches of dark syrup, but I have changed my process after making a westy clone early this year and the result finishing (FG) a little too high, and tastes caramelly. The syrup with just DAP tastes great, just too caramelly - so great in a stout. I made a westy clone with D-180 and it was fantastic, so I have a reference. I found other sites talking about using lime to keep the pH high to avoid caramelization. They also use wheat DME, but I could not get that to work for me at all - tried 3 times. This is what I do now:

4oz water. add and dissolve 1 tsp (pickling) lime. let settle. set aside. this is the lime water.
1lb sugar, 1 tsp DAP, 1 tbsp lime water (do not pick up the sediment). apply heat slowly until all sugar is dissolved, then heat can be increased as desired (not too much). Once it starts to boil, add another 1 tbsp lime water - trying to keep pH high and since this led to good results, I keep doing it. now heat to desired darkness. once you've reach desired color/flavor, to prevent crystallization add 4oz water. I pour the hot syrup into a mason jar and secure lid - will store unrefrigerated for months.

This is the pickling lime I use https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0084LZU1Q/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks guys!

After reading your posts I think I will give the Westy a dose of store bought D-180. I have tried three batches of homemade syrup so far, and, while none of them have been bad, the results have certainly been varied. I'd hate to go all the way down the path of a Westy clone only to bug out of the syrup.

That said, my next batch will be a saison, to which I plan to ditch the honey and replace with dark amber. I will definitely keep experimenting with the syrup though. It is great fun, even though my results may not be predictable. And, worse case, I can stock up and use them in different beers.

Oh, and the pickling lime seems a bit harder to find on the island I live on, but I will keep trying. Thanks again guys!
 
I just made a batch of caramelized honey using this basic procedure. The main difference is that no water needs to be added as honey contains sufficient water. I added some anti-foaming agent and it seemed to keep the foam under control. I got the honey to what I'd consider "Dark Amber" at a temperature of 282F. I stopped when whisps of smoke started coming up from the pot. The taste is delicious with notes of caramel and coffee.
 
Oh man I love this, I've been reading various websites about making my own syrup and one thing I'll add is some DME to provide some protein to fuel flavor development in the maillard reaction.
 
I'm trying g to make a batch of sugar #5 with the addition of 1 tbsp light DME.
It keeps foaming up at ~225, have to stir constantly to prevent boilover. I blame the reckless addition of DME.
 
I'm kind spitballin' here, but has anyone considered using a deep fryer to essentially sous-vide or double boil the sugar? You could set your temp for the oil, allow it to be your heat source. So there would be much less chance of overshooting your temp or having localized burning. Just an idea...it might be stupid.
 
Trying to sous vide this sugar with water as the medium is a stupid idea since it would never get hot enough. In oil, on the other hand, sounds like an interesting experiment. Would you seal it up like a sous vide or put it in an open pot like stovetop cooking? If you sealed it up, I wonder if it might have issues with volatile byproducts that you normally boil off in stovetop cooking.
 
FatDragon said:
Trying to sous vide this sugar with water as the medium is a stupid idea since it would never get hot enough. In oil, on the other hand, sounds like an interesting experiment. Would you seal it up like a sous vide or put it in an open pot like stovetop cooking? If you sealed it up, I wonder if it might have issues with volatile byproducts that you normally boil off in stovetop cooking.
Click to expand...

Hence the reason I said oil ;)

I'd probably try it left open, more like a double boiler than a true sous-vide style. Perhaps I'll try it when I get home from deployment.
 
jsharp4684 said:
Hence the reason I said oil ;)

I'd probably try it left open, more like a double boiler than a true sous-vide style. Perhaps I'll try it when I get home from deployment.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I didn't express myself very well there - my intention was to come out in support of your idea as something worth trying, but instead I came off like I misunderstood what you were saying.
 
bmaupin said:
My one question is if there is a better amino source than DAP or DME? Going to try getting some date sugar.
Click to expand...
I've read that DAP as a source is pretty one-note. I used DME, came out good but date sugar sounds like a great idea. I was just in the ethnic aisle at our local grocery store yesterday looking for jaggery when I saw date syrup and thought to myself, hmmm, I wonder if I could brew with that??
 
I used left-over wort from a beer brew as a source of nitrogen. I just added wort instead of water during the process. It's easy to save 1L of wort by freezing it in a plastic bottle. You can decant off the trub from what is left in the bottom of your boil kettle after brewing. I never waste any wort!

I've also been adding 1 tbsp of dextrose (corn sugar) to help reduce solidification when storing the syrup for a long period of time. Supposedly the dextrose interrupts the crystallization of glucose molecules from the table sugar. Seems to work reasonably well; my 1 qt jar of syrup is about 15% crystalized after 2 months.
 
I will throw in my $0.02...

I made a batch of the 290F syrup today. I followed the OPs directions and the syrup turned out GREAT!! I went more by color rather than by temp, which is why I don't have a 290F sample (which was the right call). It seems my instant read thermometer is either off, or my color changes happened at lower temps. Either way, it was a success. Here are my results compared to the OPs.
results.png

(Sorry about my lack of photo editing skills :p) The stuff looks black in the mason jars, but the perfect color on the foil. And the taste....AMAZING! I don't know whether to use it in King Brian's Caramel Amber Ale, or in the English Brown Ale I just brewed. Either way I think it will be a win!
 
I wanted to report back as well. I used the recipe for the sugar #5 and came up what I thought was some really dark candi sugar and it had a lot of great dark fruit flavor that we talk about with this stuff. I brewed it up into a Westy 12 clone, but unfortunately, it seems to have lightened up in the fermenter and several samples have shown that it did not impart enough of the dark fruit flavors we desire for this. In the end, it'll result in a great Triple, but for me, this was a failed experiment leading me to believe that when I need that flavor profile or something that dark, I'm better off purchasing D-180. So sad, I had high hopes since the rocks came out really dark and tasty.
 

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