1st Electric Brew- Some feedback please?

[OldStone]

Hello All,

First let me say I am a rookie brewer. Before this I have brewed 3 stove top batches. I wanted to brew in full 5 gallon batches. Not brew a concentrate and add water at the end. I quickly realized my stove top was not going to cut the mustard. It was taking forever to heat up 5 gallons and could barely get it to a rolling boil. So I decided to go electric and bought a 5500W element and installed in my kettle. I bought a Simple Dragon Controller to control the element. When I brewed today it still took over an hour to get the water (5 gallons) to a boil. I never had to adjust the element output just left it cranked the whole time and the boil never got passed a gentle rolling boil. Definitely was able to reach more of a rolling boil then on stove top but I have to be honest I was let down by the time it took to get to boil and the fact that I never had to turn the element down. (Why the hell did I buy the controller. lol) I was hoping this my switch to electric was going to help me make my brew day more efficient. Can someone tell me if this is normal even when you go electric? I was expecting more efficiency in boil and expected the element to be more then enough to boil 5 gallons quickly? Thanks in advance for any feedback! I have 8 gallon kettle, 5500w element, thermometer and ball valve installed in kettle.

 

[rdavidw]

220v? Are you sure you have a good outlet? I only have a 3,500 watt induction burner on a 220v outlet and I have to turn that down even with 8 gallons in my ten gallon kettle.

 

[OldStone]

Yes using my dryer outlet. Installed GFI breaker in box so no spa box or anything like that. I think it was weird also? I expected more. Obviously you have more kettle surface on the induction burner but I have seen bigger set ups with the 5500w element and never have seen anybody complaining about boil times or not being able to get to vigorous boil. Any ideas on troubleshooting?

 

[rdavidw]

I think Kal uses a 5,500w element for the The Electric Brewery on 20g kettels for 10 gallon batches. He says it takes 40-60 min to go from cold tap water to 149 strike temp with a full 20 gallons. I don't know if you can get a electric meter on your outlet?

 

[BrewMehr]

A dryer outlet usually has a neutral. Are you sure you aren't between one keg and the neutral? It seems to me you can't be getting 5500 watts. I have 4500 watt elements and boil 13 gallons very hard.

 

[OldStone]

A dryer outlet usually has a neutral. Are you sure you aren't between one keg and the neutral? It seems to me you can't be getting 5500 watts. I have 4500 watt elements and boil 13 gallons very hard.

Thanks for reply. Sorry for my ignorance but what do you mean by "Are you sure you aren't between one keg and the neutral?" The feed from the panel is a four wire to 3 prong plug? Is there a way to test the outlet to make sure I am getting proper output at outlet.

 

[rdavidw]

Once you fix your element, you can also speed up your heating times a little with Reflectix. Its cheap and easy to do.

 

[OldStone]

Thanks! That is pretty cool. Never saw that before.

 

[rdavidw]

Thanks! That is pretty cool. Never saw that before.

Only works with electric. Do the lids also. It's a noticeable improvement at getting to temp and holding temp.

 

[Neens_]

Yes there is a way to test the outlet to make sure you have 240 but it requires a multimeter.

It looks like you have the outlet wired for 240, usually the black and red would be hot legs each providing 120 and the white is your neutral.

 

[rdavidw]

Maybe try replacing the 220v fuse?

 

[BrewMehr]

Thanks for reply. Sorry for my ignorance but what do you mean by "Are you sure you aren't between one keg and the neutral?" The feed from the panel is a four wire to 3 prong plug? Is there a way to test the outlet to make sure I am getting proper output at outlet.

Sorry, that should have said "one keg and neutral." Are the black and red wires wired to your element? If you have black and white or red and white wired to the element, you will only get 120v and only 1/4 of the wattage.

 

[BrewMehr]

Thanks for reply. Sorry for my ignorance but what do you mean by "Are you sure you aren't between one keg and the neutral?" The feed from the panel is a four wire to 3 prong plug? Is there a way to test the outlet to make sure I am getting proper output at outlet.

Sorry, that should have said "one leg and neutral." Are the black and red wires (legs) wired to your element? If you have black and white (neutral) or red and white wired to the element, you will only get 120v across the element and only 1/4 of the wattage.

 

[doug293cz]

It really sounds like you have managed to wire your element so that it only gets 120V. Do you have pictures of how your plug is wired, and the insides of your control panel?

Brew on

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

I can boil 15+ gallons with a 5k element, like everyone else I'll say you're likely only getting 120.

 

[BrunDog]

Use a meter and you will stop guessing.

 

[tektonjp]

That would be cheating. Lick your fingers and touch it. If you go "ouch" it's 120v. If it's "huh, what happened, where am I?", then it probably is 220v.
(seriously, get a meter!)

 

[OldStone]

It really sounds like you have managed to wire your element so that it only gets 120V. Do you have pictures of how your plug is wired, and the insides of your control panel?

Brew on

Thank everybody for all the feedback. I will go get a meter today to double check everything but I figured I would post these pics in case someone saw something glaringly wrong in my wiring that would only make me get 120 to the element.

Just out of curiosity would my dryer still work if I was only pulling 120 at the outlet? Just trying to narrow down where issue might be.

I have attached pics of my plug wiring from controller box and controller box wiring. I am encouraged I must have done something wrong rather then my set up not working as I hoped it would. I guess I just have to figure out where I made the mistake? Again thanks in advance for everyone's help and feedback. This is a great community and very generous with their knowledge.

 

[BrunDog]

Your dryer would not work with 120V. My guess is there is 240VAC there.

It looks like your plug is wired for 120V. The white of your plug should not connect to the white of the outlet, as backwards as that sounds. The outlet red and black are the two hot legs. They used white wire in the controller cable but it is not a neutral unless it's wired for 120.

Swap the green and white wires at your plug.

 

[BrunDog]

Also you have green (ground) wired to hot! If grounded at the kettle that thing is charged with 120V!

 

[augiedoggy]

Also you have green (ground) wired to hot! If grounded at the kettle that thing is charged with 120V!

I noticed this as well!

With that configuration you are also only powering the element with 120v (dangerously)

 

[OldStone]

Your dryer would not work with 120V. My guess is there is 240VAC there.

It looks like your plug is wired for 120V. The white of your plug should not connect to the white of the outlet, as backwards as that sounds. The outlet red and black are the two hot legs. They used white wire in the controller cable but it is not a neutral unless it's wired for 120.

Swap the green and white wires at your plug.

Thanks BrunDog! Did what you suggested. 6 gallons of cold tap water to full out boil in 22 minutes! That's more like it. Does that sound about right for boil time? I have included a pic of the swap just to make sure I did what you suggested right? The only thing I had to do was swap the wires at the plug, correct?

 

[OldStone]

Also you have green (ground) wired to hot! If grounded at the kettle that thing is charged with 120V!

does the fix you suggested take care of this issue? I didn't get shocked yesterday. (Thank God!) I have GFI breaker in box. Is that where the ground you speak of is. I don't know what you mean by have it grounded at the kettle?

 

[doug293cz]

Also you have green (ground) wired to hot! If grounded at the kettle that thing is charged with 120V!

Exactly. That system is too DANGEROUS to use as currently wired.

Edit: Never mind. I see you already have it fixed. Should have read to the end of the thread before commenting on an earlier post.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

does the fix you suggested take care of this issue? I didn't get shocked yesterday. (Thank God!) I have GFI breaker in box. Is that where the ground you speak of is. I don't know what you mean by have it grounded at the kettle?

The actual ground wire is the bare copper wire in your dryer outlet. With a three wire outlet, there is no way to bring the ground downstream from the outlet.

In the dryer outlet the white wire is neutral, which should be connected to ground at your main breaker panel. The red and black wires are both 120V (measured to ground), but they are 180˚ out of phase with each other, so between red and black you have 240V. With your three conductor wire, you don't have a red wire, so you have to use the white wire instead. This means the white wire has 120V on it, where in normal practice white wires are neutral, and thus have ~0 volts on them. You should really wrap some red electrical tape around the ends of your white wire at the plug and element, and also around the white wire in the control box, just to remind you (and anyone else that might have contact with your box) that the white is not neutral.

The fact that you don't have any 120V loads on your circuit means there is no current being carried in the neutral wire (except under fault conditions), so the neutral wire is electrically equivalent to a ground wire (since it is connected to ground in your main breaker box.)

Your green neutral/ground wire should be bonded (electrically connected) to your kettle near where the hot wires connect to the element. The purpose of this is to shunt any voltage/current that might come from your kettle if one of the voltage wires accidentally shorts to it. Very important to your safety.

Brew on

 

[BrunDog]

You would have noticed the voltage on the kettle or liquid inside with even an incidental brush. Putting your hand in its liquid with anything rubber soled boots on a dry floor would have been shocking - much less and you were at risk of electrocution.

So I now wonder if your kettle is grounded. What is the green wire at the element side of the controller connected to?

 

[OldStone]

You would have noticed the voltage on the kettle or liquid inside with even an incidental brush. Putting your hand in its liquid with anything rubber soled boots on a dry floor would have been shocking - much less and you were at risk of electrocution.

So I now wonder if your kettle is grounded. What is the green wire at the element side of the controller connected to?

I bought the stock cord they sell with the element and wired that into the Simple Dragon Controller.

I also replaced the old dryer breaker with a GFI Breaker in the box. Wouldn't that shut everything down if anything was out of whack?

 

[doug293cz]

I bought the stock cord they sell with the element and wired that into the Simple Dragon Controller.

I also replaced the old dryer breaker with a GFI Breaker in the box. Wouldn't that shut everything down if anything was out of whack?

The tri-clover fitting on the BK should be in electrical contact with the BK body, and the ground connection would be provided via the tri clover clamp.

Putting a GFCI breaker on a 240V 3 wire outlet (N-H-H) doesn't provide the full protection available from a GFCI. This is because you are using the neutral as the ground, and the GFCI sees current to neutral as normal, whereas current to ground is a fault condition. So, the GFCI won't trip on leakage to neutral/ground in a N-H-H configuration. To get the full level of protection provided by a GFCI, you should replace the three wire dryer outlet with a four wire outlet (which would necessitate changing the plug on your dryer cord.) You would then make no connection to the neutral in your control box or BK, connecting to ground instead.

As you are configured, you have the potential for a shock if you have leakage to neutral/ground. The breaker will still trip in the event of a dead short from either hot to neutral/ground, but leakage less than the breaker rating will not trip the breaker or GFCI. The GFCI will still protect you from electrocution, after you get a pretty good shock.

Brew on

 

[OldStone]

The tri-clover fitting on the BK should be in electrical contact with the BK body, and the ground connection would be provided via the tri clover clamp.

Putting a GFCI breaker on a 240V 3 wire outlet (N-H-H) doesn't provide the full protection available from a GFCI. This is because you are using the neutral as the ground, and the GFCI sees current to neutral as normal, whereas current to ground is a fault condition. So, the GFCI won't trip on leakage to neutral/ground in a N-H-H configuration. To get the full level of protection provided by a GFCI, you should replace the three wire dryer outlet with a four wire outlet (which would necessitate changing the plug on your dryer cord.) You would then make no connection to the neutral in your control box or BK, connecting to ground instead.

As you are configured, you have the potential for a shock if you have leakage to neutral/ground. The breaker will still trip in the event of a dead short from either hot to neutral/ground, but leakage less than the breaker rating will not trip the breaker or GFCI. The GFCI will still protect you from electrocution, after you get a pretty good shock.

Brew on

Thanks! I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me in detail. This is a weldless tri-clover fitting so it has an o-ring on outside of kettle to prevent leaking. There is metal to metal contact from the nut on the inside of kettle. Would this create the necessary ground?

Regardless it sounds like your telling me the safest way to go is swap out the dryer outlet and dryer plug to 4 wire. Does that impact the plug set up on my Still Dragon Controller or if I do that am I good to go?

 

[OldStone]

So I went deep in the garage and found 4 wire dryer plug. So now if I change outlet to 4 wire how does it work with the plug for the kettle? I guess I have to change that also? but 10/3 from plug to SD controller only has 3 wires?

 

[BrunDog]

I'll assume the kettle gets grounded through the plug. Well, in your case connected to neutral.

Did stilldragon give you a manual with this controller. It seems irresponsible to not let users know the white wire is not necessarily a neutral, IMO.

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks! I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me in detail. This is a weldless tri-clover fitting so it has an o-ring on outside of kettle to prevent leaking. There is metal to metal contact from the nut on the inside of kettle. Would this create the necessary ground?

Regardless it sounds like your telling me the safest way to go is swap out the dryer outlet and dryer plug to 4 wire. Does that impact the plug set up on my Still Dragon Controller or if I do that am I good to go?

So I went deep in the garage and found 4 wire dryer plug. So now if I change outlet to 4 wire how does it work with the plug for the kettle? I guess I have to change that also? but 10/3 from plug to SD controller only has 3 wires?

The nut on the inside of the weldless TC fitting will adequately ground the fitting to the BK, as long as you don't put an O-ring on both the inside and outside of the BK. The ground terminal on the element plug should be connected to the TC flange on the element (Stilldragon is responsible for this being done correctly.) Then the clamp that holds the two TC flanges together completes the BK grounding connection, even with the O-ring between the flanges.

The plug type you have is a NEMA 14-30, so you need to replace the dryer outlet with a NEMA 14-30 receptacle, and replace the plug on the cord to the Stilldragon controller with a NEMA 14-30 plug. Drawings for the NEMA 14-30 receptacle and plug are below:



When you replace the outlet, the green (or bare Cu) ground wire goes to the "G" terminal on the receptacle, the white neutral wire goes to the "W" terminal, and the red and black hot wires go the the "X" and "Y" terminals. "X" and "Y" terminals are interchangeable w.r.t. the red and black wires, but it is good practice to keep the letter to color assignment consistent within your project.

When you replace the plug on the Stilldragon cord, the green wire goes the the "G" terminal, the white wire becomes a virtual red wire, and with the black wire they connect the the "X" and "Y" terminals. As mentioned earlier, you should place some red electrical tape around the ends of the white wire in the Stilldragon cord. Note that there will be no connection to the neutral "W" terminal in the new four prong Stilldragon cord plug. You don't need the neutral with this design.

Finally, this video shows how to redo the connections for the four wire cord in the dryer. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eXpYn_vogQ[/ame]

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

I'll assume the kettle gets grounded through the plug. Well, in your case connected to neutral.

Did stilldragon give you a manual with this controller. It seems irresponsible to not let users know the white wire is not necessarily a neutral, IMO.

I dont believe he bought the controller but rather built it from a kit sold by stilldragon...