14lbs Pilsner Mash @ 1.020 after 90min

[calvindcd]

Hello all,
It's the first time posting and hoping somebody.
Then it All Grain Brewer (Batch Sparge) for a few years and this has never happened to me. I brewed a Bohemian pilsner out of Brewing classic styles. I have made this one before and had no problems in the past.
This time, when I brewed it, I mashed for 1 hr. When I checked the 0G, it was 1.024.
The run off looked like yeast, not clear wort.
Checked the temp, it was still 154F.
Went a total of 90 min but still did not had a low OG.
Only thing I noticed with the grain is that the home brew shop crushed my grains and there seemed to be a lot of powder like it was milled to fine.
What caused this?
How do I avoid it?

 

[beerlover77]

Was this a 10gal batch? Are you sure your thermometer is working right? Did you check with a hydrometer at the recommended temp?
If there were whole kernels in there you might have a lower OG
But powder should convert really well.

 

[calvindcd]

Was this a 10gal batch? Are you sure your thermometer is working right? Did you check with a hydrometer at the recommended temp?
If there were whole kernels in there you might have a lower OG
But powder should convert really well.

7.0 gal pre boil.
90 min boil
Should end up with around 5,5 gallons after boil off, and rackings
Thermometer seems to be fine. It's analog not digital.
I suppose that hydrometer could be off
Still never have never had that Cloudy of a wort run off before.

 

[beerlover77]

WHat type of Pils malt and how old is it?
I ran this through the calculator and basically you got >40% efficiency which is basically impossible unless everything went wrong. (I assumed an OG of 1.035)
Example: The Milling was so bad that 1/2 your grain wasn't cracked, your thermometer was out so bad that you went outside of the 142-160f mash perimeter, your read the wort very hot with a hydrometer or the hydrometer is broken.

I get 82% fly sparging and the calculator predicted 1.070... I had a few really bad mills and it onlt went down to 75%

-Check your thermometer in boiling water (should read 212f) and/or in ice water
-Check your hydrometer in distilled water at the calibrated temp (should read 0.00)
-Do you remember what the crush looked like?
-Did you taste the wort as you sparged? Was it sweet?
-Were you using a bazooka screen and were getting channeling? (with batch sparging I doubt this is a problem)?

The cloudyness of the wort should have no bearing on what the OG would be.

 

[jigtwins]

WHat type of Pils malt and how old is it?
I ran this through the calculator and basically you got >40% efficiency which is basically impossible unless everything went wrong. (I assumed an OG of 1.035)
Example: The Milling was so bad that 1/2 your grain wasn't cracked, your thermometer was out so bad that you went outside of the 142-160f mash perimeter, your read the wort very hot with a hydrometer or the hydrometer is broken.

I get 82% fly sparging and the calculator predicted 1.070... I had a few really bad mills and it onlt went down to 75%

-Check your thermometer in boiling water (should read 212f) and/or in ice water
-Check your hydrometer in distilled water at the calibrated temp (should read 0.00)
-Do you remember what the crush looked like?
-Did you taste the wort as you sparged? Was it sweet?
-Were you using a bazooka screen and were getting channeling? (with batch sparging I doubt this is a problem)?

The cloudyness of the wort should have no bearing on what the OG would be.

This is all great advice! Exactly why I like this forum!

 

[calvindcd]

German pilsner Mall from morebeer assuming it's fresh
Milling seamed over milled

My thermometer is analog so I doubt that is the case.
Wort not very sweet
Batch Sparge with bazooka screen
I have no idea what happened

 

[shoengine]

Whether or not you have a mechanical, digital or magical thermometer, you still need to check basic functionality. When I brew I have to have a quorum of readings, and they have to agree.

 

[ba-brewer]

Did you get the grain milled at one of the stores or via online, how long did you have the grain before brewing with it? If the grain was sitting around for while(month or more) milled it can loose potency. I don't buy milled grain but I would hope/think they mill to order if you order online.

I use a refractometer to check gravity as a way of determining that conversion is completed and don't go by time alone. Some days conversion can be slower so I just give it more time. If your run off was still milky or cloudy it sounds like you did not have complete conversion.

 

[prep8611]

What temp was the wort when you measured gravity. Your hydrometer is probably calibrated at 60 or 70 degrees depending upon manufacturer.

 

[calvindcd]

Whether or not you have a mechanical, digital or magical thermometer, you still need to check basic functionality. When I brew I have to have a quorum of readings, and they have to agree.

I will check and let you know

 

[calvindcd]

Did you get the grain milled at one of the stores or via online, how long did you have the grain before brewing with it? If the grain was sitting around for while(month or more) milled it can loose potency. I don't buy milled grain but I would hope/think they mill to order if you order online.

I use a refractometer to check gravity as a way of determining that conversion is completed and don't go by time alone. Some days conversion can be slower so I just give it more time. If your run off was still milky or cloudy it sounds like you did not have complete conversion.

Grains we're 2 days old and I had the store mill Grain.

 

[bleme]

Only thing I can think of that would produce anything like these results is if the grain wasn't malted - either the LHBS pulled from the wrong bag or the maltser had issues.

 

[Smellyglove]

Or not crushed. It has happened before.

 

[bleme]

Or not crushed. It has happened before.

I ruled out crush as OP mentioned lots of flour and even in terrible crush, the wort wouldn't look like that. I don't even need an iodine test to know that cloudy mess isn't converted.

 

[ba-brewer]

The grain seemed fresh and pilners malts usually give slightly higher gravities so maybe misreading of the temp somehow resulting in a lower than normal mash temp so there was a slow conversion. Bleme's suggestion of the wrong grain being pulled maybe, carapils instead of pilsner.

 

[bleme]

Carapils is already converted so it wouldn't be that.

A mash temp of 130F would have converted pilsner malt in 90 minutes so I don't think you were too low. If you were over 170F there would be problems though.

While unmalted wheat is pretty common at LHBS', I don't think I have ever seen unmalted barley before (except flaked and that's easy to spot). Maybe they pulled unmalted wheat by mistake? Maybe the guy who delivered dropped off a bag of unmalted barley on accident? Maybe the maltster put the wrong grain in the wrong bag? Whatever the cause, it's clear that there was no amylase in there.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't have an idea of the problem but will advise the following

Check your thermometer. Analog, digital or whatever, it needs to be accurate.
Check your hydrometer. It should read 1.000 in distilled water at the calibrated temperature not 0.00
Check your crush. But, too much flour would increase your OG not make it lower..
If possible invest in a mill and grind your grains yourself. It will keep things consistent if nothing else.

It seems to me that temperature would have to be WAY off to have been the problem.
Your hydrometer could be way off.
The grain would have to have been un-milled to be that bad.
Even the wrong grains should have given a better OG.
Even Carapils would have given you a higher OG.
You would have had to collect twice as much wort preboil than you needed to get that low so I don't think volumes are the problem.

I'm stumped. The only thing I can come up with is that your measurements are wrong.

 

[ba-brewer]

Carapils is already converted so it wouldn't be that.

I don't think this is completely right. If you mash it with something that has diastatic power it will convert, but if you mash it by itself you only get a portion of potential like when you steep grain with a extract beer.

 

[Rhaop]

I don't think this is completely right. If you mash it with something that has diastatic power it will convert, but if you mash it by itself you only get a portion of potential like when you steep grain with a extract beer.

You should only need to steep carapils



Also what if OP’s mash ph was really high from a pale malt bill and an unknown water profile? I remember palmer discussing conversion changing due to mash ph

 

[ba-brewer]

You can steep carapils but you will not the same gravity points from it as if you mashed it with a base malt. If you replace pilsner base malt with carpils you will not have any enzymes to convert the remaining starches or sugars.

 

[bleme]

I don't think this is completely right. If you mash it with something that has diastatic power it will convert, but if you mash it by itself you only get a portion of potential like when you steep grain with a extract beer.

Anything 'cara', caramel or crystal was malted, then mashed, then dried and roasted. It is basically like an extract, left in the grain. Mashing it again isn't going to get any more out of it.

You can tell this by eating it. The stuff is like candy.

 

[jekeane]

Im assuming you had a epic boiler from the mess on both of those kettles...

If your volumes where where the normally are when you batch sparge and you have done this recipe before then there are only a couple possibilities in my mind. Both have been mentioned.

1. Your hydrometer or refractometer is broken or uncalibrated.
2. You received the wrong grains or some really old bad grain.

If you have successfully brewed batches before and hit on or around your numbers regularly then you would have to have done a myriad of things epically wrong to get that gravity. The ugly cloudy wort could be from the bazooka screen not being able to handle a powdery grind.

I suppose there is some way with to fine of a grind and some massive softball sized dough balls you could accomplish this but even then i have my doubts.

 

[Lefou]

I ruled out crush as OP mentioned lots of flour and even in terrible crush, the wort wouldn't look like that. I don't even need an iodine test to know that cloudy mess isn't converted.

Personal note, don't do this at home....
I got a bad batch of grain. It had weevils.
Instead of simply freezing, I made the mistake of microwaving. Big mistake.
Grain should have a minimum of water content. Microwaving the weevils kills them and their eggs, but dehydrates the grain and destroys the diastatic enzyme potential.
I went ahead and mashed the microwaved grain anyway, and had one of the worst conversions in a long time, almost 20 points off a calculated 1.050 gravity.
After examining my leftover mash I noticed the unconverted grains looked and felt like gel. The wort didn't have a good "hot break" and even though fermentation was OK, the result was a weak and cloudy beer.
It affected hopping as well. Bittering, flavor and aroma all suffered.

 

[ba-brewer]

Anything 'cara', caramel or crystal was malted, then mashed, then dried and roasted. It is basically like an extract, left in the grain. Mashing it again isn't going to get any more out of it.

You can tell this by eating it. The stuff is like candy.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/what-is-malted-grain/table-of-typical-malt-yields

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/steeping-specialty-grains/mechanics-of-steeping

​

 

[Dcpcooks]

Its possible the sugars were stuck in the grains. Since it was a fine grind you could have had a compacted grain bed, channeling etc.,.. do you recall stirring it a few times or did you leave the bed alone?

Another possible scenario, is your hydrometer cracked? I had one with a hairline crack once a bit of wort seeped in and that added a little extra weight which pulled everything down. That led to a bad reading since it wasn’t floating as it should have.

 

[calvindcd]

Checked at 70F

 

[calvindcd]

By the way... Thanks a lot for your feedback.

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

Just getting into water profiles myself but if pH was off wouldn't that cause an incomplete conversion?
That or your strike water was too hot? Possibly destroying a good portion of amylase enzyme?

 

[bleme]

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/what-is-malted-grain/table-of-typical-malt-yields

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/steeping-specialty-grains/mechanics-of-steeping

Interesting chart, but it doesn't list Carapils. Beersmith projects a gravity of 1.033 from Carapils whether you mash it or not. Breiss just says that it can be mashed or steeped.

 

[ba-brewer]

Interesting chart, but it doesn't list Carapils. Beersmith projects a gravity of 1.033 from Carapils whether you mash it or not. Breiss just says that it can be mashed or steeped.

Carapils is the dextrin malt item. Mashing and steeping should give the same results, if they don't that would seem to mean there is additional conversions happening.

If you look at the notes it says there are extra starches and I suspect those can be converted by the surplus enzymes from a base malt, but I did some more looking and found info that says it is immune to enzymes.
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/usingdextrinmalt

When I do beersmith with only 14lb of carapils in an extract recipe the gravity is 1012, if I change to all grain it jumps to 1071 for a 5gal batch(75%BHE). I think the extract result is correct and the all grain result is incorrect as carapils does not have any converting power.

 

[Dcpcooks]

By my understanding Carapils has no enzymatic content but it has an estimated 70% extract efficiency. The sugars have been converted during the malting process. So it will contribute sugars to the wort. It will offer less sugars than a pilsner malt but only the difference between expected extraction rates. Pilsner malt should convert at 85% or greater and carapils should contribute 70% max so it’s only a fifteen percent difference. We’re seeing >50% less efficiency in this mash. If we were talking about a hypothetical fermentation that stalled at 20% attenuation I could see how carapils confused for pilsner malt could be the cause.

If you got “bad Grain” it would have to have been an unmalted grain for that to be the cause of the low extraction rate. I’m not aware of a good reason for a LHBS to carry unmalted grains in the first place so I’m not sure it is something they would have on hand to have miss packed.

I’m of the opinion that the sugars were not captured for either a mechanical or temperature related mash issue. So the fine mill setting created a massive dough ball that prevented conversion or the enzymes were denatured prior to finishing conversion by a hot mash temp.

I’m interested to see if we can isolate the cause on this one!

 

[lump42]

My thermometer is analog so I doubt that is the case.

Unless your thermometer is the glass alcohol thermometer, it can wonder off of the calibration. The analog dial thermometers are especially prone to being off calibration. Dial thermometers usually have an adjustment screw of some sort on the back. Glass thermometers should still be checked. They won't lose calibration but the scale could be off.

 

[Frank-the-Tank]

My guess is the Pilsner malt was not highly enough modified when it was kilned and cured, so there wasn’t enough enzyme production.
Another possibility is it was above 10% moisture when it was cured. This would destroy the enzymes that are supposed to chew up starches into sugar in the mash.

 

[sborz22]

This is interesting and these posts always seem super relevant to my brews. I just brewed a Berliner Weisse that was 50/50 pilsner and german wheat and my pre boil was also strangely very low. I wonder if it could be an issue with the pilsener malt itself. Is that possible with todays quality controls?

 

[ba-brewer]

I seen posts recently that gelatinization temp can vary year to year but it only seems to be an issue if you mash in mid to low 140s range.

Large amounts of wheat can be a problem if they don't get crushed well due to them being smaller than barley. More of an issue for people that don't have their own mill and rely on the LHBS.

 

[Frank-the-Tank]

This is interesting and these posts always seem super relevant to my brews. I just brewed a Berliner Weisse that was 50/50 pilsner and german wheat and my pre boil was also strangely very low. I wonder if it could be an issue with the pilsener malt itself. Is that possible with todays quality controls?

If the LHBS is pulling and grinding your malt, they could make a mistake and you would never know it.
Better off buying a malt mill and buying malted grain that is whole, bagged, and labeled by the malt company.
That way you know what you have. If the LHBS is taking 50# bags and grinding as people order, someone is going to get stuck with the dust at the end of the bag. Don’t think they would throw it out and throw away profit.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Lefou]

Decided to grind my own immediately before doing this last brew.
I've typically gotten 68-70% efficiency with a 60 minute mash and calculated for that during subsequent brews.This time was a bit different.
I extended the mash from 60 minutes to 2 hours at 145F-150F, mashed out, and carefully measured salts for water treatment. Efficiency was about 80% this time around and that was pretty surprising.