1.030 is my curse....

[seatazzz]

So I've been brewing for almost a year, and for my last two something has happened that hasn't before. I brewed a Dead Guy clone 2.5 weeks ago that absolutely stopped at 1.030 (OG 1.070) and wouldn't budge. Gently swirled up the yeast, left for a couple days; no change. Pitched some really good slurry I had and left for 3 more days; no change. Finally said the hell with it and kegged it. Tastes fine if a bit sweeter than previous batches. Wrote it off as a fluke. Well, I brewed a simple SMaSH IPA on 11/26 that is ALSO stuck at 1.030. I've racked (lol) my brains trying to think what was different from previous batches; the only thing I can come up with is they were left in the garage for the first week's fermentation. Garage temp has been 55-60, so the wort should have been in range of 62-65. Brought both of them in the house after the first week to warm up. That's when they stalled. House temp is kept at 67 so wort should have been about 70 or so (I've fermented warmer than that and got good beer). Both were AG. And yes I have calibrated my hydrometer, it's fine. Initial yeast was Safale 05. You would think bringing them into the warmer house would make them go gangbusters, but....alas, no. Any ideas gang?

 

[Yooper]

What mash temps did you obtain? Have you calibrated the thermometer?

 

[NothingRhymesWithCurtiss]

I'm a little confused here: You said the initial yeast was Safale S-05 but also mention pitching slurry.

Was the first yeast you pitched for both of these batches slurry? If so, I'm thinking that it's time for you to pitch some fresh yeast and toss out the S-05 slurry.

 

[seatazzz]

Yooper - mash temp was 150-152. Thermometer is calibrated. Mashed for 60 minutes.

Curtis: Initial yeast for both was fresh Safale 05, rehydrated properly. I keep the slurry around for when I'm doing a bigger beer and want to overpitch a bit.

 

[seatazzz]

Guys I thought of something else...here in Washington (at least where I live) the water quality can fluctuate between the seasons. I haven't really messed much with adjusting my water quality yet, but after some bandaid issues earlier this year, I've been using Campden tabs in my water. Hubby commented a while back that our water pressure was increasing, and the water tastes better than in the summer. COULD the Campden be messing with my fermentation? Long shot I know, but that's the only other thing I can think of that may be doing it. I just did my first 10g batch last weekend, I did NOT treat the water for this one (split into 2 fermenters, used lager yeast in one and slurry in the other, will dry hop one and not the other, it's a fun experiment I'm doing with my brewpub-owning friend).

 

[NothingRhymesWithCurtiss]

Curtiss: Initial yeast for both was fresh Safale 05, rehydrated properly. I keep the slurry around for when I'm doing a bigger beer and want to overpitch a bit.

And.... I'm at a loss. Hopefully the all-knowing Yooper can help you out.

 

[MVKTR2]

What about mash duration, doing an iodine test? pH causing fermentation issues? You did mention water quality concerns. Accams razor would suggest bad temp readings calibrated thermometer or not. One of my worries is the moving of the fermenter around and temperature shock that could be associated with those moves or with a fermenter in a garage which is generally very poorly insulated and prone to large temp fluctuations.

 

[Lambo3]

Guys I thought of something else...here in Washington (at least where I live) the water quality can fluctuate between the seasons. I haven't really messed much with adjusting my water quality yet, but after some bandaid issues earlier this year, I've been using Campden tabs in my water. Hubby commented a while back that our water pressure was increasing, and the water tastes better than in the summer. COULD the Campden be messing with my fermentation? Long shot I know, but that's the only other thing I can think of that may be doing it. I just did my first 10g batch last weekend, I did NOT treat the water for this one (split into 2 fermenters, used lager yeast in one and slurry in the other, will dry hop one and not the other, it's a fun experiment I'm doing with my brewpub-owning friend).

Shouldn't be an issue if you are waiting at least 24 hours after you use a campden tablet. Wine makers use these all the time to sanitize their brew before pitching yeast - but you have to give it 24 hrs to do it's thing and lose potency.

Are you certain your hydrometer is reading correctly? Tested it in plain ol water recently?

 

[seatazzz]

Shouldn't be an issue if you are waiting at least 24 hours after you use a campden tablet. Wine makers use these all the time to sanitize their brew before pitching yeast - but you have to give it 24 hrs to do it's thing and lose potency.

Are you certain your hydrometer is reading correctly? Tested it in plain ol water recently?

I "may" have skimped a bit on the 24 hour thing. But no more than 12 hours. And I checked the hydrometer in plain water, it's right on the proverbial nose. I'm leaning more towards the Campden issue.

 

[dwhite60]

I know your thermometer is calibrated but, I'd go buy another thermometer. I've made LOTS of good beer with just a cheap Taylor brand meat thermometer.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/tay...ial-instant-read-thermometer/9135989.html?utm

Unless you're mashing at 160F I don't see how you could end up with that high a final gravity.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[seatazzz]

Grain bill for this one was almost 17 lbs, so a higher OG makes sense to me....but I asked Santa for a new thermometer & a refractometer for Christmas anyway.

 

[nDub]

I "may" have skimped a bit on the 24 hour thing. But no more than 12 hours. And I checked the hydrometer in plain water, it's right on the proverbial nose. I'm leaning more towards the Campden issue.

I use campden tablets to de-chlorinate my water. At most I wait an hour before heating it up for mash. I've never had an issue with fermentation stopping so I don't think that it is the issue.

I'm with the others. The mash temp is high ...or maybe you're using lots of specialty (crystal etc) malts?

edit: Or your hydrometer is broke...

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

Try a second hydrometer? Something sounds ... odd.

 

[Lambo3]

Even IF campden was an issue, your second charge of yeast would have resolved it.

 

[The_Bishop]

You are checking with a hydrometer and not a refractometer, right?

 

[Yooper]

I use campden tablets to de-chlorinate my water. At most I wait an hour before heating it up for mash. I've never had an issue with fermentation stopping so I don't think that it is the issue.

I'm with the others. The mash temp is high ...or maybe you're using lots of specialty (crystal etc) malts?

edit: Or your hydrometer is broke...

The reaction with campden (potassium metabisulfite) and chlorine is instantaneous, and so there is no need to wait. Just stir, and it'll be fine to use immediately.

Something is wonky for sure, but the OP said they used a calibrated hydrometer (not a refractometer) so it's puzzling for sure. There is no reason at all that the beer should stick at 1.030 if the thermometer is accurate and the hydrometer is even reasonably close to 1.000 in distilled water.

 

[skraeling]

hell I dont even rehydrate (i never do anymore). I just did the christmas ale with us05 and I went from 1.074 down to 1.010 on the dot.

 

[seabrew8]

Where did you get this yeast? Have you tried notty? I never had any issues like this with us-05 though. It sounds a bit off for sure.

What kind of test jar do you use? Just throwing it out there..

Maybe you got a bad batch of yeast? Just another stab in the dark... but you would think the slurry would of fixed that.

Water was my first thought but you don't seem to have an issue with that.

Just mark it down to the beer gods i guess.

 

[GPP33]

I know your thermometer is calibrated but, I'd go buy another thermometer. I've made LOTS of good beer with just a cheap Taylor brand meat thermometer.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/tay...ial-instant-read-thermometer/9135989.html?utm

Unless you're mashing at 160F I don't see how you could end up with that high a final gravity.

All the Best,
D. White

I'd think you'd need to be warmer than that to end at 1.03. X2 on re-verifying your thermometer, especially if it's a dial or digital unit.

What was your grain bill?

 

[Atlmustang]

I do not rehydrate US-05 and I never have issues. The package itself says to simply sprinkle the dry yeast onto the wort. I have never ever ever had an issue with US-05 not achieving efficient attenuation this way.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

Because you say that the beer tastes sweet, I would think that the high FG is not from dextrins from a higher mash temperature, but like you suspect, from fermentation not finishing. On a big beer, how well it finishes depends on the yeast strain (and expected attenuation, alcohol tolerance, etc), the age of the yeast, the rehydration of the yeast, the amount of the yeast pitched, the amount of oxygen available, the nutrients available, and the temperature of the fermentation. Sometimes we'll get a great finishing gravity if we're off on just one, maybe two, of these variables, but the more factors we fall short on, the more likely we end up with a sweet, unfinished beer. Whenever I get an unexpected FG that doesn't taste right, I look at these first.

 

[Lambo3]

Did you aerate your wort good?

Also, I rarely make a beer without a starter anymore. Starting with a healthy large yeast count really helps. I know it adds complication, and many will say unnecessary, but watch how quick a batch of beer takes off with a starter and you'll be a believer.

That said, a LOT of good beer is made without a starter... it is just one more area that you can eliminate as a potential issue.

 

[kh54s10]

Did you aerate your wort good?

Also, I rarely make a beer without a starter anymore. Starting with a healthy large yeast count really helps. I know it adds complication, and many will say unnecessary, but watch how quick a batch of beer takes off with a starter and you'll be a believer.

That said, a LOT of good beer is made without a starter... it is just one more area that you can eliminate as a potential issue.

Aeration is not critical when using dry yeast. It is engineered with oxygen reserves. Though aeration won't hurt and may help.

Making a starter with dry yeast is not recommended. The yeast is engineered to either sprinkle on the surface or re-hydrate then pitch.

Some say pitching into a starter will kill off half the yeast then during the starter time you might build back to what was in the pack to begin with.

 

[Lambo3]

Aeration is not critical when using dry yeast. It is engineered with oxygen reserves. Though aeration won't hurt and may help.

Making a starter with dry yeast is not recommended. The yeast is engineered to either sprinkle on the surface or re-hydrate then pitch.

Some say pitching into a starter will kill off half the yeast then during the starter time you might build back to what was in the pack to begin with.

Why would pitching into starter kill off half the yeast if you rehydrate properly? I don't see why it would be any different than pitching into a wort.

 

[kh54s10]

Why would pitching into starter kill off half the yeast if you rehydrate properly? I don't see why it would be any different than pitching into a wort.

If you rehydrate there is no need for a starter. If you are making a beer of 1.070 or less there is plenty of yeast in one pack. If you are making a big beer, it is far easier and not significantly more expensive to just pitch another pack of dry yeast.

It is the starter wort than is said to kill the yeast before the cell membranes can hydrate. Plain water is better.

 

[GPP33]

Wow, lots of hearsay in this post. I won't claim to know anything about proper pitching technices of dry yeast but I can tell you that (a) a high mash temp can and will result in a sweeter beer and (b) making a yeast starter doesn't guarantee a quicker start to fermentation.

Again I'll ask, what was the grain bill?

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

I've found that whether I'm using dry or wet yeast (i.e. Smack packs) if I make a yeast starter and put it on a stir plate.. After 2 days or so, as long as the yeast is still suspended and active, my beers always start fast and finish completely.
I was having the same problem as you until I began using the stir plate.

 

[TheMadKing]

Aeration is not critical when using dry yeast. It is engineered with oxygen reserves. Though aeration won't hurt and may help.

Making a starter with dry yeast is not recommended. The yeast is engineered to either sprinkle on the surface or re-hydrate then pitch.

Some say pitching into a starter will kill off half the yeast then during the starter time you might build back to what was in the pack to begin with.

Sigh...

Ok, first of all, dry yeast isn't "engineered" any more than liquid yeast. Its the same thing, just dried out.

You absolutely need to oxygenate your wort for both dry and liquid yeast. The oxygen is used to build glycogen reserves in the yeast cell walls during the lag phase. These reserves are then used to create the cell walls of new yeast cells during budding.

The yeast can't possibly be "engineered with oxygen reserves" because the yeast cells you pitch multiply, then those new cells aerobically respirate then multiply and so on. Since oxygen is not a heritable resource, you need oxygen in your wort for every cell that's not first generation.

Making a starter with dry yeast won't hurt anything, though it is a waste of effort imo. Pitching it into 1.040 starter wort is less likely to rupture cell walls than pitching it directly into 1.050+ beer.

Agreed that rehydration is the best option with dry yeast, but other options will not hurt your beer.

Pitching into a starter, even IF it kills have your yeast, will result in more total cells than you started with. Check it on a yeast calculator.

50% viability of 200 billion cells, means you would be effectively pitching the same number of cells into the starter that a smack pack contains. The final number of cells is mostly dependant on the size of the starter and the amount of available oxygen/nutrients. 300 billion is a good approximation though.

Please fact check me and correct anything I've said that is wrong.

 

[Lambo3]

Sigh...

Ok, first of all, dry yeast isn't "engineered" any more than liquid yeast. Its the same thing, just dried out.

You absolutely need to oxygenate your wort for both dry and liquid yeast. The oxygen is used to build glycogen reserves in the yeast cell walls during the lag phase. These reserves are then used to create the cell walls of new yeast cells during budding.

The yeast can't possibly be "engineered with oxygen reserves" because the yeast cells you pitch multiply, then those new cells aerobically respirate then multiply and so on. Since oxygen is not a heritable resource, you need oxygen in your wort for every cell that's not first generation.

Making a starter with dry yeast won't hurt anything, though it is a waste of effort imo. Pitching it into 1.040 starter wort is less likely to rupture cell walls than pitching it directly into 1.050+ beer.

Agreed that rehydration is the best option with dry yeast, but other options will not hurt your beer.

Pitching into a starter, even IF it kills have your yeast, will result in more total cells than you started with. Check it on a yeast calculator.

50% viability of 200 billion cells, means you would be effectively pitching the same number of cells into the starter that a smack pack contains. The final number of cells is mostly dependant on the size of the starter and the amount of available oxygen/nutrients. 300 billion is a good approximation though.

Please fact check me and correct anything I've said that is wrong.

I'd agree with all of this. ...yeast count being the key, imo. Aeration of course, being a necessity.

I under pitched a LOT of beer in my early brewing (okay, for years). In fact, I'd say I under pitched everything not knowing it until I started considering how important yeast count is - it should be considered and calculated to make sure you have the right number. There are calculators out there for figuring all of these numbers, both age of yeast, and required count based on gravity and volume.

US-05 supposedly ends up with a count of about 200 billion, that quickly diminishes after package date. A beer of 1.070 needs about 250 billion to be an appropriate pitch rate. If the yeast packet is 2 months old, it is already down to near 50%. So, now you have 100 billion. The easy solution is to pitch 2, which is still under pitching but you'll probably be fine with 200.

I always rehydrate dry yeast, even if making a starter. Some get away with pitching directly to wort, but make no mistake it is an under pitch of yeast, and it will be strained.

I brew 10 gallon batches, so buying enough yeast that might already be at 50% viability gets expensive, so I make a starter to get my count up even with dry yeast. The next phase for me is getting good at washing and storing yeast, but I'm not there yet.

 

[seatazzz]

Wow guys thanks for all the feedback! I've left it for a few days to dry hop and will check it again tonight. FYI, the two batches I did last weekend without treating the water are fermenting just fine, so who knows what happened.

 

[RTL]

If your water pressure is changing odds are your local municipality has switched water sources. Their website should say how many sources they maintain, but may not say which one they are on or when they switch.

I once did a pilot batch of Vienna Lager but I still had the full batch volume typed in my pH calculator. So I ended up adding about 30 times more acid than I should have. The result was a 1.045 beer that wouldn't go past 1.025. If your municipality switched sources and you don't get your water tested it is possible your mash pH could be dramatically different from what you are used to. In a mash as short as 60 minutes on a 1.070 beer the pH will have a dramatic affect on how active the enzymes are and how much they accomplish. Does your beer taste any flatter, or more basic? Does it taste any sharper or more acidic?

How do your build your water for your brews? Are you just trusting your tap water? If so this would be my number one suspect. I would get some amylase extract from your LHBS, add it to the keg and attach a spunding valve to your gas post, and wait. You won't have to worry about blowoff since bulk fermentation is finished and the enzymes will be working very slowly at ambient temperatures.

From what you've stated IMO yeast has nothing to do with your problem. I use dry yeast for about 80% of my beers with no issue.

FWIW you should always rehydrate dry yeast regardless of whether you are putting it in beer, or a starter. I do 25 gallon batches so when I use dry yeast it is always going into a starter after it has been properly rehydrated in de-aerated water. When the yeast is rehydrating it cannot control was is coming through the cell wall because the osmotic pressure is too high, and the yeast is dormant. If you pitch it to wort it is absorbing sugars and other compounds in the wort that it can't deal with yet, and could be absorbing molecules that the cell wall would normally reject altogether (like hop oils that are toxic to yeast). Simply saying that you did it and it made beer is not evidence that it is an optimal practice for good yeast health.

 

[ryanryates]

Would need to know your grain bill to provide an accurate answer. Also, LHBS can often times mess things up. Did you measure the grains and crush yourself, or did you assume your LHBS measured correctly?

 

[homebrewdr]

US-05 has things out about not having to oxygenate, but oxygenation may help. Many answers here are too complicated. My suggestion is to not move your primary until its finished. There is hardly no need for starters in 5 gallon batches unless re harvesting something fancy. If you use US-05 though, a fresh packet sprinkled on wort should be finished in 1 week tops. I personally only re-use liquid yeast, and only for a lower gravity beer than originally used for. When I was new at brewing, I'd only have a stall (which happened 1-2 times), if I moved my fermenter..the temp change is a shock. Let it do its thing.

 

[TheMadKing]

The misinformation in this thread hurts my brain.

 

[RM-MN]

I'd agree with all of this. ...yeast count being the key, imo. Aeration of course, being a necessity.

I under pitched a LOT of beer in my early brewing (okay, for years). In fact, I'd say I under pitched everything not knowing it until I started considering how important yeast count is - it should be considered and calculated to make sure you have the right number. There are calculators out there for figuring all of these numbers, both age of yeast, and required count based on gravity and volume.

US-05 supposedly ends up with a count of about 200 billion, that quickly diminishes after package date. A beer of 1.070 needs about 250 billion to be an appropriate pitch rate. If the yeast packet is 2 months old, it is already down to near 50%. So, now you have 100 billion. The easy solution is to pitch 2, which is still under pitching but you'll probably be fine with 200.

I always rehydrate dry yeast, even if making a starter. Some get away with pitching directly to wort, but make no mistake it is an under pitch of yeast, and it will be strained.

I brew 10 gallon batches, so buying enough yeast that might already be at 50% viability gets expensive, so I make a starter to get my count up even with dry yeast. The next phase for me is getting good at washing and storing yeast, but I'm not there yet.

This statement is a bunch of BS as dry yeast is extremely time stable. It does not degrade in 2 months.

So too is the statement about the necessity of a large pitch of yeast. Adequate aeration of the wort trumps a big pitch every time.

http://brulosophy.com/2015/04/20/yeast-pitch-rate-single-vial-vs-yeast-starter-exbeeriment-results/

Making a starter with dry yeast may be counterproductive and get you fewer viable cells than simply rehydrating the dry yeast.

 

[The_Bishop]

Er, that Brulosophy article you quoted doesn't exactly show that 'adequate aeration of the wort trumps a big pitch.' In fact, it takes the inadequate pitch a much longer time to start fermentation and longer to reach FG, which indicates that the yeast is struggling. In an amber, some of the obvious yeast flaws will likely be hidden (diacetyl, higher ester production).

If you're harvesting and re-using yeast, this practice will lead to a lot of petite mutant cells and an overall change in the character of the yeast.

That being said, splashing wort around isn't 'adequate' aeration. Does it work? For the most part in average beers, you can get away with it. The shortcomings of inadequate aeration will rear it's ugly head in higher gravity beers via incomplete ferments, fusel alcohols, off-flavors, etc.

 

[RTL]

Making a starter with dry yeast may be counterproductive and get you fewer viable cells than simply rehydrating the dry yeast.

Please see my post above, this is not correct. As long as the yeast was rehydrated first THEN propagated in a starter you will end with a higher cell count, as long as the starter is big enough. If the starter is too small then the high pitch you get from the dry yeast will just burn through the sugar so fast the amount of reproduction you get will be negligible. It won't hurt the yeast though, many people employ short duration low volume methods they call "vitality starters," which is just to wake the yeast up, and get the glycogen stores built up so they're ready to rock :rockin:.

If you can get your hands on a copy of "Brewing Science and Practice" by Higgs (google is your friend). Section 12.9 covers the shock induced response of the yeast cell.

 

[mbobhat]

Just my 2c. I think you already pointed out that you think its the campden tablets, as you said earlier that the untreated ones are doing just fine. You do wanna make sure and stir your water up after you dissolve those tablets and maybe do that in a warmer part of your house, or even just use warm water, and let it sit. The water here in the PNW is generally fine just out of the tap, but I do use a carbon filter and the frequency you are brewing it would save you some time and is not expensive. Safale 05 is a beast and should work under most conditions, so I'm going with the chemical add as the culprit.

EDIT: I'm not sure if it was asked, but how much did you add? For cider making, you generally add more when you want to kill yeast, and less when you want to just get rid of chlorine. Like I said PNW water is generally low in chlorine, so you could even add half the recommended dose and be just fine if you wanna keep treating it with campden.

 

[TheMadKing]

Just my 2c. I think you already pointed out that you think its the campden tablets, as you said earlier that the untreated ones are doing just fine. You do wanna make sure and stir your water up after you dissolve those tablets and maybe do that in a warmer part of your house, or even just use warm water, and let it sit. The water here in the PNW is generally fine just out of the tap, but I do use a carbon filter and the frequency you are brewing it would save you some time and is not expensive. Safale 05 is a beast and should work under most conditions, so I'm going with the chemical add as the culprit.

EDIT: I'm not sure if it was asked, but how much did you add? For cider making, you generally add more when you want to kill yeast, and less when you want to just get rid of chlorine. Like I said PNW water is generally low in chlorine, so you could even add half the recommended dose and be just fine if you wanna keep treating it with campden.

Campden treats 20 gallons of water with 1 tablet. 0.2 tablets is all you need for a 5 gallon batch, which is about 0.13 grams.

 

[RM-MN]

Er, that Brulosophy article you quoted doesn't exactly show that 'adequate aeration of the wort trumps a big pitch.' In fact, it takes the inadequate pitch a much longer time to start fermentation and longer to reach FG, which indicates that the yeast is struggling. In an amber, some of the obvious yeast flaws will likely be hidden (diacetyl, higher ester production).

If you're harvesting and re-using yeast, this practice will lead to a lot of petite mutant cells and an overall change in the character of the yeast.

That being said, splashing wort around isn't 'adequate' aeration. Does it work? For the most part in average beers, you can get away with it. The shortcomings of inadequate aeration will rear it's ugly head in higher gravity beers via incomplete ferments, fusel alcohols, off-flavors, etc.

Please note that each of the points I made were separated into paragraphs, each with its own subject. The third part, the Brulosophy experiment, was not intended to support the second part. That second part was in reference to several posts noting that for a lager at least a 2 liter starer was needed but Gordon Strong has stated that he often makes a lager with a single smack pack. If that works well enough to satisfy a Ninkasi Award winner, why must every beer have a starter. If Gordon Strong's beers were so full of off flavors from an underpitched yeast, would he not notice. Something doesn't stack up.

For most brewers, underpitching or overpitching isn't likely to make a noticable difference in their beers. When you start pushing the limits of the yeast by high OG, then I agree that pitch rate is important.

Also RTL needs to notice that I did not reference pitching a rehydrated yeast into a starter wort. You can build more cells but to do so usually requires a 2 step starter. In most beers that larger pitch is not necessary. Pitching a dry yeast directly into wort without rehydrating is reported to kill up to 50% of the cells.