Priming duration with brown sugar

Morning, folks!

So for anyone who has bottle primed with brown sugar, did it take longer than usual?

I have a pumpkin ale that I'm thinking of priming with brown sugar. I'm normally quite patient, but I was hoping to have it ready in time for a camping trip coming up in a month.

This beer has been in primary for 2 weeks now. It has slightly surpassed the estimated FG. I was going to rack to 2ndary this weekend, maybe add some vanilla and let it hang out for 2 more weeks before bottling. I may just cut it down to 1 week in 2ndary, so that it has 3 weeks in bottles before the trip.

I used to bottle my beers with corn sugar, and in 2 weeks they would typically be ready. I started using table sugar instead, and maybe it's just me, but I feel like some of my beers are either taking a longer to carb up, or some aren't even carbonating at all! I'm likely doing something wrong, but I don't know what.

Thanks!
Pete

I stopped racking to secondary a while back and noticed a couple of things. I have less clean up to do, and all of a sudden my beer started carbing up quite nicely! Doesn't matter what I use either; corn sugar, table sugar or brown sugar, they all work the same. All sugars have consistently carbed my beer in one to two weeks when bottling directly from the primary ( ; but hey don't take my word for it just try it for your self and see if you notice a difference. Different styles of beer will obviously taste better the longer they bottle condition and your pumpkin ale might still be a little green in a month if you bottle it now, but it may just be close enough nobody will notice it but you.

Seemed it took about the same.

JLeuck64 said:

but hey don't take my word for it just try it for your self and see if you notice a difference.

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Well, yes... I have tried it. Not to be argumentative, of course, but most times I do skip 2ndary altogether. I bottled a smoked porter about 3 and a half weeks ago that spent 3 weeks in primary. It still hasn't completely carbed up to my liking... It's getting there, but it's taking a bit longer than usual.

I had an IPA that was just undrinkably bad, and it didn't even try to carbonate. I think it sat in the bottles for a month or two before I dumped it. Again, no 2ndary. But I did prime with table sugar.

It's entirely likely that you get better results when you skip 2ndary - I won't say that you're wrong. But I have tried that, and I'm still noticing that my beer doesn't quite carbonate like I would expect. And it's just as likely that I'm doing something else completely wrong.

I've heard of people just using honey to carbonate, or using DME... Along the way, I've heard that something takes longer than priming sugar. I don't recall what. Just want to make sure that brown sugar isn't it.

Thanks for the suggestion though!

Ah! Ok then I assumed a little bit more than I should have I guess. No worries. Let's back up in the process of home brewing a bit and let me ask are you pitching enough yeast? Are you building starters, just pitching a smack pack or dry yeast? Oh, and are you fermenting at a controlled temp? Those two processes (starters and controlled fermentation temps) are also things I remember changing along the way ,that while I did not notice right away, in hindsight probably did make a big difference to increasing the consistency of natural carbonation.

I am sure one of us here on HBT can help you figure it out eventually, it just takes some Q&A of your home brewing process to dial it in ( ;

Hey!

Yup, all (most) of those things! I've been brewing for nearly 3 years now. It didn't take me long to begin making starters as part of my process. So yeah, I do that.

I only just recently started controlling the temp of my ferments. The previously mentioned smoked porter was the first of my batches to be temp controlled. And it has slowly been carbonating. This weekend will mark 4 weeks in the bottle. I'll try another one tonight (if I must). A cherry wheat that I made previously was not temp controlled, but that carbed up beautifully! I don't think the fridge made matters worse though.

Yeah, I don't know - Half of my beers carbonate properly lately. I'm not doing anything different except using table sugar instead of priming sugar. I'm looking at the graph in Palmer's book about how much sugar to use. Given a range of carbonation volumes, I'll lean towards the upper limit. So for say, a porter, if the range is 1.7 - 2.3 volumes, I'll definitely aim for 2.0 or higher, and whatever gives me a good round number of how much sugar to use by weight.

I boil my priming sugar in about 2 cups of water for 10 min, and let it cool. I rack the beer onto it in the priming bucket, then gently stir it for a minute or so more to make absolutely sure it's mixed in there. I also try to let a bit of yeast make it through into the bottling bucket to make sure there's something working in the bottles.

I used WLP001 in that smoked porter. Fermented like a champ! The beer is about 7.2% ABV. I would like to think the yeast is tolerant enough to carb up the bottles. It was good enough to harvest and ferment the next batch of beer. I'm now wondering if THAT beer (a pumpkin ale that I'll be bottling tonight) will also be slow to carbonate? It too, is looking to be about 7% ABV.

So yeah - Thanks for asking questions! I feel like it's every other brew that carbs lately. I'll see how this pumpkin ale turns out in about 2 weeks.

Do you keep your carbonating bottles in an area that is warm day and night? Mid 70°F range is usually good for bottle conditioning.

flars said:

Do you keep your carbonating bottles in an area that is warm day and night? Mid 70°F range is usually good for bottle conditioning.

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Short answer: Yes

Long answer: House had a built in garage. Previous owners converted back half of it into a pantry room. So it's well within the structure of the house. Generally kept around 70 on average. It's a small room with an extra refrigerator in it. So it stays warm in there.

Now we both just might have something in common ( ;

I too have noticed it takes longer for beers with higher ABV to carb up. Just in my experience the ones that get above 7% have noticeably longer bottling conditioning than recipes that are below that level. Are you noticing abnormally long times with just the higher ABV beers as well? Or is what your experiencing happening with lighter beers as well?

When I did my Trappist Ale at 6% with brown sugar, it only took 2 weeks at 71 degrees to carbonate. With 7% it may take just a few days longer.

When I did my Imperial Porter at 10% it took a month to carbonate at 71 degrees. So yes, the higher the alcohol the longer it takes to carbonate.

Consistent bottle carbonation can sometimes be tricky, and I've had several factors come into play. I had more over carbing issues early on than under carbed batches.

There's some obvious things, which seem to have been touched on here, such as proper yeast count and fermentation control. On that note, you just want to make sure you have enough yeast to thoroughly ferment out the batch. If you've done that, there should be plenty of yeast left at bottling (even with a cold crash) to come over at bottling to carb up the batch. I also ferment in a temp controlled refrigerator, and often like the low end of the yeast temp for a week or two, then slowly being up to make sure it attenuates. (Don't want an under-attenuated batch, which can lead to bottle bombs later when the yeast have more than the priming sugar to chew on subside the bottle. I've had gushers and one incident of scary bottle bombs that this might have been the culprit).

The type of priming sugar might vary times slightly, but the online calculators are pretty accurate with amounts recommended for different sugars, and different sugars shouldn't technically cause a huge variance. I have had some batches been perfect at 2 weeks, and some seem to reach full carbonation at 3 or 4 weeks. Beyond 4 weeks, IME, I've probably done something wrong in the process and won't get any more carbonation. A few possibilities to consider, based on things I've experienced:

Are you accurately measuring actual bottling volume (not the volume before racking off the trub)? This final volume will change the recommended amount of sugar in the priming calculators.

Are you monitoring fermentation temps? (Sounds like you are.). For example, if I ferment at mid to low 60's, but raise to 68-70 for a week at the end, I will use the higher temp in the calculators, since the higher temps will push more residual dissolved C02 out of solution (which the calculators also take into account). If you maintained temps the whole way through at, say, 65, a little more C02 should naturally be in solution that if temps were raised to 70. Again, just a detail to increase accuracy when using the calculators.

Assuming you've accurately measured actual bottling volume and fermentation temps (and assuming you are using one of the good priming calculators), are you measuring the recommended amount by weight with a scale (not using "cups" or something that's not by weight)? This could lead to huge inconsistencies either low or high if not measuring by weight.

An odd one: I had two batches ruined before I realized my capper had gone bad and was not giving a perfect crimp. The beer had a slight fizz, but was slowly leaking carbonation, so the beers were basically all flat, and not good. Just something to consider checking out if you never have good carbonation.

I've done plenty of 7% beers, and have carbed just fine. WLP001 should be just fine for that. However, sometimes higher alcohol can make it take a bit longer to carb. As stated above, my experience varies between 2-3 weeks, sometimes 4, for optimal carbonation. Don't necessarily give up before 4 weeks.

Finally (and I swear I'm done - sorry for the long response), on two recent batches, I aimed for 2.3 volumes C02. One on a ~4.5% light pale ale, which has great carb and head on the beer, and the other a 6.5% oatmeal stout. The latter has very little head due likely due to the use of a pound of flaked oats (oils kill the head retention). It's still carbed up just fine, but there seems to be a "perception" of lower carb when I don't see the big fluffy head on it, and it did seem to take an extra week to reach the same carb levels. Anyways, hope some of this is helpful.

BrewinBromanite said:

Are you accurately measuring actual bottling volume (not the volume before racking off the trub)? This final volume will change the recommended amount of sugar in the priming calculators.

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Well..... No.... I guess I'm not. I've been ballparking it. But if I'm looking at say, a 5.5 gallon batch, I rack off 5.25, but I'm still priming for 5.5, aren't I adding more sugar than is necessary? And therefore potentially adding more CO2 volume?

BrewinBromanite said:

An odd one: I had two batches ruined before I realized my capper had gone bad and was not giving a perfect crimp. The beer had a slight fizz, but was slowly leaking carbonation, so the beers were basically all flat, and not good. Just something to consider checking out if you never have good carbonation.

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Got a pretty solid capper... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0089WJ8P4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I have to pry the bottles out a bit after capping, but it doesn't appear to be the issue. I definitely wouldn't say that I "never" have good carbonation. Some do. Just seemingly not with 7% ABV beers brewed with WLP001

BrewinBromanite said:

I've done plenty of 7% beers, and have carbed just fine. WLP001 should be just fine for that. However, sometimes higher alcohol can make it take a bit longer to carb. As stated above, my experience varies between 2-3 weeks, sometimes 4, for optimal carbonation. Don't necessarily give up before 4 weeks.

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Okay, so here's what I'm finding so far.

I brewed an IPA (Hoppiness is an IPA from "Brewing Classic Styles"). I used WLP001, and wound up with a 7.75% ABV beer... It did NOT carbonate... AT ALL... And it also tasted terrible. There might have been another issue or mistake made along the way. No temp control, and brewed in the summer. Mighta had something to do with it.

I also brewed a smoked porter using WLP001, and it too came out to be about 7.25%... Temp controlled ferment. Minimal carbonation.

In between the two, I had brewed a cherry wheat beer using WLP320 Hefeweizen. No temp control (Hadn't set up mini-fridge yet). Carbonated like a champ!

I checked White Labs info, and yeah, WLP001 should be fine up to 10-15% ABV according to their description.

All of these beers were made with yeast starters, and all of their fermentations went smoothly (regardless of temp control).

I harvested the yeast from the smoked porter the same night I had bottled it. The following weekend, I had used the harvested yeast in my current pumpkin ale. So when I pitched that slurry, my porter was allegedly still carbonating, and I had no idea that the bottles wouldn't completely carb up. So now I have another 7% beer with that same WLP001... It hasn't even been a full week since I bottled the pumpkin, so I don't know how it's going in there. I'm not going to know until next weekend. If this doesn't carb properly, then perhaps I'll ditch the slurry, and eventually try brewing it again with a different strain.

I don't know, it's weird. I've used WLP001 numerous times before without incident.

Guess I'll find out next weekend! Hope for the best!

Thanks!
-Pete

PDevlin75 said:

Well..... No.... I guess I'm not. I've been ballparking it. But if I'm looking at say, a 5.5 gallon batch, I rack off 5.25, but I'm still priming for 5.5, aren't I adding more sugar than is necessary? And therefore potentially adding more CO2 volume?

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>> Yes! If priming based off of 5.5 gal, and you only have 5.25 or less, you are risking over-carbing. Depending on where that puts you, you could be fine or it could be over-carbed and lead to gushers. It's best to measure out priming sugar based on actual bottling volume after racking off the trub and yeast. I picked up an aluminum 36 in yard stick at home depot for about 3 bucks I think, which makes it super easy to measure accurately. I added a gallon of water at a time to the bottling bucket in advance to calibrate. Just lay the measuring stick diagonally, and make note of the measurements at each gallon added. (You actually shouldn't need to add too many gallons before seeing a pattern...) It's added much more consistency/predictability to my process for bottle carbing, and I haven't had gushers since. If your bottling bucket it translucent enough, you can just mark it on the outside with a marker, but I like the ruler, as you can easily measure increments between gallons.

PDevlin75 said:

Got a pretty solid capper... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0089WJ8P4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

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>> I use the common red wing cappers, so I don't have any comments on that model. They work well, minus the one bad one I had that wouldn't crimp completely, and I didn't realize it was the problem until 2 batches in.

PDevlin75 said:

I have to pry the bottles out a bit after capping, but it doesn't appear to be the issue. I definitely wouldn't say that I "never" have good carbonation. Some do. Just seemingly not with 7% ABV beers brewed with WLP001

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>> I'd start with taking good notes, trying to measure certain things (such as how high your ferm temp gets, actual bottling volume, etc.), so you have a better starting point to dial in your system. You should see more consistency, and also potentially isolate any particular issue in the overall process. Also, for higher ABV beers, if you're finding they don't carb as well, perhaps shoot for a slightly higher range. Just don't go crazy, as you don't want bottle bombs! If you are shooting, for, say 2.2-2.3 volumes C02 and are unhappy, try increasing to 2.4-2.5 and see if there's a noticeable difference.

Right on, thanks for taking the time for all of that feedback! Guess I'll see how this pumpkin ale turns out next weekend. And I'll try to pay more attention to the bottling volume in the future.

I've also noticed that, with the under carbonated smoked porter, a warm bottle will give more of a hiss and a better head than a bottle that has been in the fridge for even a day or up to a week or two.

No problem! I wish I had found HBT sooner when I first started. Would have had less not so good batches, no doubt, but that's all part of experimenting I guess.

Just a question, on the warm bottles, does the beer seem to have better carbonation that sticks around, or just more of a hiss/head? Until it's been chilled, the C02 in the headspace hasn't had a chance to fully dissolve into solution. I like certain ales a bit warmer than light lagers for sure, but I'd guess that the initial effect of opening a warm bottle doesn't result in a very lasting carbonated glass.