Changing from 120v to 240v system.

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jcs401

jcs401

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I have currently a 2000 watt electric BIAB system I made using a pid with relay and my chigger pump to recirculate the mash. It's currently wired with 20amp cord which is I believe 12/3 I got by the foot from Home Depot. I am trying to figure out since I moved what would I need to do to go up to 240v using my dryer outlet 30amp that is t being used because I now have a gas dryer.
Can I just buy a 240 extension cord to run it from the dryer outlet to the garage where I brew and and swap the 20amp plug on pid control and all wire to a 220 10/3 along with the cable coming from my element to 10/3?? What else am I missing if any? Trying to go up in element size but not spend a fortune doing so if possible
 
I would think that you would roast your 2000 watt element if you run it on 240 volts. You can run 240V elements on 120V and get 1/4 the power, but I don't think you can run 120V elements on 240V.

But yeah, I don't see an issue with what you are proposing as long as your cable, relay, and element can handle the current and voltage.
 
laredo7mm said:
I would think that you would roast your 2000 watt element if you run it on 240 volts. You can run 240V elements on 120V and get 1/4 the power, but I don't think you can run 120V elements on 240V.

But yeah, I don't see an issue with what you are proposing as long as your cable, relay, and element can handle the current and voltage.
Click to expand...


I was going to get a 5500 watt element.
 
Well, it is possible to change your 120v supply over to 240v. I did that very thing about a month ago. However, it's not as simple as swap out the wiring. How is the PID voltage supplied and can it handle 240v? Additionally, are you running the pump off off the controller? If so, I'm guessing the pump is a 120v only. In the event the PID or the pump need 120v, then you need to make provisions for a 120v leg.

Not sure if you've got a contactor in there controlling the flow of electric into the controller. I did and swapped mine out for one that disconnects/connects BOTH hot wires.

Lastly, you REALLY need to insert a GFCI into the mix between the dryer outlet and the controller!!!! Let me repeat that, you REALLY need a GFCI on the circuit!!! I highly doubt there is one currently, if it was used previously for just the dryer.

There might be some other considerations, but those are the ones that come to mind at the moment.

Cheers!
 
jgoldsworthy said:
Well, it is possible to change your 120v supply over to 240v. I did that very thing about a month ago. However, it's not as simple as swap out the wiring. How is the PID voltage supplied and can it handle 240v? Additionally, are you running the pump off off the controller? If so, I'm guessing the pump is a 120v only. In the event the PID or the pump need 120v, then you need to make provisions for a 120v leg.

Not sure if you've got a contactor in there controlling the flow of electric into the controller. I did and swapped mine out for one that disconnects/connects BOTH hot wires.

Lastly, you REALLY need to insert a GFCI into the mix between the dryer outlet and the controller!!!! Let me repeat that, you REALLY need a GFCI on the circuit!!! I highly doubt there is one currently, if it was used previously for just the dryer.

There might be some other considerations, but those are the ones that come to mind at the moment.

Cheers!
Click to expand...


Right now my setup with the pid is as follows,
Using the pid above off amazon it has a I believe 12/3 20amp cord coming from the 20amp outlet which goes directly into the controller with a SSR which is 40amp I believe. Then there is a 20amp single outlet which I plug my element into on the controller. The pid has a thermocoupler thermometer at the top of my lid which I use my chugged to recirculate(which this is NOT plugged into the controller) it is separate plug that I plug into an outlet with a switch.
All wiring inside the pid and cords are 12/3 I believe so I think I would need to change all wites out and take out my 20amp plug on the pid where the element plugs in and insert a 240v plug.
Any of this sound correct or even worth it? Or should I just leave as is and get a second 120v element?? Just having trouble getting a good boil with the single 2000watt element.
 
jcs401 said:
Here is the pid I currently use on my 120v...
Click to expand...

It looks like from the pics on Amazon that it will work with a 240V power input. You will definitely need a nice heat sink that can handle the heat generated by the SSR. I bought mine from Auber Instruments and it is rated for the 40A in free air and gets pretty warm to the touch. The SSR from Auber is rated to 158°F.

jgoldsworthy had a good point about the GFI. I bought a Spa Panel from Lowes for $60 that has a GFI and used that for protection. I just wired this all a few weeks ago and just did a quick boil test and then went on vacation. I am going to brew tonight and give it a real test.

I replaced my 120V 2000 watt element that I had on my heat stick with a 5500 watt element. I had to redo all of my wiring with 10 gauge, but I just ran an extra circuit so I could keep my 20A GFI outlet that I was using for wort boiling (along with the stove as 2000 watts wasn't enough to boil 7 gallons) and use it for my induction burner. I am using Auber's DSPR1 wort boiling controller.
 
You should really add a 30A DPST switch to give you positive power control. SSR's tend to fail in the closed (on) condition. You can use something as simple as a Leviton 3032 "light" switch. The following design should be (close to) what want.

MyPin TD4 only 240V.PNG

Brew on :mug:
 
jgoldsworthy said:
Well, it is possible to change your 120v supply over to 240v. I did that very thing about a month ago. However, it's not as simple as swap out the wiring.
Click to expand...

as long as you have a current SSR that could handle the load, it is as easy as swapping out wiring. you just pull a neutral and use that to have the 120v in your panel. then anything that needs 120v, just use one leg of the 240v and one neutral wire.

I've done it as well as a number of others.
 
Rivenin said:
as long as you have a current SSR that could handle the load, it is as easy as swapping out wiring. you just pull a neutral and use that to have the 120v in your panel. then anything that needs 120v, just use one leg of the 240v and one neutral wire.

I've done it as well as a number of others.
Click to expand...

OP's PID will take 240V for power, and SSR is rated 40A. Pump is run from separate outlet, not part of the controller. So, OP doesn't need 120V in the panel, and can leave out the neutral.

As stated by @jgoldsworthy and @laredo7mm , GFCI protection needs to be added if it is not already in the house's main panel for the dryer outlet. Existing 30A breaker can be swapped out for a 30A GFCI breaker (usually the more expensive option,) or a 50A or 60A spa panel with GFCI can be placed in-line between the dryer outlet and the control panel (usually the cheaper option.) The 30A main panel breaker provides the required over current protection for all the 10AWG wires.

The panel design I provided above needs some kind of three wire 30A plug (unless OP wants to hardwire the feed line,) which is not shown in the drawing. It can be a recessed plug (clean looking, but expensive,) or a plug that sticks out from the panel bottom/side (ugly, but cheaper.)

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
OP's PID will take 240V for power, and SSR is rated 40A. Pump is run from separate outlet, not part of the controller. So, OP doesn't need 120V in the panel, and can leave out the neutral.
Click to expand...

That makes life way easier!
 
If I take some pictures of my pid control box inside and out would someone be able to assist in what wires I will be needing to swap out to get it safely to 220?
 
That looks like a whole house surge protector.

As for the spare 20amp. make sure all your good electronics are turned off to be safe, flip the breaker off and start going around the house and testing the plugs.

or if you have one of those fancy breaker sniffers, you can use that as well. If not, they're cheap anyways.

totally take a picture of the box, might be rough but we can help, it'll help a ton if you have the wiring diagram for it.
 
Here is some pics of the inside of the pid. Basically there is a 12/3 cord coming in that goes to a switch which cuts power to the pid and element outlet. Then there is a relay, and a 20amp single outlet where the element plugs into. Any help on what I would need to change inside would help to get this to work on 240vView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1469055664.328967.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1469055681.298498.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1469055698.884153.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1469055714.651389.jpg
 
jcs401 said:
Here is some pics of the inside of the pid. Basically there is a 12/3 cord coming in that goes to a switch which cuts power to the pid and element outlet. Then there is a relay, and a 20amp single outlet where the element plugs into. Any help on what I would need to change inside would help to get this to work on 240vView attachment 362912View attachment 362913View attachment 362914View attachment 362915
Click to expand...


And don't pay apple toon to the wire colors because I had my brother in law wire it And I he used what wires I had so I don't think he kept colors in sync.
 
jcs401 said:
Here is some pics of the inside of the pid. Basically there is a 12/3 cord coming in that goes to a switch which cuts power to the pid and element outlet. Then there is a relay, and a 20amp single outlet where the element plugs into. Any help on what I would need to change inside would help to get this to work on 240vView attachment 362912View attachment 362913View attachment 362914View attachment 362915
Click to expand...


And don't pay apple toon to the wire colors because I had my brother in law wire it And I he used what wires I had so I don't think he kept colors in sync.
 
jcs401 said:
Here is some pics of the inside of the pid. Basically there is a 12/3 cord coming in that goes to a switch which cuts power to the pid and element outlet. Then there is a relay, and a 20amp single outlet where the element plugs into. Any help on what I would need to change inside would help to get this to work on 240vView attachment 362912View attachment 362913View attachment 362914View attachment 362915
Click to expand...

Your existing control box is basically a 120V version of the 240V design I posted earlier, but without a fuse protecting the PID, and with a thermocouple instead of an RTD. You need to change everything except:
  • The PID
  • The thermocouple
  • The SSR
  • The heatsink
  • The enclosure
Just follow the design I posted above.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
Your existing control box is basically a 120V version of the 240V design I posted earlier, but without a fuse protecting the PID, and with a thermocouple instead of an RTD. You need to change everything except:
  • The PID
  • The thermocouple
  • The SSR
  • The heatsink
  • The enclosure

Just follow the design I posted above.



Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...


So do I need to change all the wiring inside to 10/2 or 10/4 braided wire as well as the switch? Or do I just need to change the incoming supply to 10/3 and change out the outlet to a 220 and the switch to a 220?
 
As far as the wiring goes, everything except the wiring from the PID to the SSR and the power into the PID will need to stay, everything else will need to be 10 gauge. basically the wires coming out of the PID can stay 12g, everything else will need to be 10g.

Just like @doug293cz had that list posted. that is the stuff you can keep. But since the box is pretty small, i'd add a fuse and just use 10/3 wire all over the panel since it would maybe add a foot of extra wire (so an extra buck)
sounds like a lot, but your box is very simple and not much wire in there.
 
where are you located? If there is someone that is local i'm sure they can assist as well.
 
Had a quote to install a gfci 30amp breaker and outlet in my garage and they quoted me 350-450$. I feel that is pretty high considering I'm looking for the outlet directly below the control panel in my garage so no wires really will need to be added. I figure maybe $100 in material but 350-450 is too high so now thinking should I just continue using my 2000watt element I use currently and then add a 1500 watt element I have lying around and when boil time come connect that directly to an alternate outlet using an extension cord?? Would 3500 watts total be enough to get say 6-7 gallons to a rolling boil?
 
doug293cz said:
You should really add a 30A DPST switch to give you positive power control. SSR's tend to fail in the closed (on) condition. You can use something as simple as a Leviton 3032 "light" switch. The following design should be (close to) what want.



View attachment 362737



Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...


So I do not need to use 10/3 wire goi g from the pid/SSR?
 
jcs401 said:
So I do not need to use 10/3 wire goi g from the pid/SSR?
Click to expand...

No. The PID signals that control the SSR are only a few milliamps. You can use very fine wire for this (but less than 20AWG gets harder to handle.) The AC power to the PID is also very low current (less than 5W/240V = 21 mA.) So, you can use fine wire for the AC to the PID also, as long as you put in the fuses I showed. Your 12 VDC power supply will draw less than 75 W, so will draw less than 75W/240V = 313 mA, and can also use down to 20AWG wire (assuming fuses are used.) In the drawing I posted, high currents only flow in the widest lines.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
No. The PID signals that control the SSR are only a few milliamps. You can use very fine wire for this (but less than 20AWG gets harder to handle.) The AC power to the PID is also very low current (less than 5W/240V = 21 mA.) So, you can use fine wire for the AC to the PID also, as long as you put in the fuses I showed. Your 12 VDC power supply will draw less than 75 W, so will draw less than 75W/240V = 313 mA, and can also use down to 20AWG wire (assuming fuses are used.) In the drawing I posted, high currents only flow in the widest lines.



Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...


So basically the only wires that need to be 10/3 are the wires going to the switch in the outlet?
 
If the OP reduced to a 4500w element, could the 12-3 wire remain?
Just a thought.
Depends on your batch size goals, 4500 is still plenty of heat for 5 gal, and sufficient but a little slower for 10 gal
 
wilserbrewer said:
If the OP reduced to a 4500w element, could the 12-3 wire remain?
Just a thought.
Depends on your batch size goals, 4500 is still plenty of heat for 5 gal, and sufficient but a little slower for 10 gal
Click to expand...

That would work.

Brew on :mug:
 
So I would not need 10/3 wire at all? Just put a 240v plug on the end instead of the 120v 20amp plug I currently have?
 
wilserbrewer said:
If the OP reduced to a 4500w element, could the 12-3 wire remain?
Just a thought.
Depends on your batch size goals, 4500 is still plenty of heat for 5 gal, and sufficient but a little slower for 10 gal
Click to expand...


So I would not need 10/3 wire at all? Just put a 240v plug on the end instead of the 120v 20amp plug I currently have?
 
I thought about doing the same thing since I already had a 12 gauge line ran to the 120 outlet, but 4500W at 240V is 18.75A. The max amperage for 12 gauge wire is 20 amps. That was too close for me so I ran a separate 10 gauge line.
 
Perhaps I'm lost. So if I kept all my wiring the way it is but switch out my 20amp 120v plugs to say a 240v dryer plug and outlet then install a 30amp gfi outlet/breaker, I could run a 4500 watt element??
 
wilserbrewer said:
Do you wear a belt and suspenders?

J/k, we all have our own comfort level. Afaik, close is fine, exceeding is not. Me have circuit breaker mon no worry.
:)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I hear ya, and I thought about it. I am not an electrician and I searched for answers since I seemed to remember that the "common" load ratings for wire are not the ratings for continuous use. Continuous use from what I gathered is anything over 3 hours. I have done 3 hour boils before on my barleywine. So to play it safe, I put on the belt and suspenders, and used the 80% rule. :D
 
jcs401 said:
Perhaps I'm lost. So if I kept all my wiring the way it is but switch out my 20amp 120v plugs to say a 240v dryer plug and outlet then install a 30amp gfi outlet/breaker, I could run a 4500 watt element??
Click to expand...

You still need to change from single pole switches to double pole switches, or you won't actually be able to turn the system full off (remove voltage downstream of the switches.)

Brew on :mug:
 
laredo7mm said:
I thought about doing the same thing since I already had a 12 gauge line ran to the 120 outlet, but 4500W at 240V is 18.75A. The max amperage for 12 gauge wire is 20 amps. That was too close for me so I ran a separate 10 gauge line.
Click to expand...
I think the 20A limit is for wires embedded in walls and such. For cords, UL says 12AWG is good up to 25A, if only two conductors carry current (for runs less than 50'.) A 240V system without neutral meets the two current carrying conductor restriction.

Brew on :mug:
 
So looking over everything, it looks like the cost would be pretty great in price to do and switch all this over. I am wondering, I have a 2000watt element and a 1500 watt element. As stated the 2000 and or 1500 watt alone neither one was enough to get a rolling boil on say a 6 gallon batch. So my thought here; rather than switch all switches and outlets and cords on the pid controller and having to add a 220 outlet, if I used my 2000 watt element on a single pole 20amp breaker into a duel outlet gfci 20 amp plug for my mashing/recirculating, could I then when time to boil plug my 1500 watt element hot rod into a separate 15amp circuit?? This would be a total of 3500 watts come boil time, would this be enough for a good solid boil?
 
Yes, 3500w will be adequate for a 6 - 6.5 gallon boil, perhaps even more with a little patience.

Huge difference between 2000 and 3500 IME, like finding second gear lol
 
So can I wire a 110v 20amp two receptacle gfci to a single pole 20amp breaker? Or does it need to be 20amp two pole 220v?
 

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