Strong Alcohol Flavor In First Five Batches

Hello all, first time poster and new brewer here. I've got 5 batches under my belt; 1 box kit, 3 extract and 1 mini-mash. All of them had the same off flavor that I can best describe as a strong alcohol flavor. The flavor hits you up front hard, especially if you take a gulp rather than a sip. If I sift through it I can detect the flavors of whatever beer I brewed that time but it still gets largely masked by this dominating off flavor. It then leaves a strong lingering aftertaste in my mouth.

A quick google search suggested that fermentation temperature could produce this off flavor. Being that I started brewing in the middle of summer in the middle of a desert, I thought that must be my problem. I fitted an external thermostat to an old kegerator that I'm currently not using and now ferment my ales at 67 degrees. I was super excited to try my first beer like this thinking for sure my problem was solved. It was not.

I decided to take one of my oatmeal stouts into my LHBS to let him have a go at it. Of course he had many critiques for my beer but as for the "off flavor" he suggested it was more of an issue of the beer not being as "crisp" and "refined" as it should be and that it probably was due to brewing with extract rather than all grain.

Anyway, my general brew is 1 week in the primary, 1 week in the secondary and 2 weeks in the bottle for priming. I use a wort chiller to chill in under 15 minutes and use a yeast starter. The LHBS owner said my sanitation is fine and that he didn't detect any infection.

Any thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated as I'm still very new to this whole thing.

What water are you using? What yeast and what are the gravities?

A quick google search suggested that fermentation temperature could produce this off flavor. Being that I started brewing in the middle of summer in the middle of a desert, I thought that must be my problem. I fitted an external thermostat to an old kegerator that I'm currently not using and now ferment my ales at 67 degrees. @ 67*F ambient your beer temperature can easily be 5*F to 8*F higher. I typically shoot for 60*F to 65*F beer temp. depending on yeast strain


Anyway, my general brew is 1 week in the primary, 1 week in the secondary and 2 weeks in the bottle for priming. Try the above and I would suggest 3 week in the primary, 0 week in the secondary unless adding fruit or dry-hopping and 3 weeks in the bottle for priming.

67 is still a bit high. If you're measuring the ambient temperature in the kegerator, you're probably actually fermenting at 72+ during the most active, ester-forming phase of fermentation. If you're taping your temperature probe to the side of the fermenter and insulating it from the ambient air, you're probably still fermenting around 70+ in the middle of the beer's thermal mass. Try setting the thermostat to 60-62 next time and insulating your probe to the side of the fermenter or using a thermowell if you're not doing one of those things.

First, don't listen to your LHBS guy. He either doesn't know what he's talking about, or he knows that old extract will give weird, stale flavors, and is knowingly selling you old extract.

Secondly, as others have said, make sure you're trying to measure the temperature of the beer. Ambient temps can be quite a bit higher. Check out this thread for examples of that:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=553916

Third, are you sure it's not a solventy or spicy flavor? This can be due to any number of factors. List off the recipes of the most problematic, OG, FG, amount of yeast pitched, etc. But also give us a run-down of your cleaning and sanitizing process and what cleaning agents you're using. Also, are you using regular tap water, yet not treating it with campden tablets?

Fourth, as mentioned, you really don't need to be doing the secondary for most ales. If your LHBS guy told you that, all the more reason to ignore his advice, and stick to HBT for future advice. You can do the safe thing like the one who posted above and do 3 weeks primary, then 3 weeks bottle-conditioning, but you could also likely get away with 2 weeks primary.

Fifth, try giving your beer a cold crash, and if you can get ahold of it, some gelatin as well. Just google that, and you'll find good techniques for adding the gelatin. But since you have converted the old kegerator anyways, you might as well at least bring your beer down to near-freezing temps for a few days before bottling it. The problem could just be that you're not used to the amount of suspended yeast that comes with homebrew, mixed with the esters and fusels that you got from your fermentation temps.

Lastly (I know this became a long response, sorry), I would personally not move to all-grain until you can brew up a good extract beer. There's something wrong with your process here, and it will only persist after you spend all the money to upgrade to all-grain, which will be quite disheartening I would imagine. If you are only using extracts at this point, I would suggest to use all light dry extract (light DME), and then add some specialty grains to get the color and flavor. This will be a easy, cheap way to start messing with grains, and give you time to fix your process before jumping into all-grain. There are plenty of great recipes on here, or you can just google your favorite beer and then add on to that "extract clone."

Thanks for all the responses. Several of you had further questions for me so let me try to answer those. Admittedly, my record keeping is just about non-existent and I know I should improve that if I intend to pursue this hobby.

- For my yeast, I've used Wyeast 1084 irish ale twice and Wyeast 1007 german ale once. Sadly, I cannot recall the other two batches.
- For my water it has always been bottled spring water.
- As per my bad record keeping the gravities have all gone by the way side but I do know that all the beers were between 4.6% and 5.2% ABV.
- For sanitation I use 5 star starsan. I mixed it with distilled water and I check its PH each time before using it. I'm fairly confident that my sanitation practices are up to par.
- For cleaning I use 5 star PBW (I think that is its name). I must confess that I don't get the sense that everything is completely clean but I use PBW by its printed instructions. I think there is room for improvement here but I'm not sure what product or procedure to use.
- For my external thermostat, the probe is just hanging in the middle of the kegerator and measuring its ambient air temp.
- There was a mention of a cold crash and a gelatin. I do not currently use either of those and am not sure what they even are to be honest

I think that answers most of the questions you guys had. One last note I forgot to mention the first time around, I poured little tasters at one week and two weeks (when moving from primary to secondary and just before bottling), and in all cases the off flavor was already present at the one week mark.

So going forward it seems lowering the temperature in the kegerator even further is the first place to start. And Secondly I'll stop using a secondary fermentor. For argument sake, lets say its the ingredients and not my brew practices, where can I get fresh ingredients from?

Anytime I let a stranger taste something I made, whether it is food or beverage, I don't tell them what's in it or what it's made from. Especially for beer, I find if you tell someone that you use extract, they will invariably have some preconceived notions that affect their judgement. I think this because a few times, when revealing things after the tasting, I have more than once gotten "I would never have guessed this was an extract beer!"

Midehv said:

Thanks for all the responses. Several of you had further questions for me so let me try to answer those. Admittedly, my record keeping is just about non-existent and I know I should improve that if I intend to pursue this hobby.

- For my yeast, I've used Wyeast 1084 irish ale twice and Wyeast 1007 german ale once. Sadly, I cannot recall the other two batches.
- For my water it has always been bottled spring water.
- As per my bad record keeping the gravities have all gone by the way side but I do know that all the beers were between 4.6% and 5.2% ABV.
- For sanitation I use 5 star starsan. I mixed it with distilled water and I check its PH each time before using it. I'm fairly confident that my sanitation practices are up to par.
- For cleaning I use 5 star PBW (I think that is its name). I must confess that I don't get the sense that everything is completely clean but I use PBW by its printed instructions. I think there is room for improvement here but I'm not sure what product or procedure to use.
- For my external thermostat, the probe is just hanging in the middle of the kegerator and measuring its ambient air temp.
- There was a mention of a cold crash and a gelatin. I do not currently use either of those and am not sure what they even are to be honest

I think that answers most of the questions you guys had. One last note I forgot to mention the first time around, I poured little tasters at one week and two weeks (when moving from primary to secondary and just before bottling), and in all cases the off flavor was already present at the one week mark.

So going forward it seems lowering the temperature in the kegerator even further is the first place to start. And Secondly I'll stop using a secondary fermentor. For argument sake, lets say its the ingredients and not my brew practices, where can I get fresh ingredients from?

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Gonna try to address all of this at once, and after drinking several beers...

Regarding @mblanks2 - three weeks primary and three weeks bottle is probably solid advice. My personal MO is two weeks primary and anywhere from one to two weeks in the bottle depending on gravity and ABV (the stronger beers take a little more time to carb up in my limited experience).

Regarding @joshesmusica - Here's my brewing history... I did one mini-mash/extract kit, went all grain on my next batch, haven't looked back since. Personally, I believe if you can boil water, you can brew all grain. Sure it's a bit more complicated (water mods, mashing profiles, etc.), but it's well worth it.

Now to the really important stuff, based on what I read here...

1. "My water has always been bottled spring water." Not cool. I'm speaking from experience. My first three batches were brewed with bottled spring water. Read John Palmer's book, Water for inspiration and a decent understanding. Next, get the brewer's water analysis by Ward Labs ($42). Then download Martin Brungard's Bru'n Water spreadsheet. Read the book and follow the instructions and you'll increase the quality of your brew in no time.

2. "As per my bad record keeping..."
Make sure you're keeping meticulous notes. If you "accidentally" brew a mind-blowing beer, you'll be sorry if you can't recreate it. Your notes should include a few basic things - recipe (with percentages by weight), original gravity, final gravity, fermentation temp, yield, and ABV. Those are just some basics. Design your log to suit your own personal needs.

3. Brew what you want. I've done nine batches by myself, all of those have been all grain. Frankly, I think my beers are pretty damn tasty. Don't let anyone tell you to brew X-number of beers before you make the move to all grain. It's not as complicated as you might think. It's just a few more steps to be taken.

Good luck!

Nothing wrong with bottled spring water for makin beer, a few mineral additions if needed will make it even better but even as is can make great beer.
Treated tap water can make good beer as well

If you could put a name or taste to your off flavour what would it be?

By chance are your beers over or heavily Carbonated?

Never used 1084, but I know the 1007 you used is a German strain and it works best around 60-62, so that might be why THAT BATCH turned out a little rough. I used 1007 for an Oktobefest/ale that turned out awesome which I proudly served at a wedding. Good luck in your future batches!

Midehv said:

Thanks for all the responses. Several of you had further questions for me so let me try to answer those. Admittedly, my record keeping is just about non-existent and I know I should improve that if I intend to pursue this hobby.

- For my yeast, I've used Wyeast 1084 irish ale twice and Wyeast 1007 german ale once. Sadly, I cannot recall the other two batches.
- For my water it has always been bottled spring water.
- As per my bad record keeping the gravities have all gone by the way side but I do know that all the beers were between 4.6% and 5.2% ABV.
- For sanitation I use 5 star starsan. I mixed it with distilled water and I check its PH each time before using it. I'm fairly confident that my sanitation practices are up to par.
- For cleaning I use 5 star PBW (I think that is its name). I must confess that I don't get the sense that everything is completely clean but I use PBW by its printed instructions. I think there is room for improvement here but I'm not sure what product or procedure to use.
- For my external thermostat, the probe is just hanging in the middle of the kegerator and measuring its ambient air temp.
- There was a mention of a cold crash and a gelatin. I do not currently use either of those and am not sure what they even are to be honest

I think that answers most of the questions you guys had. One last note I forgot to mention the first time around, I poured little tasters at one week and two weeks (when moving from primary to secondary and just before bottling), and in all cases the off flavor was already present at the one week mark.

So going forward it seems lowering the temperature in the kegerator even further is the first place to start. And Secondly I'll stop using a secondary fermentor. For argument sake, lets say its the ingredients and not my brew practices, where can I get fresh ingredients from?

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The highlighted sentence jumps out at me as the root cause. You have an external thermostat to control your kegerator? Use it to your advantage and control the temperature of the fermenting beer, not the air temp. Tape the probe to the fermenter, tape a little insulation over the probe so it will detect the temperature of the fermening beer, and let the kegerator make your beer better. It only needs controlling during the first 3 to 5 days and then you take it out of the kegerator to warm up and finish.

RM-MN said:

The highlighted sentence jumps out at me as the root cause. You have an external thermostat to control your kegerator? Use it to your advantage and control the temperature of the fermenting beer, not the air temp. Tape the probe to the fermenter, tape a little insulation over the probe so it will detect the temperature of the fermening beer, and let the kegerator make your beer better. It only needs controlling during the first 3 to 5 days and then you take it out of the kegerator to warm up and finish.

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Exactly.

Sorry guys but giving the guy advice to start looking into his water and going beyond simple brewing stuff is not good advice at this point.

He's admitted to being new, having very little experience, having some missing pieces in the brewing knowledge, and not being a meticulous person. Telling him to be more meticulous and to move to all grain and to start looking into treating his water and all of that superfluous stuff isn't going to help a guy that doesn't have fermentation techniques down.

OP, one really cool trick is if you can find some bubble wrap, and tape the temp prove to the fermentor, then tape the bubble wrap over that. This will help you regulate the temperature of the beer a little better. But even then, I would still aim for the lower end of the optimum temperature range for each yeast.

Especially since you're saying it's present at 1 week in, then I'm betting it's fusel alcohols, which are always present, but are way over the taste threshold the higher you ferment.

Secondly, since you have the refrigeration capacity, after about 5-7 days of fermentation (when you see visible signs that the fermentation is starting to slow down, let the temperature raise up to about 70F. Then after two weeks of total fermentation, start dropping the temperature of the refrigerator down to near freezing. You can do it quickly, or you can do it gradually over a couple of days. Either way works fine. Once at near-freezing temps, leave it for another few days. This will help clear it out, which should help make the flavors more crisp and rounded. That's all a cold crash is. You don't have to really worry about gelatin for now, although it's incredibly easy, and like I said, you can just search youtube for good instructional videos.

Temp control I found is one of more important keys to fermentation. Remember to tape the probe to the fermenter below the wort level, you want to measure the temp of the wort not the temp of CO2 in the fermenter. After you know that fermentation is complete allow a few more days to sit for the yeast to clean-up after themselves this will help improve the taste of your brew. Then cold crash as mentioned to help the beer to clear and settle the trub for bottling. IMHO

Alright fellas, there's been a lot of good info here and I've tried to absorb all of it. Thank you for that. I've come to a conclusion for my next brew.

I will use the thermostat's probe to measure the beer temp and not the ambient air temperature. I will also drop it by about 5 degrees down to 62F instead of 67F. In my minimal reading thus far, I realize that too low of a temp can make off flavors as well but I'm almost hoping for a discernible difference so I can learn from it. I'll be trying the cold crash since I'm already set up to be able to do it so why not right? I will also be using the primary fermantor only and testing my patience by allowing it to go 3 weeks. And finally, I will buy some sort of log book and log every detail of the brew.

A small part of me can't shake the thought of maybe it's the source of my ingredients that's the problem and not my brew practices. But then I thought back to high school science where an experiment had a control and a variable. If I change the source of my ingredients AND change my brew practice at the same time, and then all of the sudden the beer turns out great, I won't know which one was the culprit. So I'll buy the same stuff I have been and go from there. I'll post there results here (in due time of course).

And lastly, some questions were asked and since you took time out of your day to ask, I'd feel it rude not to answer. Bellybuster asked to name or describe the off flavor. As said before, my best description is it tastes strong in alcohol. Like drinking a 10% ABV but all mine have been around 5%. It leaves you with that "dry" feeling like drinking and extra dry martini. One of my friends even noted that he actually enjoyed that aspect of my beer. I also had one person describe it as a "flour" taste. Not flower like hops but flour like baking. And again, my LHBS owner stated that it isn't so much of an off flavor, but that its simply the result of an unrefined and not "crisp" beer. I'm not sure what else to say about it other than its dominating. Almost all my beers have tasted relatively the same because of this off flavor. When I swish the beer around my palate I can taste the profile of the beer I was trying to brew but I have to work to find it. To someone mindlessly drinking my beers though, they would all be similar. It was also asked if my beers were over carbed. According to the LHBS owner; no. If anything they are under carbed but he wasn't concerned with that right now and suggested we tackle that later.

Thanks again.

Midehv said:

And again, my LHBS owner stated that it isn't so much of an off flavor, but that its simply the result of an unrefined and not "crisp" beer.

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And again, this proves you can't trust this person's advice. Your beer drinking buddy could point out what the off flavor is, why couldn't a homebrew shop owner? Unrefined and not crisp are not descriptors of off-flavors, unless he's meaning that it could have used some aging and use more carbonation. But to not be able to notice a strong alcohol taste, and describe it as that, shows he's not exactly the most knowledgeable guy about homebrew.

joshesmusica said:

And again, this proves you can't trust this person's advice. Your beer drinking buddy could point out what the off flavor is, why couldn't a homebrew shop owner? Unrefined and not crisp are not descriptors of off-flavors, unless he's meaning that it could have used some aging and use more carbonation. But to not be able to notice a strong alcohol taste, and describe it as that, shows he's not exactly the most knowledgeable guy about homebrew.

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That's a good observation but the main job of the shop owner is to make money with the secondary objective is to maintain inventory that brewers want. Giving advice comes after the first 2 and just because someone owns a brew shop doesn't mean they are a BJCP certified judge of beer.

RM-MN said:

That's a good observation but the main job of the shop owner is to make money with the secondary objective is to maintain inventory that brewers want. Giving advice comes after the first 2 and just because someone owns a brew shop doesn't mean they are a BJCP certified judge of beer.

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I agree. But it's just like someone who owns a phone repair store. He or she can't expect that customers aren't going to come in and ask questions that pertain to their specialty shop. I'm no bjcp judge either, but I can tell someone "this beer has a very strong taste of alcohol." Of course I could take that even further and give advice on how to fix that problem as well.
My point isn't to stop going there, though. My LHBS guys often give slightly off advice, but they're the cheapest in the city. So I just go there for my product, and go here for the advice! Win-win-win, or something like that.

Midehv said:

Thanks for all the responses. Several of you had further questions for me so let me try to answer those. Admittedly, my record keeping is just about non-existent and I know I should improve that if I intend to pursue this hobby.

Click to expand...

Unless you have an eidetic memory, taking good notes on each batch is a very important part of improving your brewing processes and the resulting beer. I constantly look back at my notes to repeat successful brews, avoid previous mistakes, and diagnose problems I may encounter.

Here are some good templates to start with to help record information on each of your batches. Record details on each ingredient, temps, yeast, process steps, OG, FG, etc... It will pay off down the road.

- For my yeast, I've used Wyeast 1084 irish ale twice and Wyeast 1007 german ale once. Sadly, I cannot recall the other two batches.
- For my water it has always been bottled spring water.

Click to expand...

Your target temp (67f) was good for the yeast you chose. But as others have said, the location of your probe was measuring ambient temp and not the temp of your wort. Tape the probe to the side of your fermenter and cover it. This may actually be the root of the off flavor your experiencing.

Bottled spring water is great base for brewing beer. Some will talk about modifying water chemistry but don't get wrapped up in that just yet. Use the same water for each batch so you have a baseline and eliminate at least one of the many variables in your brew day.

- As per my bad record keeping the gravities have all gone by the way side but I do know that all the beers were between 4.6% and 5.2% ABV.

Click to expand...

See above...

- For sanitation I use 5 star starsan. I mixed it with distilled water and I check its PH each time before using it. I'm fairly confident that my sanitation practices are up to par.

Click to expand...

Perfect!

- For cleaning I use 5 star PBW (I think that is its name). I must confess that I don't get the sense that everything is completely clean but I use PBW by its printed instructions. I think there is room for improvement here but I'm not sure what product or procedure to use.

Click to expand...

PBW is a great cleaner when used properly. Keeping the water temp high for both cleaning and rinsing is important. Frankly, PBW is a bit overkill for cleaning pots and other utensils. But is good for use in places where you can't get to with a scrub pad or brush (i.e.; valves, tubing, carboy, etc...). Actually, I didn't start using PBW until I started kegging for cleanng beer lines and kegs.[/quote]

- For my external thermostat, the probe is just hanging in the middle of the kegerator and measuring its ambient air temp.

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See above.

- There was a mention of a cold crash and a gelatin. I do not currently use either of those and am not sure what they even are to be honest

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These methods do not affect the taste of your beer. Only the aesthetics/clarity of the end product. Like water chemistry, I would not get wrapped up in these until you're comfortable with your base process. FYI - I've never used gelatin and only sparingly used cold crashing.

I think that answers most of the questions you guys had. One last note I forgot to mention the first time around, I poured little tasters at one week and two weeks (when moving from primary to secondary and just before bottling), and in all cases the off flavor was already present at the one week mark.

Click to expand...

If fermentation temp is in fact the root of the off flavors your are experiencing, those off flavors will be formed during the height of yeast activity. So no surprise they are being detected at the week one taster.[/quote]

So going forward it seems lowering the temperature in the kegerator even further is the first place to start. And Secondly I'll stop using a secondary fermentor. For argument sake, lets say its the ingredients and not my brew practices, where can I get fresh ingredients from?

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Agree. Start with the temp control of the wort/fermenter itself.
As for fresh ingredients, if no alternative to the LHBS you're currently using, the internet is your friend. I'll let others comment on which sites. With the exception of hops, I normally buy my ingredients locally.

Welcome to the hobby!

Just updating my thread with results. I brewed an oatmeal stout utilizing some of the tips here. I taped the probe for my thermostat to the bucket and insulated it with bubble wrap. I dropped the temp down to 62 degrees and I gave it a cold crash when it was done. I let it ferment for a full three weeks in the primary. I just bottled and while doing so I poured myself a taster. Let me tell you, It tasted pretty damn good! The strong alcohol flavor is gone and the dry after taste is gone too. All I could taste were the flavors of my delicious beer. Of course I'll have to wait another three weeks to taste the finished product but if my taster is any indication, this beer should be pretty damn good.

If any other noobs out there like me are reading, I now know just how important fermentation temperature is. I thought I was doing good enough by throwing it in an old fridge and using an external electronic thermostat to control the ambient air temperature in the fridge. Nope. Not good enough. Gotta control the wort temperature. I'll post one final update once I have the finished product but I think I've solved my problems. Thanks for the help.

but if my taster is any indication, this beer should be pretty damn good.

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It will be. I find that if my sample is good the finished product is even better. Congratulations!!

Midehv said:

Just updating my thread with results. I brewed an oatmeal stout utilizing some of the tips here. I taped the probe for my thermostat to the bucket and insulated it with bubble wrap. I dropped the temp down to 62 degrees and I gave it a cold crash when it was done. I let it ferment for a full three weeks in the primary. I just bottled and while doing so I poured myself a taster. Let me tell you, It tasted pretty damn good! The strong alcohol flavor is gone and the dry after taste is gone too. All I could taste were the flavors of my delicious beer. Of course I'll have to wait another three weeks to taste the finished product but if my taster is any indication, this beer should be pretty damn good.

If any other noobs out there like me are reading, I now know just how important fermentation temperature is. I thought I was doing good enough by throwing it in an old fridge and using an external electronic thermostat to control the ambient air temperature in the fridge. Nope. Not good enough. Gotta control the wort temperature. I'll post one final update once I have the finished product but I think I've solved my problems. Thanks for the help.

Click to expand...

Try really hard not to drink all of this batch too soon. I think it will become a better beer in 6 months and way better in a year.

Midehv said:

Just updating my thread with results. I brewed an oatmeal stout utilizing some of the tips here. I taped the probe for my thermostat to the bucket and insulated it with bubble wrap. I dropped the temp down to 62 degrees and I gave it a cold crash when it was done. I let it ferment for a full three weeks in the primary. I just bottled and while doing so I poured myself a taster. Let me tell you, It tasted pretty damn good! The strong alcohol flavor is gone and the dry after taste is gone too. All I could taste were the flavors of my delicious beer. Of course I'll have to wait another three weeks to taste the finished product but if my taster is any indication, this beer should be pretty damn good.

If any other noobs out there like me are reading, I now know just how important fermentation temperature is. I thought I was doing good enough by throwing it in an old fridge and using an external electronic thermostat to control the ambient air temperature in the fridge. Nope. Not good enough. Gotta control the wort temperature. I'll post one final update once I have the finished product but I think I've solved my problems. Thanks for the help.

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Congrats on solving your problems. Everyone here is so helpful and as a noob if you listen your brews will only improve.

now brew more.


I was very lucky because I started brewing in the winter so my first brews the fermented in my basement at a great temp, so they turned out very good. By the time the weather started to warm up I knew about proper fermentation temps and built a fermentation chamber.

Congrats also on the promising batch.

One thing you might find helpful in the future is to eliminate bad recipes as the source of a bad beer. I quite often select from this list of award winning recipes, and so far they've all turned out great. Doing so allowed be focus on improving various parts of my process rather than worrying if I started with a bad recipe:

http://www.alternativecommutepueblo.com/2011/10/ahanhc-gold-medal-winning-recipes-for.html