Why does my LHBS make me feel like a noob?

Called my LHBS to ask some advice about my spiced holiday ale I have brewing. During the conversation my LHBS tells me in passing to leave the beer in primary for 2 weeks and bottle.
I mention I always do 3 weeks, as I have learned from HBT.
The guy gets scientific with me and snotty. Throwing out big words about how after 2 weeks yeast gets weird and starts leaving off flavors.
I tell him I do 3 weeks and have not had an issue.
I got a "whatever it's your beer, you called me for advice".
Full disclosure, I value my LHBS advise for flavor profiles and yeast strains and tweeking recipe.
However I have made atleast 6 brews using the 3 week primary, 2 week bottle and have not been disappointed.
I won't even go until the debate about my using a vacuum pump to siphon and bottle instead of a bottling bucket.

So why is it that you folks on HBT preach the longer primary, but both of my 2 different LHBS give different advice.

I find the info I have received on HBT incredibly valuable, so I don't know why my LHBS or so by the book (Brewers best instruction book that is).
Any idea ?

Some dudes have a process that works for them, and they think it will work for everyone else. Also brewing is the type of craft that really attracts "know it all" types. Don't give it a second thought.

From what I gathered here(still have tons to learn).We used to do shorter primarys because that's what the macro breweries do.The shear weight of wort in the mega vessels would crush and kill the yeast after it settled giving off flavors.It has since been debunked in homebrew as our little setups would never crush the yeast.Longer primaries have since been deemed ok....Feel free for anyone to correct me,but Ive read here that is the reason

I give advice for a living and can never understand when folks hire me to counsel them and then want to argue with me. They are free to ignore my advice, of course, but there's no need to argue about it. .

I'm still a total brewginner at this whole thing, but 3 weeks on the trub has never been mentioned anywhere I've seen as being "out-of-whack." If your beer tastes good, and you like it, you keep doin' you.

Sounds like you should limit your exposure to them to purchases and yeast advice only!

I don't believe there is any one arbitrary time period for a beer to ferment.

Once it's done fermenting I keg it and carbonate it. usually that is around the 2 week mark. If it takes longer, I wait longer.

Last APA, was kegged in 12 days.

Current lager will be kegged most likely at day 15.

There is no one right way. Decide for yourself what is most optimal for any given beer you make.

There may not be a wrong way, but there may be a better way.

With that said though, his process may be different such that he ends up with better beer at 2 weeks than 3. Your process may be better at 3 than 2.

IMHO if your process is extremely clean, you pitch at the right temp, manage fermentation temperatures, and pitch correctly, 2 weeks is more than enough time for an ale in a wide range of gravities. If you let it go another week the difference is going to be there, but probably too subtle for you to notice.

You can transfer more quickly IF the beer is done. For experience homebrewers who control fermentation temp properly (as in the temp of the beer, not the air), pitch a proper amount of yeast, and oxygenate properly (few homebrewers actually hit that trifecta), then you can have beer ready as soon as the pros do. Otherwise, things can take a little longer. It ultimately depends on the beer. I reject any sort of hard timeline for when a beer is done. Sometimes it's fast (my house Mild is often ready to package after 4 days, and if I kegged and force carbed I could have grain to glass in less than a week) and sometimes it's slow (my Imperial Red took 6 months to carbonate in the bottle).

Point is, if your beer is ready (stable gravity, no intermediaries left) go ahead and bottle/keg it. If it's not ready, leave it longer. Your LHBS isn't WRONG per say, but neither is HBT. The 3-4 weeks thing is common on here because it usually won't HURT anything, and for newer brewers it's helpful to leave it on that long because the beers are usually underpitched, underaerated, and not controlled fermentation temp.

When someone gives their closely-held "opinions," I ask them to explain. Not to be testy, but because I really want to hear them make their case. If someone were to tell me that a 3-week fermentation is too long, due to "yeast getting weird," I'd like to hear exactly why that happens, to explain the science behind it.

All that said, here's why there is no hard-and-fast rule for primary times: the beer is done fermenting when it's done. There is no one-size-fits-all length of time. The yeast strain, ferm temps, OG, yeast viability, etc., all affect the time it takes to complete. When the gravity stays the same 3 days in a row, then it is finished and ready to package.

Sounds like your LHBS guy is kind of a d1ck.

2 weeks, 3 week... Doesn't matter. What matters is when it's done fermenting. That could easily be 3 days to 4 weeks depending on health of yeast, OG of wort, pitch rate, aeration, and fermenting temp.

Sometimes people leave their beer on the yeast longer because the yeast can sometimes metabolize some of the off-flavors produced during fermentation. The more healthy your fermentation (pitch rate, aeration, nutrients, temp control), the less you have to worry about off-flavors and trying to "clean them up" post-fermentation.

When I started brewing, I was doing 2 weeks primary, 2 weeks secondary, & 4 weeks in the bottle. That's what I felt like gave me the best beer. Now I'm grain-to-glass for most beers in 3 or 4 weeks and it still includes bottle carbing.

I keg whenever the fermentation is done and I have an open keg. That might be 7 days, that might be 3 weeks. Depends on the style, depends on the availability of a keg for me.

Don't worry about it. 3 weeks is fine.

Sounds like the guy at your LHBS is just very opinionated. The time required to ferment differs from batch to batch. It's done when it's done. My higher OG beers just take longer. If I'm making a mild, I can have it in the keg in 7-10 days.

The best advice is to do what you know and what has always worked best in the past, dont be afraid to experiment a little and apply common sense. I just really dont like absolutes as everything has stipulations. Even from batch to batch of the same beer.

First 4 years brewing, I did 4 weeks primary, no secondary, 4 weeks bottle conditioning. I check FG but only to satisfy my idle curiosity. Recently, I began kegging. I have also shortened up my cycle from 4 weeks to 3. I have noticed no real difference in the final product, except a more gentle carb which I attribute to force carbing using the "set and forget" method.

Everybody has their own opinion, here's mine. In the beginning, home brewers were extremely limited in the yeast strains available. I suspect a lot of home brewers were using baker's yeast, which is cultured to create a great deal of CO2 to make bread rise, and then die in the oven. It is possible (through no emperical evidence whatsoever) that the off flavors from dead yeast ( Autolysis) is more prevelant in bread cultures than in the strains specifically cultured for beer, which we are using today.

sounds like the typical out-of-date LHBS advice that plagues homebrewers everywhere. Though nto as bad as kit instructions, I would sooner trust any some-what knowledgeable person here than anyone working at the LHBS

2 weeks?

3 Weeks?

I didn't know yeast could read a calendar...

Please refrain from statements like HBT preaches 3 week primaries, because we don't and we shouldn't. Fermentation is done when its done, be it 3 days or 3 months, depending on the wort and yeast and temp and other factors. Its not going to get 'doner' leaving it in there any longer. If your personal process and comfort level likes 3 weeks as the norm, good for you and keep at it. Gaining a comfortable, repeatable process is important. But don't preach 3 weeks as some sort of necessity.

In ten batches, I haven't gone over 2 weeks in primary. Three went for 7 days. Haven't gone over a 1.07 OG though, and I make some seriously cloudy beer. Perhaps I could push for clearer beer, but I just want tasty beer at this point.

I worry about autolysis as much as I worry about HSA.

When I started brewing 4 years ago there was a definite "leave it on the yeast for 3-4 weeks so that the yeast can clean up off flavors" trend. They were going against the previous "get it off the yeast or you will have autolysis flavors" trend. I get lazy sometimes and leave my primary on the yeast for 4+ weeks. I have not noticed any difference (except maybe in very hoppy recipes) between right after reaching FG or a month or longer.

Recently there has been more of, reach final gravity, wait a couple more days then make a decision on whether the beer will benefit any from longer time on the yeast. I is generally accepted that light and hoppy beers could and maybe should be packaged soon and that high gravity or maltier beers benefit from some aging prior to packaging.

Ideas change with new knowledge, ingredients, techniques, technology. Early in the homebrewing trend most of the knowledge about brewing beer came from commercial brewing. There are big differences due to the scale and object. Huge amounts of beer, using the same yeast and looking for extreme consistency are a lot different than brewing 5-10 gallons, a different beer each batch.

Some people, maybe including your LHBS, get comfortable with what their process and knowledge produces and stick with that instead of progressing. There is nothing wrong with that, it works. Is it always the best? Not necessarily.

1977Brewer said:

In ten batches, I haven't gone over 2 weeks in primary. Three went for 7 days. Haven't gone over a 1.07 OG though, and I make some seriously cloudy beer. Perhaps I could push for clearer beer, but I just want tasty beer at this point.

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I guess you are not preaching that 2 weeks is the best...

As far as your cloudy beer. Try something different. Maybe let one go for 3 weeks, try a cold crash and/or a clearing agent. That should make your beer more clear. Then maybe you can compare that to a cloudy beer to see if there was any significant change in the taste of the beer.

Unless someone is having problems that require big changes, I always advise small steps. Make a small change, see if the results are in the direction you want then make more changes in that direction. If someone makes drastic changes they might substitute a new problem for the original one.

4+ years in and I am still experimenting. Then again a couple of my first beers (extract with steeping grain kits) rank among the best beers I have made.

kh54s10 said:

I guess you are not preaching that 2 weeks is the best...



As far as your cloudy beer. Try something different. Maybe let one go for 3 weeks, try a cold crash and/or a clearing agent. That should make your beer more clear. Then maybe you can compare that to a cloudy beer to see if there was any significant change in the taste of the beer.



Unless someone is having problems that require big changes, I always advise small steps. Make a small change, see if the results are in the direction you want then make more changes in that direction. If someone makes drastic changes they might substitute a new problem for the original one.



4+ years in and I am still experimenting. Then again a couple of my first beers (extract with steeping grain kits) rank among the best beers I have made.

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That's where I am now. Tried whirlfloc, lost at least a gallon to trub, and I won't sacrifice volume over clarity, so I may try gelatin or a longer primary. No temp control yet so cold crashing is a bust.

m00ps said:

sounds like the typical out-of-date LHBS advice that plagues homebrewers everywhere. Though nto (sic) as bad as kit instructions, I would sooner trust any some-what knowledgeable person here than anyone working at the LHBS

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Well, that's quite a blanket statement. I agree, many homebrewers (both LHBS employees and HBT members alike) offer outdated or misinformed advice. However, there are lots of people in the homebrew industry and on HBT that actually know what they are talking about. For example, look at Yooper, Qhrumpf, Melana, etc. on HBT. I run a LHBS and I have a professional brewing education from Siebel. Don't succumb to making assumptions about a big group of people just because you had a bad experience.

Weezy said:

Its not going to get 'doner' leaving it in there any longer.

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True, but it is going to mature and not taste so hot and young if you give it a few weeks to relax instead of rushing it into the bottle after 3-7 days of fermentation.

sudbuddy said:

True, but it is going to mature and not taste so hot and young if you give it a few weeks to relax instead of rushing it into the bottle after 3-7 days of fermentation.

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No disrespect but this is an ignorant statement. You're talking about conditioning, not fermentation. If you want to condition on your yeast cake, fine. Have at it if that's your process, but conditioning doesn't have to happen in primary.

All hail Weezy, master of terminology. Your post didn't say anything about conditioning, just "moving it off" after 3 days. I was merely pointing out that 3 days is not enough time to get good beer. Thanks for calling me ignorant though, I love to know where I stand with internet trolls

Pyg said:

So why is it that you folks on HBT preach the longer primary, but both of my 2 different LHBS give different advice.

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We don't.

Or rather, some people say 3 weeks. Some Say 2. Some say 1. Some say "when it's done". Last I checked, the members of HBT have yet to reach a consensus on a single damned thing.

I've a beer that's been in primary for 3 weeks, but that's only because I've been too lazy to keg it, not because I meant to leave it in there that long.

Personally, I usually shoot for ~14 days for ales, but laziness happens.

I found that the guy that runs my LHBS had a tough shell to crack as well. My guess is that the majority of his day is spent with beginners, answering the same questions over and over. It's particularly evident around Christmas when people are buying up the beginner kits for gifts.

When I first went there, I got the same crass remarks. But once he realized I knew what I was doing and brought in some of my beer as proof, he's done a 180 and really warmed up. Now he readily strikes up conversation and we can easily burn 45 minutes talking about brewing.

I wouldn't take too much offense and hopefully once you "prove" you know your stuff, your LHBS will turn a corner as well.

hunter_la5 said:

We don't.

Or rather, some people say 3 weeks. Some Say 2. Some say 1. Some say "when it's done". Last I checked, the members of HBT have yet to reach a consensus on a single damned thing.

I've a beer that's been in primary for 3 weeks, but that's only because I've been too lazy to keg it, not because I meant to leave it in there that long.

Personally, I usually shoot for ~14 days for ales, but laziness happens.

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I prupose a vote must be taken. Who agrees beer is good?!?

I usually do 2 weeks because I'm lazy and don't want to keg/bottle it unless I'm particularly low in pipeline or want it right meow.

With that said, fermentation for me is usually completed in 3-4 days. Ramped up to room temp for 2 days, then I can usually keg/bottle.

(you miss quoted. I didnt say that)

It's brutally simple....fermentation is done when fermentation is done.

Period.

Some people prefer to just primary for two weeks. Some people prefer three. Some people let it sit til they have time to get to bottling and kegging the beer. Some people go by visuals; when it clears. Some will painstakingly check specific gravities. Some will monitor pH as well. ALL are valid because all are satisfying the essential factor that fermentation is complete by then for most beers....

Just don't start telling people that 2 weeks or 3 weeks was on the back side of the stone that Moses brought down.

Pyg said:

Called my LHBS to ask some advice about my spiced holiday ale I have brewing. During the conversation my LHBS tells me in passing to leave the beer in primary for 2 weeks and bottle.
I mention I always do 3 weeks, as I have learned from HBT.
The guy gets scientific with me and snotty. Throwing out big words about how after 2 weeks yeast gets weird and starts leaving off flavors.
I tell him I do 3 weeks and have not had an issue.
I got a "whatever it's your beer, you called me for advice".
Full disclosure, I value my LHBS advise for flavor profiles and yeast strains and tweeking recipe.
However I have made atleast 6 brews using the 3 week primary, 2 week bottle and have not been disappointed.
I won't even go until the debate about my using a vacuum pump to siphon and bottle instead of a bottling bucket.

So why is it that you folks on HBT preach the longer primary, but both of my 2 different LHBS give different advice.

I find the info I have received on HBT incredibly valuable, so I don't know why my LHBS or so by the book (Brewers best instruction book that is).
Any idea ?

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You called and asked him for advice, and he gave it to you. He probably got a little pissy because you were the one asking advice, but then argued with the advice he gave you. In that case, it's probably best practice to thank him for the advice, and stick with what works for you.

sudbuddy said:

All hail Weezy, master of terminology. Your post didn't say anything about conditioning, just "moving it off" after 3 days. I was merely pointing out that 3 days is not enough time to get good beer. Thanks for calling me ignorant though, I love to know where I stand with internet trolls

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Touchy, touchy.

You can, I have, and others have as well, kegged 1.030s beers after three days. Becccaaauuusseee.....fermentation was done. Shocker.

Topics I've learned to stay clear of at my LHBS...

1) Don't mention the "No Chill" Method
2) Don't even think about mentioning that Pro Mash is no longer supported.

Either topic incenses nerd rage. No brewer knows everything, even the most respected pro brewer will tell you that.

sudbuddy said:

However, there are lots of people in the homebrew industry and on HBT that actually know what they are talking about. For example, look at Yooper, Qhrumpf, Melana, etc. on HBT.

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Appreciate the shout-out but I probably have as little clue what I'm talking about as anyone else

seefish said:

Topics I've learned to stay clear of at my LHBS...

1) Don't mention the "No Chill" Method
2) Don't even think about mentioning that Pro Mash is no longer supported.

Either topic incenses nerd rage. No brewer knows everything, even the most respected pro brewer will tell you that.

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Pretty much applies to everything in life. Anyone claiming to know everything is showing how little they actually know.

seefish said:

Topics I've learned to stay clear of at my LHBS...

1) Don't mention the "No Chill" Method
2) Don't even think about mentioning that Pro Mash is no longer supported.

Either topic incenses nerd rage. No brewer knows everything, even the most respected pro brewer will tell you that.

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Same with BIAB and crushing your grains finer. It'll damage the mill, you'll get a stuck sparge, you'll get too much grain particles in your mash and get tannins. You can't squeeze or you'll get tannins. If you have to chill asap or it won't taste good. I just think a lot of LHBS employees don't have enough modern technique knowledge, they're mostly informed from either older brewers that haven't kept up or from older books like how to brew.

hunter_la5 said:

Last I checked, the members of HBT have yet to reach a consensus on a single damned thing.

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I disagree!

balrog said:

I disagree!

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Aha!

This is where my beer bug comes into play. I watch the gravity drop until it's stable for a few days, then keg. Sometimes that's a week, sometimes more, just depends on how long it takes to get to the final gravity. I get the same thing from some of my LHBS though. There's one guy that always "KNOWs" his way is better. (for him)...

Weezy said:

Touchy, touchy.

You can, I have, and others have as well, kegged 1.030s beers after three days. Becccaaauuusseee.....fermentation was done. Shocker.

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You need to leave the beer in primary for 3 weeks to let the yeast finish!

How did it taste?

Aristotelian said:

Some dudes have a process that works for them, and they think it will work for everyone else. Also brewing is the type of craft that really attracts "know it all" types. Don't give it a second thought.

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I have never been around a hobby that attracts more "know it all types." well said. I have a hard time even brewing with people I like. Its a personal hobby and everyone enjoys their own process/ritual.

hunter_la5 said:

We don't.

Or rather, some people say 3 weeks. Some Say 2. Some say 1. Some say "when it's done". Last I checked, the members of HBT have yet to reach a consensus on a single damned thing.

I've a beer that's been in primary for 3 weeks, but that's only because I've been too lazy to keg it, not because I meant to leave it in there that long.

Personally, I usually shoot for ~14 days for ales, but laziness happens.

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HAHAHA I'm the same way. Except mine is a Christmas Porter. My original plan was 3 weeks primary (I normally do two). But then I decided, oh hell, why not give it another week. I was thinking of cold crashing it. But now it's almost 5 weeks, and the chest freezer is being used up by a beer that actually needs to ferment at around 35C. So no cold crashing for another week available. I'm still thinking of bottling it this weekend though. Who knows. Maybe I'll find something else to do.

As to the OP, I'm sure there are some really good LHBS owners/workers out there... it's just that I haven't met them yet. Early on, I wanted some Briess Golden Light liquid extract, but the LHBS screwed up their order and didn't get any in. I was planning on brewing a spring blonde ale. He said that the Briess Munich extract was pretty much the exact same thing. Nope, no, it definitely was not. That beer got it's named changed to Munich spring ale. I think it's actually like double the EBC as the golden light.

With that said, 3 weeks is definitely enough time. BUT, in a lot of average-sized ales, with the typical fermentation parameters covered, 2 weeks is perfectly adequate. So he wasn't wrong at all by suggesting that.