Just something I have noticed in the last few weeks being repeated. Recipes without Crystal malts. I only started brewing last year, but I remember seeing Crystal in most if the recipes I found. Is this a thing?
Is there a trend against crystal malts?
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Crystal is so last year! Maybe it is the season.. lighter color summer beers versus darker winter beer? I am 50/50 with my crystal use in my recipes I build.
There are more and more options these days that are not specifically called Caramel/Crystal malt but impart some of the flavor benefits...probably not available when a lot of beginner recipes were written.
Add to the the fact that a lot of IPA's have gone bone-dry without what I call balancing maltiness and other call "cloying".
I personally ut a touch, or a lot, of Special B in about 90% of my beers because I like the flavor. I add C20 to at least 50% of my beers as well. That being said,I do not brew to style...I pick a style to match the recipe (sort of).
Beernik
Well-Known Member
Over the years, I've reached the conclusion that crystal malts are the most unnecessarily used malts. I keep my usage under 8oz for 5 gallons unless I want to keep it sweet.
I see thread after thread after thread on here that leads with "My beer is too sweet" and I look at the recipe and there is a pound or more of crystal malt in it.
Don't get me wrong. Crystal malts have their time and place. But unless you specifically want to taste the sweetness they leave behind, you should use just enough to get your desired SRM and not any more.
I see thread after thread after thread on here that leads with "My beer is too sweet" and I look at the recipe and there is a pound or more of crystal malt in it.
Don't get me wrong. Crystal malts have their time and place. But unless you specifically want to taste the sweetness they leave behind, you should use just enough to get your desired SRM and not any more.
marcownz747
Certified Cicerone, YPG vet
I use caramunich in most of my brews, but I tend to stick with mostly dark german styles. I don't use much crystal in my brews outside of this area.
However, I wouldn't go so far as to call a crystal malt "unnecessary". Many (If not most) basic homebrewers do not have the setup to truly create maillard reactions in their boil (unless they are using decoction brewing or have decent BTUs, and most homebrewers I know simply don't).
Crystal malt helps provide some wonderful aromas and flavors which require higher levels of expertise or equipment, without having to resort to extract.
I've never had a problem with sweetness left behind by crystal malt. I've had astringency issues, but never sweetness issues. The sugars produced are pretty fermentable, especially if used as part of a mash with a high enough diastatic power. The biggest problem I've had related to sweetness is underhopping.
However, I wouldn't go so far as to call a crystal malt "unnecessary". Many (If not most) basic homebrewers do not have the setup to truly create maillard reactions in their boil (unless they are using decoction brewing or have decent BTUs, and most homebrewers I know simply don't).
Crystal malt helps provide some wonderful aromas and flavors which require higher levels of expertise or equipment, without having to resort to extract.
I've never had a problem with sweetness left behind by crystal malt. I've had astringency issues, but never sweetness issues. The sugars produced are pretty fermentable, especially if used as part of a mash with a high enough diastatic power. The biggest problem I've had related to sweetness is underhopping.
It really depends on the recipe. If you want color and a little sweetness crystal works, if not use minimal crystal. You can use a little crystal for color but there are a lot of other malts to explore for both taste and color.
solbes
Well-Known Member
I have at least some crystal malts in most of my recipes. Some styles I do not add any (wheat, pils, kolsch, etc but these are rather self explanatory).
I have made some SMaSH and IPA's without. Not a big fan of those actually.
Balance on amount is key. So is dialing in the proper mash temp and pitching enough viable yeast.
I have made some SMaSH and IPA's without. Not a big fan of those actually.
Balance on amount is key. So is dialing in the proper mash temp and pitching enough viable yeast.
I think you're onto something. For extract brewers, it seems like crystal malt is in EVERY single recipe, so when someone gets comfortable with all-grain recipes, they will deign to use it. I agree, to a point. It is easily overused, and sometimes overused in a great quantity.
But, in the recipe, the right amount is an awesome ingredient.
It's like salt. If a recipe is great with salt, the right amount of salt is what makes a good marinara sauce great. But too much means it's way overdone, and undrinkable. The same is true with crystal malt. In the right style in the right recipe, it's important. Say, like 12-15% in an American amber. But overdone, or in the wrong recipe, it's terrible.
But, in the recipe, the right amount is an awesome ingredient.
It's like salt. If a recipe is great with salt, the right amount of salt is what makes a good marinara sauce great. But too much means it's way overdone, and undrinkable. The same is true with crystal malt. In the right style in the right recipe, it's important. Say, like 12-15% in an American amber. But overdone, or in the wrong recipe, it's terrible.
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
I love crystal malts. They just have a time and place. Just like you don't add a ton of hops to all beers. Just have to use things where they belong. I brew a dark mild session beer with a 160ºF mash and 18% c60 and 6% chocolate malt. That almost doesn't have enough body.
I have also brewed DIPA with NO crystal malts or anything other than base malt. It turned out fantastic. So, in conclusion: "it depends."
I have also brewed DIPA with NO crystal malts or anything other than base malt. It turned out fantastic. So, in conclusion: "it depends."
I use C120 and Special B as my base malts.
masskrug
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Motor oil is motor oil.
BreezyBrew
IPA is my spirit animal
I also think people's palates evolve over time. At least mine has. I've been brewing for over 3 years now and the styles I brew the most (IPAs, Pales, Rye beers) have less and less crystal in them. Over the last 8 or 9 years, I see this on what I purchase on a commercial scale too. Rogue beers all have a nice malty character to them. This does mean they come off sweeter. I also have found myself moving from East Coast IPAs to West Coast. Some of the East Coast come off as cloying to me since they generally have more malt presence.
Beernik
Well-Known Member
It's not fermentability vs unfermentability. Crystal malts impart a sweet flavor.
I don't notice the sweetness at a ratio of 8oz to 5 gallons of beer or less. There are only two recipes that I have that I use more than that: a sweet stout and an IRA. Both are beers that I want to leave a caramelly sweetness in.
Ralelen
Well-Known Member
Dont go to the Beer advocate home brew forums. Their mantra is "hops good, crystal bad".
I've discovered that I have a general aversion to Crystal malts; certainly when it's just used more for color. I detect a flavor that's hard for me to describe; cloying could be it but what I taste isn't sweetness... So I've been trying to reduce or eliminate Crystal from the recipes I brew except for when it's there for both sweetness and color. I've been generally happier with the outcome of my brews when doing this.
It could be that a lot of recipes have too much to begin with as has been eluded to on this thread. From this forum, I've learned that doing things like using small amounts of de-bittered black malt can add color without contributing much if any flavors. So far, so good...
It could be that a lot of recipes have too much to begin with as has been eluded to on this thread. From this forum, I've learned that doing things like using small amounts of de-bittered black malt can add color without contributing much if any flavors. So far, so good...
BrewinBromanite
Well-Known Member
Same here. Due to personal taste preference, I rarely go above a half pound of crystal. If I want more body, I'll mash higher (malto dextrin for extract brewers will get you there, without, IMO, the excess residual "cloying" sweetness of excessive crystal malts). If I want more "malty" flavor, I also frequently like to layer in a few pounds each of Munich and Vienna, along with the 2-row or MO base. This adds plenty of malty-complexity and character, and you can control the heaviness with mash temps. Again, this is all personal taste. Nearly every brew I've made that had a full pound to pound and a half of crystal (for a 5 gallon batch), I thought left too much residual sweetness. I've seen others rave about recipes that have a pound and a half to 2 pounds crystal malt. To each his/her own!
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The10mmKid
Well-Known Member
Billy's Sessionable CaraKlubb
Unless I am brewing a Saison or dry stout,I use a minimum of 5% crystal of some sort. English styles get 10% and the same amount of sugar(balance?).
Hate CaraHell,even 5% of the grain bill can make it too sweet.
Trends are for trend followers. Trend followers are sheep/ever-teenagers
Hate CaraHell,even 5% of the grain bill can make it too sweet.
Trends are for trend followers. Trend followers are sheep/ever-teenagers
I may make a Doppel Bock with that name now.
a good number of us didn't color inside the lines when we were teenagers.
slym2none
"Lazy extract brewer."
wobdee
Junior Member
Does anyone find a difference between your typical 40-60L crystal malts and Caramunich? Maybe its just me but I think there's a bit less sweetness or fruitiness in Caramunich.
I think in the early craft beer movement in the 90's they were reacting against the bud/coors beers, and ingredients were limited. Craft beer, and homebrew, was all malt, heavy, and 10-20% crystal, and everyone had a porter or stout on tap. Being thick and heavy was a selling point, and almost no one made lagers. You can stlll see this with some of the older breweries around here. (for example, Rogue, Bridgeport, compared to say boneyard.)
I use some crystal malt, but only when needed, not as an, of course. Generally the darker colors, for their dark fruit flavors, 1-5% range. Sure a 1.040 bitter I may use 8% 80L sometimes. But its been ages since i used much 10-40L, which adds mostly just sweetness and heaviness. I rather err on the side of too dry.
I think breweries and homebrewers are correcting back to a norm. European breweries from which most of the styles we brew are based on, dont generally use a large level of crystal, and arent afraid to use sugar (outside of germany of course). And the beers are more drinkable/session-able in general. And use more complex basemalts to get malt flavor/balance, not the crystal malt hammer. I think in general craft breweries/homebrewers are moving back somewhat in that direction (minus the wheelbarrows full of hops, of course), beers are getting, drier, session beers are a thing, and lagers are actually made, and not just made to appease the BMC drinker.
I use some crystal malt, but only when needed, not as an, of course. Generally the darker colors, for their dark fruit flavors, 1-5% range. Sure a 1.040 bitter I may use 8% 80L sometimes. But its been ages since i used much 10-40L, which adds mostly just sweetness and heaviness. I rather err on the side of too dry.
I think breweries and homebrewers are correcting back to a norm. European breweries from which most of the styles we brew are based on, dont generally use a large level of crystal, and arent afraid to use sugar (outside of germany of course). And the beers are more drinkable/session-able in general. And use more complex basemalts to get malt flavor/balance, not the crystal malt hammer. I think in general craft breweries/homebrewers are moving back somewhat in that direction (minus the wheelbarrows full of hops, of course), beers are getting, drier, session beers are a thing, and lagers are actually made, and not just made to appease the BMC drinker.
marcownz747
Certified Cicerone, YPG vet
That's NECESSARILY a question of fermentability vs unfermentability. Sugars and starches that impart a sweetness are either fermented fully into alcohol or left fully or partially untouched. Sugar adds sweetness, but it ferments fully. Lactose and certain polysaccharides (like those found in crystal malts, depending on the variety and maltster making it) aren't fermentable... so their sweetness remains past fermentation.
Saying "X adds sweetness, that's just what it does" means that it's adding polysaccharides, simple sugars, or artificial sweeteners which aren't being converted by yeast.
You'll see a clear difference in the sweetness added based on when you add it to your wort. If you steep it in your wort AFTER mash out, you'll have a higher number of polysaccharides. If you include your crystal malt in a mash which has a diastatic power high enough to convert excess starches, your wort will enzematically convert many of those starches, and you'll be left with a drier beer. The main benefit of this is to introduce more maillard reaction products without having to boil extensively.
But TL;DR, ANY SWEETNESS you taste after fermentation is entirely due to the sweetener being unfermentable. If that sweetness is coming from crystal malt, you can mitigate it with a higher diastatic power in your wort.
And to reiterate, ALL sweetness is either fermentable or non-fermentable, making fermentability necessarily part of the discussion on crystal malt.
Randy Mosher has mentioned something about too much crystal malt being used in a couple podcasts, if i remember correctly. Says a lot of people use it out of habit from the past (secondary?), and there are a lot more malts out there. Maybe he just wants to see some different malts being used?
Owly055
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I find myself using less crystal...... probably because I'm making higher gravity beers which tend to be more malty simply by virtue of having a larger grain bill. For color, I find myself turning to dark Munich....... I like the flavor of the Munich. Red X is another malt that offers lots of color without the sweetness you get with crystal malts....... a mystery malt that looks exactly like 2 row, but yields a rich color. I just ordered a few pounds of Midnight Wheat for it's ability to deepen colors. There are a lot of options..........
H.W.
H.W.
slym2none
"Lazy extract brewer."
Is Red X a steeping specialty grain? Will it help with body & head retention like some of those grains do? I have an extract IPA I am brewing next that I'd like to get a little red hue into, and was going to go with a little Crystal 60L for all those reasons listed above, but if it's gonna make it too sweet, maybe the Red X would serve my purpose.
wobdee
Junior Member
I believe someone posted awhile back that Red X is a mix of Munich and Melanioden malts. I used it 100% once in a 1.050 lager and it turned out a really nice malty red colored lager.
Owly055
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I don't think that's accurate at all.......... Red X appears to be a special process malt. It bears no real resemblance to either Munich or Melanoiden malts, no combination of which would give you that color. Flavor wise it resembles Munich. It is a base malt with a high diastatic power, not a specialty or steeping malt...... I've been thinking about ordering a 50 pound sack of it through the LHBS.
H.W.
stevedasleeve
Well-Known Member
Whatever, trends and fads have no effect on my brewing. I use Crystal in every beer except black beers. I really like UK medium (60 or so) Crystal malts and have grown to like Golden Naked Oats which is crystal oat malt. In my IPAs I'm usually adding 8 oz, for session beers, which are now 50% of what I brew, upwards of 16 oz. Ambers 1.5 lbs is normal. I don't like crystal at all in hoppy black beers, wheat beers, or stouts. FWIW, and YMMV, and WTF etc.
Cheers!
Steve da sleeve
Cheers!
Steve da sleeve
Patrick87
Well-Known Member
FWIW, one of the best extract IPA's I've made so far didn't have any crystal malt in it, just 1 lb. of steeped Victory malt and Munton's "Light" DME. Bittered with Summit and flavored/dry hopped with Falconer's Flight.
slym2none
"Lazy extract brewer."
Beernik
Well-Known Member
You know the random usage of caps lock totally makes your argument.
Or not.
Not all sweetness is fermentability vs non-fermentability. I'm talking about apparent sweetness. Apparent sweetness is not directly related to the actual amount of sugar in something. It's related to acidity, saltiness, fruitiness, flavor, texture, and aroma among other things.
For instance, you can mix sugar with lemon juice and still have a tart flavor because of the acidity. It takes quite a bit of sugar to overcome the tartness of the acidity and end up with a sweet lemonade.
Depending upon the lovibond of it, caramel malt flavors a are described as "candy like, mild caramel, sweet caramel, pronounced caramel, toffee, and burnt sugar". Those are not changed during fermentation. All of those flavors are ones your brain expects to taste sweet. You put those flavors in anything and your brain will make it taste sweeter than if they were not there.
If you use enough caramel malt so that you get a notocable candy/caramel/toffee flavor in your beer, you are going to perceive the beer as sweeter (regardless of the FG) than if you had kept those flavors from your beer and hit the same FG.
marcownz747
Certified Cicerone, YPG vet
And if you use that caramel malt in a higher diastatic power wort, rather than steeping it at the end, many of those caramel flavors and aromas are broken down a bit further and create a slightly more astringent aromas, helping to mitigate that apparent sweetness.
I'm not saying that Caramel malt imparts no sweetness. I'm saying that the level of sweetness it imparts is influenced heavily by when you add it to the mash. Either way you have caramel or toffee aromas, yes. But depending on where you add it you have a different ratio of caramelized simple sugars and caramelized polysaccharides. A higher ratio of caramelized simple sugars increases fermentability, reduces actual sweetness in the final product, and heavily influences the direct and perceived sweetness.
For instance, if you caramelize sucrose... yes, it will be perceived in the final product as sweeter than a straight table sugar fermentation, but due to its high fermentability, it will also have a more astringent flavor to it. Doing the same thing with caramelized maltose, you will have an even sweeter final product, due to the maltose being less fermentable by yeast.
Adding your caramel malt early in the mash helps convert some of the polysaccharides in the malt into more simple sugars.
Sure, caramel aromas increase perceived sweetness, but that effect can be mitigated, so long as you're doing an AG brew.
Owly055
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Perceived sweetness is the ONLY sweetness that really matters.... obviously. The drinker's perception rather than the chemical analysis is what makes a good beer. With this in mind, I'm planning to use less crystal along with very small amounts of midnight wheat for color. The perception a drinker gets from a beer is based on many factors, and the visual perception is far more important than one might imagine. Your first impression of a person is visual, and it has a huge impact on how you relate to that person initially. The same is true of a beer. Color, Aroma, Flavor....... your mind processes all these things and spits out your reaction to the beer.
H.W.
stpug
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I have an american amber ale on tap right now with 2.625 lbs of crystal malts (>26% of grainbill in 5 gallons) and it doesn't come across as very "sweet". Caramel/toffee-forward maybe but not overly sweet. Granted, it's balanced well with hops 
marcownz747
Certified Cicerone, YPG vet
I never said perceived sweetness wasn't important. I said that the perceived sweetness can be mitigated, and in some cases reduced almost entirely, by using the Crystal Malt at different times in the mash.
Actual sweetness DOES matter, though, as it directly impacts perceived sweetness. A sweet aroma with an astringent or acidic mouthfeel might make you think the beer is slightly sweeter, but it will still taste significantly less sweet than the same aroma paired with unfermentable polysaccharides.
What I find interesting is that I too notice fewer recipes are calling for Crystal.
I also find it interesting that everyoen seems to think all crystal malts provide only color and sweetness. In reality the different crystal malts provide unique flavors, not just color and "sweetness".
I use less crystal than I did, but I don't make a lot of my own recipes. I do tend to use 8 ounces in some pale ales and IPAs. I don't prefer them too dry.
And crystal malts are absolutely necessary for some styles.
But the bottom line is that I think a lot of people who used to use a fair amount of crystal in their pale ales are now using less as their tastes change.
I also find it interesting that everyoen seems to think all crystal malts provide only color and sweetness. In reality the different crystal malts provide unique flavors, not just color and "sweetness".
I use less crystal than I did, but I don't make a lot of my own recipes. I do tend to use 8 ounces in some pale ales and IPAs. I don't prefer them too dry.
And crystal malts are absolutely necessary for some styles.
But the bottom line is that I think a lot of people who used to use a fair amount of crystal in their pale ales are now using less as their tastes change.
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