Diastatic Potential Of A Crystal Malt

[BrewingWisdom]

Hi
This time I want to make a crystal malt for my brewing. Just want to try it on 2kg barley because it's my first time making a crystal pale malt.
Crystal malt is a green fresh malt put straight into the oven. And the fermentable sugars are crystallized inside a grain. Correct me if I am wrong here.
But I have heard that crystal malt has a reduced diastatic potential. Is that true?

 

[bellhp]

Yes , Crystal malts have no diastatic power ... they are generally just steeped as they already contain fermentable sugar .
I may have oversimplified this but ... there you go.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

Yes , Crystal malts have no diastatic power ... they are generally just steeped as they already contain fermentable sugar .
I may have oversimplified this but ... there you go.

I know that process just rinses the sugars off the grain as opposed to the saccharification rest procedure. But if it contains the fermentable sugars then why it doesn't have a diastatic power?

 

[bellhp]

Again ... may be oversimplifying it ... but it lacks the enzymes .

 

[BrewingWisdom]

Again ... may be oversimplifying it ... but it lacks the enzymes .

All I need to know is whether it contains fermentable sugars for making a beer or not.
I hope someone more experienced and knowledgeable brewer can answer this.

 

[bellhp]

they are generally just steeped as they already contain fermentable sugar .

Pretty sure I answered that my man.

 

[hottpeper13]

Crystal malts are put in the kiln fully hydrated and steeped at converting temps then taken to higher temps to get the color and flavor desired. Because the temps go above enzyme ranges they are denatured. Think of each kernel as a mini mash tun where the starch is converted to sugar and then taken to mashout temps.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

Crystal malts are put in the kiln fully hydrated and steeped at converting temps then taken to higher temps to get the color and flavor desired. Because the temps go above enzyme ranges they are denatured. Think of each kernel as a mini mash tun where the starch is converted to sugar and then taken to mashout temps.

Hmmm so their purpose is just a color and flavor for the beer. They don't contribute to beer gravity?

 

[mac_1103]

Hmmm so their purpose is just a color and flavor for the beer. They don't contribute to beer gravity?

No. Like he said, they've basically already been mashed. The starches have already been converted. Ten pounds of steeped crystal malt will make five gallons of ~5% ABV beer. Not that I think anyone would actually do that.

 

[z-bob]

Hmmm so their purpose is just a color and flavor for the beer. They don't contribute to beer gravity?

Crystal malt does contain sugar that contributes alcohol to the beer. It might contain a little convertible starch too but I doubt it. It does not contain any enzymes; you need to get enzymes from another sources (usually pale mart)

 

[bellhp]

It contains sugar .
it will contribute to SG.
it contains some unfermentable sugars which will give you beer some sweetness after fermentation ... that is why it is used and generally as less than 10% of grist .

 

[BrewingWisdom]

No. Like he said, they've basically already been mashed. The starches have already been converted. Ten pounds of steeped crystal malt will make five gallons of ~5% ABV beer. Not that I think anyone would actually do that.

Thanks for the answer.
So how to add crystal malt along with another malt that requires mashing?

 

[mac_1103]

If you were buying it, I'd be inclined to think it wouldn't make much difference how you used it. But since you're malting your own, it's going to depend on the malting and kilning. If you add it to the mash, the enzymes from the base malt will work on any starches that didn't get converted during kilning. If you steep it separately that won't happen, so you might get more unfermentables depending on the efficiency of your kilning process.

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks for the answer.
So how to add crystal malt along with another malt that requires mashing?

Mill the crystal malt just like you would a base malt and mash them together. Any sugar already created in your crystal will be extracted and any starch will be converted by the enzymes in the base malt and also be extracted (both to the limit the extraction can take place which depends on how finely milled the grains are and the gravity of the wort)

 

[AlexKay]

Only some of the starch in crystal/caramel malts has been converted to sugars. Try chewing on some crystal ... it's sweet, but not that sweet. If you mash it, you'll extract both, and convert the remaining starch to sugar, so added crystal definitely will increase your wort gravity.

My understanding is that the residual sweetness that crystal gives to beer comes from Maillard products (which are sweet and not fermentable) instead of sugars.

 

[sibelman]

At the risk of overstating things already known, but just to make sure @BrewingWisdom has the terms straight, 'cuz the question in post #3 suggests maybe not...

if it contains the fermentable sugars then why it doesn't have a diastatic power?

Sugars don't have diastatic power; the enzymes found in unkilned malt do (as @bellhp said). Heat destroys those enzymes, so even lightly kilned crystal malt can't be relied on to convert starches to sugars. As @RM-MN points out, some starches might still be present in crystal malt. Including the crystal malt in the mash with the enzyme-rich base malt (that does have diastatic power) will convert those remaining starches to sugars.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Commercial specialty (crystal?) malts with diastatic power include Opal 22 & Opal 44 (link to downloads page).

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/testing-fermentability-of-crystal-malt.208361/
Or do a overnight cold steep of four different malts. Make a single malt wort and ferment in a quart (or half gallon) jar. Four or five different malts should offer some insights:

• a basic "two row" Brewers Malt
• Victory malt (or brown malt)
• Crystal 60
• Chocolate (or black)

 

[hottpeper13]

High dry malts are not crystal malts and most have enough "D" power to self convert. Biscuit, victory, Munich 10 ,Munich 20, Red X , ect. These are dried before raising the temp for kilning.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... as a follow-on experiment, do a overnight cold steep and on the next day heat the wort to 150F and hold for 60 minutes. Make a single malt wort and ferment in a quart (or half gallon) jar. Four or five different malts should offer some insights:

• a basic "two row" Brewers Malt
• Victory malt (or brown malt)
• Crystal 60
• Chocolate (or black)

 

[VikeMan]

High dry malts are not crystal malts and most have enough "D" power to self convert. Biscuit, victory, Munich 10 ,Munich 20, Red X , ect. These are dried before raising the temp for kilning.

Do you have a source for a known DP of Biscuit(s) and/or Victory? In malt specs/vendor notes, all I've ever seen are:

- Vendor notes like "this malt contains no enzymes for conversion"
- "0" in the DP section of vendor provided specs
- No number listed in the DP section (i.e. the section was there, but the place where the number would be was blank) of vendor and maltster provided specs
- No DP section in vendor and maltster provided specs

It's also interesting that Briess lists 45 Lintner for their 20L Munich, but lists nothing (i.e. there's no DP section at all) for Victory.

My assumption has always been that when a maltster is mum on DP specs, it's (usually?) because the malt is non-diastatic (or perhaps just too low for self-conversion?), so I've always treated them as if they have 0 degrees Lintner. Which may make sense given that Biscuit(s)/Victory are darker (thus kilned longer and/or hotter) than the other malts you listed.

 

[DBhomebrew]

The only biscuit-type that I'm aware of with DP is Simpson's Imperial.

"Our Imperial Malt imparts a full-bodied flavour and biscuit aroma. The warm brown notes it adds to the wort intensify the depth of colour, without compromising enzymic activity."

BTW, OP isn't just asking about crystal, they're asking about home-malted and home-kilned crystal.

 

[VikeMan]

The only biscuit-type that I'm aware of with DP is Simpson's Imperial.

"Our Imperial Malt imparts a full-bodied flavour and biscuit aroma. The warm brown notes it adds to the wort intensify the depth of colour, without compromising enzymic activity."

BTW, OP isn't just asking about crystal, they're asking about home-malted and home-kilned crystal.

Interesting. I hadn't heard of Simpson's Imperial, so I just looked it up. Color is 15.6-19.3 Lovibond, so it's a lot lighter than a typical biscuit malt. Seems more like "dark munich" territory.

 

[hottpeper13]

I'm going to Proximity Malting on Tuesday next week , I'll ask about they're Biscuit 20. The Prox Red is 18* L and 80 DP

 

[mac_1103]

FWIW Brewer's Friend has 14 different biscuit malts in their recipe builder. All but three have 0 DP. The exceptions are RedShed Biscuit 18L (6), The Swaen BlackSwaen Biscuit 30L (60) and Voyager Craft Malt Bicuit 15.23L (27). The Proximity Biscuit 20L is listed as 0 DP. Not sure how reliable all of their data is, but I assume that most if not all of it comes from the manufacturers.

 

[kevin58]

Interesting. I hadn't heard of Simpson's Imperial, so I just looked it up. Color is 15.6-19.3 Lovibond, so it's a lot lighter than a typical biscuit malt. Seems more like "dark munich" territory.

Ron Pattinson once commented on one of his Let's Brew recipe posts that Simpsons Imperial was an acceptable substitute for High Dried Malt... which shows up in brew logs from time to time.

 

[hottpeper13]

While at Proximity Malt yesterday I talked to the lab technician that actually performs the DP tests. They list the DP at 0 when they're very low. The biscuit(formerly roasted 20 is 0.