Imperial Red Velvet Ale experiment

Long time reader, first time poster - 8 month homebrewer.

I was watching "True Blood" and, it being close to Halloween, I got this wild brained idea to try to make a blood red beer. This thought snowballed a little out of control, as they often do with me, and then I thought "How about a sweet dessert beer!" My favorite dessert is red velvet cake with cream cheese frosting. THEN I thought "I want it boozy! Let's make it Imperial!" Thus, this crazy possibly terrible recipe was born.

I already bought the ingridients and the step-starter is underway -- it's too late now.

Here's the plan -- I'm a little curious what fellow more experienced brewers will have to say:

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Recipe Type: Extract
Batch Size: 3 gallons (full boil)
Boil Time: 60 minutes
Est Original Gravity: 1.080 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.021 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.84 %
Bitterness: 16.3 IBU
Est Color: 18.0 SRM
Taste Notes: Very experimental. Trying to create a blood colored beer for Halloween that resembles red velvet cake flavors (chocolately, creamy, vanillia sweet with silky texture). This is very experiental and possibly stupid - this beer will likely suck.

5.00 lb Extra Light Dry Extract (3.0 SRM) 82.64 %
0.22 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) 3.64 %
0.15 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) 2.48 %
0.10 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) 1.65 %
0.08 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) 1.32 %
0.50 oz Goldings (US) [4.90 %] (45 min) 9.8 IBU
0.50 oz Goldings (US) [4.90 %] (20 min) 6.5 IBU
0.50 items Beet (Boil 15.0 min)
0.50 oz Vanilla (Alcohol Based) (Boil 0.0 min)
1.00 tbsp Creme De Cacao (Bottling 3.0 weeks)
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 days)
1.50 oz Cocoa Powder (Boil 0.0 min)
0.25 lb Brown Sugar, Light (8.0 SRM) 4.13 %
0.25 lb Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 SRM) 4.13 %
1 Pkgs London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) [Starter 3.8 lt]

--------- Steeping Notes ---------
- Steeping for 25 minutes @ 165-degrees

--------- Red Color / Adding Beets ---------
- Thinly slicing (about 1/8”) half a beet and boil during last 20 minutes in steeping bag. Should add little to know flavor but a lot of color.

---------- Chocolate, Vanilla & Lactose Prep ----------
- Adding cocoa powder to about 1 -2 cups water and mixing well. Then stirring in lactose and vanilla (to taste). Heating to 180-degrees, or just before boiling, for 10 minutes then adding to boil at knockout.

---------- Fermentation Notes ----------
- Fermenting at lower 66-68, if possible. Cocoa flavors / aromas are better extracted at these temperatures per my research.

---------- Bottling Notes ----------
- Will add Creme De Cacao at bottling only if it tastes like it could use it. Same goes for adding more cocoa, vanilla, red food coloring and/or lactose.


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I'll post the results, if there's interest in this bloody experimental recipe.

I would hold off on adding any of the vanilla early, since it is alcohol based it is easy to cook off, just add it at bottling to taste. I'd do the same with the lactose so you can skip it if the beer is sweet enough.

I've had bad luck with "concept" beers, so hopefully you have better luck than me.

I like the idea and see where you're going with this. My questions are with the following:

0.50 items Beet (Boil 15.0 min) Is this half of 1 beet?? The beets should add a nice chunk of sugar to the boil. Perhaps add some pureed beets a little at a time? Also, not sure what the rest of the grain bill will do for the color you want. What if you held off on the roasted barley and chocolate malt, and even the cocoa powder until midway through the boil (since it's extract it should be fine, right?) so you have hands-on control with the color?

0.50 oz Vanilla (Alcohol Based) (Boil 0.0 min) I would not add this until after primary fermentation is done.
1.00 tbsp Creme De Cacao (Bottling 3.0 weeks) I would not add this until after primary fermentation is done.
0.25 lb Milk Sugar (Lactose) (0.0 SRM) 4.13 % I would not add this until after primary fermentation is done.

One request, if i may. Please take photos of the wort as you go through this. I'm interested to see how the beets behave in this manner.

for the color alone, i would probably limit my specialty malts. the darker the beer the less the red color will show. I would focus on just base malts and let a lot of the flavor, and a little color, come from the flavor additions of cocoa. maybe use something like victory which is still light but can add a little of the bready/ toasty flavor so the malt isnt too bland and a small amount of a low crystal to add flavor.

i would skip the cocoa powder. just go with the creme de cacao at bottling. use the light so you dont get any color. the lactose is a good idea to bring out the sweetness. save the vanilla for bottling/kegging time as well.

as for the red color, i would just use red dye. after all, that is what they use in red velvet anyway. you can test it in a glass of the fermented beer before you add to the entire batch just to see if the color would be right.

i would say do a small partial mash type to get the color lighter...something simple like
1lb 2-row
.25lb victory
.25lb crystal 10-20 or honey malt
however much extract you need to get to your desired gravity (if you can find the pilsen extract use it as it is the lightest you can find...once again not affecting the color at the end)

only a bittering addition...somewhere in the 20-25 IBU range

add cocoa in the last 5 minutes of the boil

0.50 items Beet (Boil 15.0 min) Is this half of 1 beet??

Click to expand...

Yes - that's half a beet. A puree might be a good idea, or simply boiling the cut up beet and just adding the resulting red water to the boil until the wort is red enough... And a good catch on the sugar content of beets. I found an article noting:

The sweet taste of beets reflects their high sugar content making them an important raw material for the production of refined sugar; they have the highest sugar content of all vegetables.

Click to expand...

That could be a concern and I may just want to go with the red food coloring option as dirty_martini suggested. hmmm...

As far as grain bill and getting a red color - I've never used it before, but I researched that roasted barely added a red tinge to beer, a silky mouthfeel and imparted chocolate flavors, which are three aspects I wanted to target for that red velvet cake concept. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought about using Victory, but I felt it might add too much spiciness and would be orange instead the red I'm looking for. I considered using Pilsen Extract, as well, but I was concerned over doing the sweetness because I also really want to include lactose for mouthfeel.

Based on these suggestions, I may reduce the grain bill on the roasted barley and maybe just cut the chocolate malt altogether. May also reduce the brown sugar in case the beets DO up the sugar content. I'll steep at the top of the boil and remove the grain bag if it's looking too dark. Flavors will be coming mostly from cocoa, vanilla and lactose anyway, as dirty_martini noted.

Will not be using cocoa powder anymore - the wife got nibs instead, which I'm happy with. Will definitely be adding nibs, vanilla & lactose to secondary. Taste tests should give me an idea by bottling time if I need more lactose, cocoa or the creme de cacao and maybe food coloring.

This is going down tomorrow! Pictures it is, fineexampl. May as well give the beet thing a whirl - after all, it is an experiment.

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Future Brews: 1) Imperial Red Velvet Ale 2) Magnifera Indica Belgae (Fort George Clone) 3) Spruce Budd Ale (Fort George Brewing) 4) Simcoe Imperial IPA

Primary: 1) It's the Great Pumpkin Ale, Charlie Brown 2) Basic Cider 3) A Brave New Cider

Bottled: 1) Winter Warmer (Harpoon Clone) 2) Thick Headed Milk Chocolate Stout 3) Caramel Vanilla Cream Ale 4) Back in Black IPA

Alright. I brewed this up earlier today and things went better than anticipated.

I ended up pulling the grain steep bag after 10-minutes because the color was getting pretty dark. The roasted barley definitly added a nice red/dark amber color. I did end up slicing and boiling the half-a-beet in the last 20 minutes of the boil. About 5-minutes after adding the sliced beet, the wort took on a dark red-brown color, which is what I was going for. A worthwhile note is that the ferocity of the boil was reduced when the beets were added, which suggests that they possibly added more than just color - they definitely contributed a somewhat earthy flavor profile, from what I can tell at this point..

After the 2.75 gallons of wort was sitting in the 3 gallon carboy for the first few minutes there was a very strange amount of suspended white-ish sediment - it dropped considerably after an hour or so, but I can only think that it was the beet slices that contributed it and that they also likely contributed to the suger content to an unknown degree and will also add a possible pectin haze later on. In a future iteration of this recipe, I may boil the beets separately and use the filtered red water to color the wort (I'd like to avoid using food coloring if possible).

In any case, I did hit my 1.080 OG, somehow, and fermentation began with gusto about 15-minutes after pitching yeast. The white-ish sediment droppped considerably and the beer has an interesting deep reddish-brown color - it looks like I have a huge jug of blood in my computer room, which is strangely exactly what I was aiming for this upcoming Halloween ("Velcome to my chamber. Would's thou partake of a drink of BLAUD!" So, it looks like color should be okay for now. As for taste...

From my sample, the wort seems to have a robustness, slight roastiness and silkness but I'll have to wait to be sure is there at the right levels. After primary, I'll be adding the chocolate nibs, vanilla and lactose for the sweetness, creaminess and chocolate aspects. And bottling refinements are to be determined. I'm very curious to see how things will turn out at this point...

If other brewers are interested, I'll definitely be sure to post my results. This recipe seems to be not as sucky as I thought it would be - unless that suckiness is all about vampires drinking blood...

One request, if i may. Please take photos of the wort as you go through this. I'm interested to see how the beets behave in this manner.

Click to expand...

Per fineexampls's request, pictures of the beet red-coloring process are included below (sorry for the quality, all I have is a crappy camera on my phone right now and pictures are posted on my domain):

Photo of the sliced beets is here:
http://home.comcast.net/~loveimagined/Photo-0209.jpg

Photo of the reddish wort boiling is here:
http://home.comcast.net/~loveimagined/Photo-0217.jpg

Photo of the fermentor w/ redish beer is here:
http://home.comcast.net/~loveimagined/Photo-0218.jpg

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Future Brews: 1) Magnifera Indica Belgae (Fort George Clone) 2) Spruce Budd Ale (Fort George Brewing) 3) Simcoe Imperial IPA

Primary: 1) It's the Great Pumpkin Ale, Charlie Brown 2) Basic Cider 3) A Brave New Cider 4) Imperial Red Velvet Ale

Bottled: 1) Winter Warmer (Harpoon Clone) 2) Thick Headed Milk Chocolate Stout 3) Caramel Vanilla Cream Ale 4) Back in Black IPA

i'm guessing something like this is going to take some reworking after a few trials runs. between the color and flavor there's alot going on. i'm a huge fan of red velvet (swmbo wants that as a wedding cake) so i'm curious as to how it's going. any tasting notes? blow off from the fermentation? you're about 3 weeks after primary so it's about time to secondary and possibly add some special flavor additions and see how it's all coming together... don't forget about your fellow HBT'rs following along!!

btw, you're gonna need a LOT more creme de cacao in there during bottling to make any noticable addition. don't be shy about tossing in a little more

i'm guessing something like this is going to take some reworking after a few trials runs.

Click to expand...

I'd say you guess correctly, jessup. As coincidence would have it, I actually bottled this today. I moved a bit faster than I probably should have through the steps but, as you'll read below, it wasn't going to be a batch worth taking the extra care and time for...

Fermentation Notes:
Fermentation began almost immediately after pitching, and was complete (FG: 1.017) within 4 days. There was a 4 inch dark reddish-tan kreusend during that time and the airlock was like a cowboy on a bucking broco.

Seconardy Notes
Racked to secondary on day 6 after three days of consistent 1.017 readings. Prior to adding adjuncts, the color was much lighter - a reddish-pink; taste was roasty with a fairly strong earthy flavor that had to have come from the beet with some alcohol heat at the finish; mouthfeel was pretty thin, not the silkiness I was hoping for.

I racked on top of the below adjuncts:
- 1 tbsp Vanilla Extract (Bourbon based)
- 3 oz Cacao Nibs (soaked in vodka for a couple hours)
- 2.4 oz Lactose

After a week, I did a taste test. A richer/stronger flavor but very little to no chocolate flavor detected - if anything, it tasted more roasty/smoky than before. Eartiness still present. Heat at the finish but milder. Color a dusty rose pink.

Bottling Notes
I went ahead and bottled the 2.25 gallons 21 days after brew day. The flavors weren't coming together as hoped, so I figured I'd hang 'em up on this batch - still, not a bad beer by any means so worth bottling (if for no other reason than to allow fellow brewers to provide suggestions for version 1.1).

Just prior to bottling, the flavors were the same as noted previously but stronger, with the heat tapering off - very clear and still dusty pink (looks like an Irish Red with a pinkish hue).

I decided to add adjuncts at bottling as a last attempt to salvage the chocolaty flavor I was aiming for (boiled for 10-minutes and cooled) - remember this is a 2.25 gallon batch at this point:
- 6 oz Lactose
- .5 oz vanilla
- 1 oz Creme De Cacao
- 1.25 oz Cacao Powder
- 1.6 oz Corn Sugar (for priming)

Next Batch Notes
The problems were over roastiness, too earthy, too much heat, not enough chocolate flavor, not silky enough and the red color looks more like cranberry wine than dark red blood. Basically, I failed on every aspect. However, I think this beer could still work with some big modifications.

I'd hesitate to use a beet again, or would at least use it differently next time. It added too much flavor and perhaps an unexpected amount of sugar. So for color, maybe try CaraRed or bite the bullet and use food coloring next time.

To correct the strong roastiness and lack of the dark bloody color, I'd probably replace the Roasted Barley with something else - maybe use more Chocolate Malt and/or Munich Malt Extract...?

For better silkiness, perhaps try a partial mash with flaked oats? Or just use more CaraPils, lactose and/or maltodextrin...?

Will definitely need to use a lot more chocolate next time, whether it be nibs or powder. And more vanilla, as well.

Suggestions welcome - wish I could share a bottle.


PS - jessup, that Bourbon Pecan Pie Ale sounds delectable...

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Future Brews: 1) Magnifera Indica Belgae (Fort George Clone) 2) Spruce Budd Ale (Fort George Brewing) 3) Simcoe Imperial IPA

Primary: 1) It's the Great Pumpkin Ale, Charlie Brown 2) Basic Cider 3) A Brave New Cider 4) Imperial Red Velvet Ale

Bottled: 1) Winter Warmer (Harpoon Clone) 2) Thick Headed Milk Chocolate Stout 3) Caramel Vanilla Cream Ale 4) Back in Black IPA

damn, I thought I came up with the Red Velvet Porter, you beat me to it.

1) Was it too much beet flavor that was the problem or was there too much sugar from the beet? (ie. if you fermented beet juice by itself, then boiled, ie. distilled, off the alcohol to get unfermentable dark red beet juice, would the flavor profile be right for a coloring addition, or too much?)

2) How was the end sweetness? Would you go with more/less lactose to get the result?

3) If it was kegged with a creamer faucet, do you think you would have gotten more of the creaminess that you were looking for, or is this beer not built right for that kind of setup?

PS: Maybe I can still beat you to the Carrot Cake Porter... we'll see

Hi GypsyHead,

First off, now that it's been in the bottle for a month or so, the flavor has evened out - there's more of a chocolaty flavor and the lactose sweetness comes through - but there's still a strong eartiness and a lot of chill haze. However, the color looks great (a nice blood red). Answering your questions:

1) Yes on both counts. Beet flavor was definitely an issue. Very earthy. And I can't say for sure, but I suspect it did add quite a bit of sugar, as well:
- Flavor: I'd still prefer to use beets for coloring rather than dye. After all, beet food coloring is often used for red velvet cake recipes. After further research I found that the skin of the beet was likely the flavor culprit (I didn't skin the beets). From what I understand, it's a good idea to boil the beets for 10-minutes, then toss them in ice water for a few minutes. Then the skin should peel right off. There are several sources online for creating the food coloring from beets.
Sugar: I think fermenting the beet juice alone then boiling off the alcohol prior to adding it to the wort is a good idea. I'd be curious to see a hydrometer reading and ABV on that (hmmm... beet beer...), also would be interested to see how the final dye product tastes. If it's red and has a mild flavor it'd be an easy thing to add it as needed to secondary.

2) Sweetness & lactose amount: It's difficult to say because the flavors are so out of wack, but there's definitely a sweet finish. If I were to brew this again I'd use much less lactose - I used a little over 8 oz for a 3 gallon batch. I'd probably use half next time and that should be sweet/creamy enough after other adjuncts are added. It's always an option to add more at bottling if it's needed.

3) Kegged w/ creamer faucet: I wish I had a setup like that - yes, that'd aid the texture for sure. Nitro baby!

If I were to brew this again notes:
- Skin the beets!
- Use de-sugared beet dye in secondary or bottling
- 1/2 the lactose and (still use none on brew day)
- No roasted barley
- More CaraPils or maybe use wheat extract
- Maybe use Munich malt
- A little more chocolate malt
- No brown sugar
- Use a lot more chocolate nibs for a longer duration in secondary
- Maybe add more vanilla
- Maybe add more Creme De Cacao
- Maybe add a touch of cinnamon
- Keep the same yeast

GypsyHead - please keep me posted on your Red Velvet Porter. I'd like to get this recipe locked in. Very curious about that carrot cake porter, as well...

Brewing next week: Magnifera Indica Belgae (Fort George Brewing clone I'm working on). A Belgian golden strong fermented with mango puree and bouron soaked toasted French oak cubes. OG: 1.079

Thoughts? I'm thinking the steeping grains are a bit out of whack, but they get me the SRM, ABV, and IBUs I think I'm looking for.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/help-red-velvet-porter-206006/#post2404653

Great minds must think alike because a "Red Velvet Imperial Red Ale" took home 1st Place at the 2010 Great American Beer Festival...

http://blogs.laweekly.com/squidink/2010/09/eagle_rock_gabf_wins_gold.php

It looks like Rye was the secret killer ingredient.

Damn you, Eagle Rock Brewing!!!! I used Rye, but I don't think I properly colored the beer. I've decided that me furture attempt probably won't use beet juice - too much of a wild card. Instead, I will likely go for a Chocolate Cream Vanilla porter and color with food coloring later - giving up the ghost of all natural food dye. That is, of course, unless my predecessor, Gypsyhead, sucessfully utilizes beet juice as a coloring agdent...

Thanks Rcr...

just now opening the bottles, first, the non-beet version, a delicious chocolate porter, still needs a week or two of conditioning, but had most of the flavor notes I was looking for. will report back on the beet versions.