is wort chilling time for sanitation only?

Is a low chilling time strictly a sanitation issue, or can the amount of time also affect other factors in the final product (taste, texture, etc...)?

About 90% bacteria control, the little buggers can double in 20 minutes. Give them 6 hours and your wort is a culture.

About the only exception I can think of would be a 0 min. hop addition. The exact cooling profile will change what oils are retained.

Also, a quick chill from boil is necessary to generate a good cold break. A good cold break precipitates proteins and other compounds that can lead to instability during storage, and will also help reduce chill haze in the final product.

John

I was wondering the same thing...

Isn't it great to have a forum that you can post a question to and have 2 excellent answers in half an hour?

Great work guys.

'tis great indeed. and greatly appreciated.

Ok.... so now the tough question... how long is the chilling time? Longest I've gone has been two hours.

Beer Snob said:

Ok.... so now the tough question... how long is the chilling time? Longest I've gone has been two hours.

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That is the million dollar question. How quick is quick? IMHO the time to chill from boil should be 45 minutes or less. The longer it takes to cool, the more susceptible it is to both bacterial infection and oxidation. The cold break proteins and other compounds will only precipitate out if they are thermally shocked. I don't think that thermal shock could occur if the chill time was more than 45 minutes long. Chill haze is really only a cosmetic problem, but can lead to long term stability problems as I stated earlier.

Probably the most overlooked issue with regard to extended wort chilling times is dimethyl sulphide (DMS) production. During the boil, DMS precursors are produced, but they are driven out and carried off in the steam by the boil, which incidentally, is the reason to NOT cover the boil kettle during the boil, besides the increased risk of boil over. During extended cooling times the DMS is still being produced by no longer removed by the boil and can lead to that cooked cabbage or corn off flavor.

John

well since summer has started, my chilling time as gone up alot. What used to take 20 minutes, now takes about 45-60. The ground water is too warm.

No biggy, I usually turn the chiller on and come and post some drunken rampblings in here.

Yeah, I agree with you Chimone. My tap water temp is at about 75˚F right now. The best it will do is to get my wort down to about 88˚F in 25-30 minutes or so.

I tried a procedure that was recommended to me by a very experienced, award winning homebrewer. After you get the wort down to around 100˚F with your tap water, disconnect your supply water hose from the tap and connect it to the discharge of a 1/6 hp submersible pump sitting in a 5 gallon bucket filled with ice water. Take the output hose from the chiller and put it into the bucket. Now recirculate the ice water until you reach your desired yeast pitching temp. Using this method on a 96˚F day, I was able to get my wort down from 100˚F to 62˚F in about 5 minutes. I only used 2 five lb bags of ice to do this. I was shocked at how well this worked.

John

My longest was actually overnight (my second batch) - I got it down to ~90F in ~20 mins, however, and capped the carboy until morning. The beer has no noticable off-flavors, so I'm glad I waited overnight to pitch the yeast.

This has made me want to get an immersion chiller as a next step. Should I buy from the homebrew store, or is it just as easy and cheaper to buy from a hardware store? How pricey/difficult is it to get a small pump and recirculate ice-water?

I just priced out copper tubing from Depot, and MAN is it expensive! It can't be cheaper to build than to buy right now. Depending on how much tubing and the size, I was looking at spending upwards of $75 before buying any of the fittings or anything. Kinda takes the pleasure out of the deal I got on the turkey fryer at the same location!

the_bird said:

I just priced out copper tubing from Depot, and MAN is it expensive! It can't be cheaper to build than to buy right now. Depending on how much tubing and the size, I was looking at spending upwards of $75 before buying any of the fittings or anything. Kinda takes the pleasure out of the deal I got on the turkey fryer at the same location!

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i just got a copper chiller from northern brewer for 39.95, it's the 25 foot deal which is about the current price for 25ft (which actually only comes in 50ft lengths) of copper tubing at Lowes. I was gonna build my own but since I could get one sent my house for the same price i thought "what the hell"

I imagine once they sell-out of the pre-price increase chillers their prices will go up.

I'm going the same route, gotta act quickly I suppose.

Although actually, I still have a gift cert to spend (~$40 or so) at a crappy local hardware store, so I'll hit that first.

Sorry for the hijack, but for the experts out there - how much tubing is "enough" for a good chiller? More obviosuly is better - but is 25 feet of 3/8 enough?

the_bird said:

... but is 25 feet of 3/8 enough?

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for 5 gallon batches...Yes!

mbarto said:

How pricey/difficult is it to get a small pump and recirculate ice-water?

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I picked up a Flotec 1/6 hp submersible pump from home depot for $59. It comes with a hose adapter. $4 for a 5 gallon bucket. I already had two 6' lengths of 3/4" garden hose, but if you needed those they are about $6 each, and then the cost of the ice, which as you know, is pretty cheap.

I would recommend getting a pre-made immersion chiller from one of the online vendors, such as Northern Brewer or B3. You won't save anything right now making one yourself, especially if you count your time as being worth something. Get one that has hose fittings.

The process could not be easier. Use your tap water to get your wort down to under 100˚F, then disconnect your tap water hose from the chiller. Connect one hose to the discharge of the pump, drop the pump into the ice water, and connect the discharge hose to the input of the chiller. Now take the output hose from the chiller and just put into the ice water bucket. Now turn on the pump and allow the ice water to recirculate until you hit your desired yeast pitching temperature. Done.

John

the info and advice has been fantastic. i'll definitely set myself up with an immersion chiller and pump before i brew another. thanks.

johnsma22 said:

The process could not be easier. Use your tap water to get your wort down to under 100?F, then disconnect your tap water hose from the chiller. Connect one hose to the discharge of the pump, drop the pump into the ice water, and connect the discharge hose to the input of the chiller. Now take the output hose from the chiller and just put into the ice water bucket. Now turn on the pump and allow the ice water to recirculate until you hit your desired yeast pitching temperature. Done.

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Why not just start off using the ice water? I would think you would just need more bags of ice and it would seem quicker.

Another way to give your tap water a little chilling boost is to use a pre-chilliong coil.

When I made my chiller, I bought 50 feet of copper, used 30 for the chiller and 20 for the pre-chiller. The pre-chiller goes in a bucket of ice water.

You can make a quick and dirty prechiller by just coiling the hose in a bucket and filloing it with ice water. I'm not sure how effective that would be, though.

johnsma22 said:

Yeah, I agree with you Chimone. My tap water temp is at about 75˚F right now. The best it will do is to get my wort down to about 88˚F in 25-30 minutes or so.

I tried a procedure that was recommended to me by a very experienced, award winning homebrewer. After you get the wort down to around 100˚F with your tap water, disconnect your supply water hose from the tap and connect it to the discharge of a 1/6 hp submersible pump sitting in a 5 gallon bucket filled with ice water. Take the output hose from the chiller and put it into the bucket. Now recirculate the ice water until you reach your desired yeast pitching temp. Using this method on a 96˚F day, I was able to get my wort down from 100˚F to 62˚F in about 5 minutes. I only used 2 five lb bags of ice to do this. I was shocked at how well this worked.

John

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wait, as i understand it, you should never add tap water directly to your wort, as the chlorine in the water will not only add some off tastes, but will also retard yeast activity. whenever i add water, i make sure it is either filtered or spring water. i will make my wort with tap water, but i'm guessing that the chlorine boils off during the hour it takes to make.

tockeyhockey said:

wait, as i understand it, you should never add tap water directly to your wort...

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The water never touches the wort. It flows through the coils of the wort chiller.

Cregar said:

Why not just start off using the ice water? I would think you would just need more bags of ice and it would seem quicker.

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It is due to the temp differential. The greater the difference in temperature, the greater the rate of heat transfer. Yes, starting off with ice water would be faster, but you would blow through a lot of ice in the process. The temperature differential between the boiling wort and your tap water is great enough, even if your tap water is relatively high, to bring down the temp of the wort to 100˚F very quickly.

By using ice water at this point, you again will have a large temperature differential and can quickly cool the wort down further, but you will not need a large amount of ice to do it. I used only 2 five pound bags to get the wort from 100˚F to 62˚F in only 5 minutes.

cweston said:

Another way to give your tap water a little chilling boost is to use a pre-chilliong coil.

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A pre-chiller is a valid way to try and cool your wort with higher tap water temps. I have tried it, but it did not work anywhere near as well as recirculating ice water through the chiller and it blew through a lot of ice. When you factor in the cost of copper, and the fact that someone would have to buy two chillers to accomplish this, I think you get more bang for your buck with the ice water/submersible pump recirc procedure.

The homebrewer who told me about this procedure uses it to get his lager wort temp down into the 40's. That is not going to happen with a pre-chiller.

John

cweston said:

The water never touches the wort. It flows through the coils of the wort chiller.

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oh. i thought you meant you were bringing your wort to a lower temp by doing a partial boil and then adding tap water.

tockeyhockey said:

oh. i thought you meant you were bringing your wort to a lower temp by doing a partial boil and then adding tap water.

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Which I did for several batches before going to full wort boils. I don't think most municipal water sources would have enough chlorine in them to really worry about, and I never had any ill effects. Again, just another personal preference, some choose to pre-boil the water, others do not.

clayof2day said:

Which I did for several batches before going to full wort boils. I don't think most municipal water sources would have enough chlorine in them to really worry about, and I never had any ill effects. Again, just another personal preference, some choose to pre-boil the water, others do not.

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FWIW, while some municipalities use chlorine, some use chloramines. Chlorine can be eliminated in simple ways, such as simply letting it gas out of the water over time (usually overnight) or by pre-boiling the water. Chloramines are not as easily degraded. Chloramines will breakdown with the use of campden tablets, which will break the chloramines into calcium, water and bicarbonate. Failure to deal with chlorine or chloramines can result in yeast metabolizing these into harsh medicinal notes called chlorophenols. This is also true of using too much chlorine as a sanitizer.

John

I have to say chloramines just suck. I can taste it in my tap-water and am forced to use store-bought artesian water for brewing and the like.

Exo said:

I have to say chloramines just suck. I can taste it in my tap-water and am forced to use store-bought artesian water for brewing and the like.

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Yeah you see thats the thing. Whether or not you can taste it... people try filtering it and all... in the end if you can taste good tap water your good to go (basicly).

I've run my water through a Brita. Tastes much better, but the brew I made with it long ago was "off". The artesian water is the niche I've found. I know some guys around here that drive 30 miles to a natural artesian well and fill 5-7gal jugs for brewing...that's dedication.