Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

Was Nordeast banned or something? I just tried to send him PM and it got rejected.

My "clone" finished at 1.015 and at first I thought that was too high, but the more I drink it the more I thought it was spot on. So this is good news for me at least.

bottlebomber said:

Was Nordeast banned or something? I just tried to send him PM and it got rejected.

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No, I don't think so. I think the mods suspended a couple people's PM ability due to bickering and heated PM's in debate of this beer.

EyePeeA said:

To the point where you think you are completely ridding the C02, will degassing a cold sample of beer that has been can conditioning for awhile yield dead accurate FG results when using a hydrometer? Maybe not. We need more than just two experiments, one on BeerAdvocate (1.010 FG) and the other on Homebrewtalk (1.014 FG) to come to a solid conclusion.

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I'm just glad someone is willing to do this and post the results since I don't have access to Heady right now.

DangerRoss said:

No, I don't think so. I think the mods suspended a couple people's PM ability due to bickering and heated PM's in debate of this beer.

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Yep.....Though neither of the people involved have posted since then, so I don't know.

VT native here.Thinking of heading to the cannery sometime in the coming week. Any things I should look out for or ways I can help with the effort? I really appreciate all the footwork that's gone into this. It's a real testament to how awesome the home brew community is. It would be a pleasure to help (and to have more regular access to heady)

Just got done talking to Nordeast, he (and the others invloved) got put in time out until Wednesday by the Mods.

nsap said:

VT native here.Thinking of heading to the cannery sometime in the coming week. Any things I should look out for or ways I can help with the effort? I really appreciate all the footwork that's gone into this. It's a real testament to how awesome the home brew community is. It would be a pleasure to help (and to have more regular access to heady)

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Pics of anything!! You never know when someone might have left something sitting out

I'll be there Friday and will snap some pics if I see anything valuable..

libeerty said:

I'll be there Friday and will snap some pics if I see anything valuable..

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Sweet!

EyePeeA said:

To the point where you think you are completely ridding the C02, will degassing a cold sample of beer that has been can conditioning for awhile yield dead accurate FG results when using a hydrometer? Maybe not. We need more than just two experiments, one on BeerAdvocate (1.010 FG) and the other on Homebrewtalk (1.014 FG) to come to a solid conclusion.

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You guys sure are skeptical, lol. I was hoping by providing the evidence we could move on and use the info to rebuild the recipe a bit. It wasn't an experiment so much as just verifying what I was told about the target FG was true. Just a question, but who would know about the real target FG of the real beer that I would have gotten this info from?

What does 1.014 do to change the beer? Will that cover the sweetness problem we've have noticed without having to add wheat or other malts? I have had conan go under 1.010 before, so I don't know what to do to get it to stop at 1.014, any ideas? No matter how much I mess with the recipe and mash temp I can only get it up to 1.011 with 8%ABV and that's with a 155 mash temp. Do you think they cold crash at around 1.014 to stop fermentation?

nsap said:

VT native here.Thinking of heading to the cannery sometime in the coming week. Any things I should look out for or ways I can help with the effort? I really appreciate all the footwork that's gone into this. It's a real testament to how awesome the home brew community is. It would be a pleasure to help (and to have more regular access to heady)

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Some key things we're looking for right now are:

Hops used in the beer
Any grain used other than Pearl Malt
Fermentation temperature
Yeast Pitching Rate

If you happen to meet John and can get any of that info for us, we would be really appreciative.

snail said:

I couldn't really see where the hoses and stuff were going to from the keg/pump combo. I'm assuming it must have been the conical. It looks like the keg is a bottom draining vessel. I wonder if there is a false bottom or something in it and they use it as a hop rocket type thing. At one point one of the workers grabbed the hose going into the keg and kinda moved to spray whatever was in it (again assuming hops).

The fermenters line the left and the right. There is a half-wall that you look over. The closest fermenter to me on the left read 54 and the one on the opposite side read 45. On one of the signs that describes the brewing process it said once most of the sugars are digested the yeast starts to settle to the bottom of the tank. This is when we chill the beer to 40 deg F to encourage settling. We condition 2-3 weeks before it is packaged.

So maybe the 45deg one was being chilled ?

edit: Oh and the whole building smelled like amazing hops from brewing!

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They probably ferment it around mid 50's and then cold crash it to 40. However, one would have to assume that they dry hop it inbetween that, right? Dry hopping with cold beer doesn't really work out fast enough, gives a bit of a different profile. I've noticed that when I rack a beer to a keg, and dry hop it cold in the kegerator, or I dry hop it in the keg at room temp and then chill and carb it. The warmer one gets a bit more flavor, faster.

Also, the keg and pump set up steaming.. don't get too up on the idea of a hot whirlpool. I doubt thats the case. If the worker picked it up to spray, he isn't spraying hot wort.

I'm guessing that it's a fermenter cleaning system. Hot PBW or something that they can move around from tank to tank to spray it all down and have pressure from it, hence the pump. Looks like a closed loop system there as well.

theveganbrewer said:

You guys sure are skeptical, lol. I was hoping by providing the evidence we could move on and use the info to rebuild the recipe a bit. It wasn't an experiment so much as just verifying what I was told about the target FG was true. Just a question, but who would know about the real target FG of the real beer that I would have gotten this info from?

What does 1.014 do to change the beer? Will that cover the sweetness problem we've have noticed without having to add wheat or other malts? I have had conan go under 1.010 before, so I don't know what to do to get it to stop at 1.014, any ideas? No matter how much I mess with the recipe and mash temp I can only get it up to 1.011 with 8%ABV and that's with a 155 mash temp. Do you think they cold crash at around 1.014 to stop fermentation?

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I'm thinking to get the smooth full mouth, they are mashing high, 156 or so, and cold crashing it out. Hence the low fermentation temp to keep it under check and from going nuts.

Ever had a beer get warm during fermentation. The process gets speed up 10 fold. I can brew the same beer with the same yeast, and one at 60 and the other at 70 and the 70 will be done days before and just speed along.

I'm guessing they ferment low, Conan is such a beast of a yeast that it eats through it no matter the temp, at the lower temps it must be throwing a pretty peachy/sweet ester that we all get, and then it gives them the time and ability to check the gravity and when it's close.. they cold crash it down to drop the conan as best as possible. I suspect that they all dry hop in the middle of the cold crash come to think of it.

Pile it on when it's done fermenting or when you stop fermentation and let it get to temp while it sits on the hops prior to canning.

If you are going to the brewery.

Two things..

Get me a couple of cans to use for this cloning attempt.

Last, try and find out the hops used.. Ask different people and see what they all say. Some might say half of whats used and the other might give another set of hops. Act stupid about beer, and they'll be more likely to fish along info I've found. Start asking odd questions and they will lock it out.

Really work on #1, but #2 is important as well.

FATC1TY said:

If you are going to the brewery.

Two things..

Get me a couple of cans to use for this cloning attempt.

Last, try and find out the hops used.. Ask different people and see what they all say. Some might say half of whats used and the other might give another set of hops. Act stupid about beer, and they'll be more likely to fish along info I've found. Start asking odd questions and they will lock it out.

Really work on #1, but #2 is important as well.

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Assuming I can get there in time to get some cans, I'll definitely do trades with people in this thread. (And I already promised you some Conan, right? )

theveganbrewer said:

You guys sure are skeptical, lol. I was hoping by providing the evidence we could move on and use the info to rebuild the recipe a bit. It wasn't an experiment so much as just verifying what I was told about the target FG was true. Just a question, but who would know about the real target FG of the real beer that I would have gotten this info from?

What does 1.014 do to change the beer? Will that cover the sweetness problem we've have noticed without having to add wheat or other malts? I have had conan go under 1.010 before, so I don't know what to do to get it to stop at 1.014, any ideas? No matter how much I mess with the recipe and mash temp I can only get it up to 1.011 with 8%ABV and that's with a 155 mash temp. Do you think they cold crash at around 1.014 to stop fermentation?

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I mashed at 152f, and finished at 1.015, which really surprised me and slightly disappointed me at the same time. But the beer tastes great, has a slight sweetness on the back end, just too much ripe fruit (I was heavy handed on the Amarillo and light on the Columbus, things to change for next time).

I went home for lunch from work today to keg a Falconer's Flight DIPA with Conan, fermented at 60f on the nose. I had a bit of a thermometer mishap, it was on the fritz for a bit, and mashed at 146f. Obviously that is not ideal and I knew I would have a dry beer, tasted it going to the keg and it was great (didnt take any notes), gravity reading 1.004!!!!

We should probably be keeping track of data like this for Conan, obviously my recent case was an extreme but it is just one more test with this yeast.

Coff said:

I mashed at 152f, and finished at 1.015, which really surprised me and slightly disappointed me at the same time. But the beer tastes great, has a slight sweetness on the back end, just too much ripe fruit (I was heavy handed on the Amarillo and light on the Columbus, things to change for next time).

I went home for lunch from work today to keg a Falconer's Flight DIPA with Conan, fermented at 60f on the nose. I had a bit of a thermometer mishap, it was on the fritz for a bit, and mashed at 146f. Obviously that is not ideal and I knew I would have a dry beer, tasted it going to the keg and it was great (didnt take any notes), gravity reading 1.004!!!!

We should probably be keeping track of data like this for Conan, obviously my recent case was an extreme but it is just one more test with this yeast.

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Wow, 1.004 is nuts. I knew it could go down below 1.010 but not that far.

I wonder, what do you think is more likely? They cold crash it at 1.014 or they under pitch? I wonder about the underpitching because the only recipe I've ever seen from Kimmich is one where he purposefully underpitches with Conan.

To me under pitching would make sense. Along the same methodology of underpitching yeast for a hefe...make it work a little harder to get that signature flavor profile. In this case the peachy/fruity flavors from Conan.

Breweries almost never crash fermenting beer without letting the yeast go full-cycle. It's a recipe for diacetyl, and a number of other potential off flavors.

They most likely control fermentability with the mash temperature.

I am going to underpitch my 1 gallon test batch today because no matter how I mess with the numbers I can't get it to 1.014 in BS, 1.011 is as high as it goes with mash adjustments. The IPA book said he does the El Jefe at 6-7 million cells/mL at 68, then on day 3 go to 72, then chill to 42 at the end of fermentation. That is 113-132 billion cells in a 5 gallon batch.

eandersen said:

To me under pitching would make sense. Along the same methodology of underpitching yeast for a hefe...make it work a little harder to get that signature flavor profile. In this case the peachy/fruity flavors from Conan.

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I think this is something to think about here.. Seriously.

If this yeast is as robust as it sounds, then underpitching it would be ideal. For one, we all need to keep in mind that this is a brewery. Not a large one, but not a small one. They do have costs, and while craft beer guys want to make the best product possible, they do things for taste, but with the idea of saving the buck as well.

Underpitching, could be one that works for this strain. It also saves money, and it's less yeast that needs to be pulled from the beer, since he doesn't filter it as well. Stressed yeast, don't reproduce as much, as easily.

The only thing I'm curious, is if it's an under pitch, and they are fermenting really low like 50.... Holy hell this yeast has to be something ridiculous to be able to chew through the sugars, and then still need to be stopped dead in it's tracks with a slow cold crash. However, cold crashing if the yeast needed to be done, that would be odd as it wouldn't be ideal.. off flavors could result from not letting it finish up, unless they are hid well with all the hops.

I still stand by the idea that they add the first dry hop when fermentation needs to be stopped.. The oily resins will get moved around for a little while in the warmer beer, and that could explain the resinous chunks of yeast and hop particulate that will join together in the tank, that eventually find their way in their cans.. seem logical?

theveganbrewer said:

I am going to underpitch my 1 gallon test batch today because no matter how I mess with the numbers I can't get it to 1.014 in BS, 1.011 is as high as it goes with mash adjustments. The IPA book said he does the El Jefe at 6-7 million cells/mL at 68, then on day 3 go to 72, then chill to 42 at the end of fermentation. That is 113-132 billion cells in a 5 gallon batch.

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I haven't payed close enough attention to this thread to remember what you are doing for this test batch, but based off your 1st clone attempt, dropping the dextrose and bumping the mash temp to around 152-154 would certainly get the beer to finish around 1.014.

I haven't had HT, so I'm just trying to help where I can from a recipe formulation standpoint.

Under-pitching is very strain specific. All things held equal: for this yeast strain, under pitching alone might not be enough to keep the beer from finishing around 1.010-1.011. (Assuming you are shooting for 1.014)

I am going to mash at 154 and will probably leave the dextrose out because the only reason I had it in there to begin with was to basically get me from 1.014 to 1.010. Without having to go that low, I also don't think I need it. I am going to ferment at 68 just to see if that + underpitching gives the peach off.

I'll post the recipe and the new hop lineup based off a few of our first clone attempts later tonight after I finish.

eandersen said:

To me under pitching would make sense. Along the same methodology of underpitching yeast for a hefe...make it work a little harder to get that signature flavor profile. In this case the peachy/fruity flavors from Conan.

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i dont think they are underpitching...i think the low ferment temp is the way they use to make the yeast work harder and not fully attenuate.

FATC1TY said:

I think this is something to think about here.. Seriously.

If this yeast is as robust as it sounds, then underpitching it would be ideal. For one, we all need to keep in mind that this is a brewery. Not a large one, but not a small one. They do have costs, and while craft beer guys want to make the best product possible, they do things for taste, but with the idea of saving the buck as well.

Underpitching, could be one that works for this strain. It also saves money, and it's less yeast that needs to be pulled from the beer, since he doesn't filter it as well. Stressed yeast, don't reproduce as much, as easily.

The only thing I'm curious, is if it's an under pitch, and they are fermenting really low like 50.... Holy hell this yeast has to be something ridiculous to be able to chew through the sugars, and then still need to be stopped dead in it's tracks with a slow cold crash. However, cold crashing if the yeast needed to be done, that would be odd as it wouldn't be ideal.. off flavors could result from not letting it finish up, unless they are hid well with all the hops.

I still stand by the idea that they add the first dry hop when fermentation needs to be stopped.. The oily resins will get moved around for a little while in the warmer beer, and that could explain the resinous chunks of yeast and hop particulate that will join together in the tank, that eventually find their way in their cans.. seem logical?

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I have to admit. At first, when I heard this underpitching theory, I was skeptical... but the Conan yeast DOES work like a monster. It absolutely crushed my EdWort's Haus Pale Ale which I fermented at 65.

Maybe it really isn't underpitching so much as this particular yeast requires far fewer cells than others, which also explains why it is very difficult to clone because who the heck would try that? (Other than us.) Maybe they have the cell count and temp figured out so that it attenuates just as they want it to, and it ends up at 1.014?

It also explains why it is called Conan, the toughest warrior to ever be born in Cimmeria!

Tomorrow, I am going to try my Conan Pale Ale and see what the esters are like, and how it merges with the Simcoe I used. Based on that, I am going to adjust my HT-inspired recipe, maybe adjust ferm. temp. and 'underpitch' as well.

I have been getting consistently +85% attentuation with Conan mashed at 149 and fermented from 59-62 with some dextrose. I don't know how much colder I could take it to slow it down. The fact that he does underpitch in his other recipe makes this plausible.

Man I've got to get some of this Conan.. I've got a lead on some cans so I should be able to get some yeast together and then I can work on contributing to the clone attempt. It would be a lot easier if we could taste each others clones but this is going surprisingly well considering. I also feel that there is more that one way to get to point A.

hey guys, i don't mean to be a skeptic but I'm not sure we can assume 1.014 is the FG since we have two documented sources that claim otherwise. The first is direct from a conversation with John (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/heady-topper-310445/index24.html#post4632120) and the other is from two hydrometer (one home-brew and one commercial) readings (http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/heady-topper-clone.7489/#post-91495)

Granted we are only looking at potentially three readings from two cans of Heady, but if I had to put my money on an FG it would be 1.010 (based on the data so far).

Is there anyone who lives in VT that could take a 4-pack (or samples from 4 different cans of Heady) and degas and measure the gravities? The only way we will know for sure is if we sample more cans.

Ok guys, I've tried to follow the threads and may have missed some things along the way but is there still some debate as to the hop bill? Has anyone thought of using summit? I know people have discussed using nugget and summit supposedly is derived from nugget. It's also said to have a tangerine, orange, grapefruit character. I know the focus is now on the dank side but I thought maybe summit may be a hop that is used.

Which goes back to my point. Say their acceptable range is 1.011 to 1.013.

Now lets say someone was reading the beer at 1.010 when it's actually 1.011. Say a recent batch was actually 1.013, and got read as 1.014; it's often pretty hard to discern 1SG point on hydrometer. See how that can happen?

Most breweries have a 1/2 Plato margin in FG. The tricky part is figuring out the range.

Now for my two cents, and what I've learned cloning beers.

A. Nail the malt bill. This is critical. It's hard to clone a beer without having the percentages right. You can miss the OG, but you need the right grist for it to taste the same.

B. Get the fermentation character correct. You guys have the right yeast, now it's just getting the temperature schedule correct.

C. Strong ferment. You need to get close to your target FG, or if not, the sugars you leave behind must match the beer you're cloning. Hoptimum is a great example. FG is like 1.018. It doesn't taste the slightest bit sweet though; just has a full mouthfeel. So if one were to clone that beer, they would have to mash warmer, and ferment strong. A lower mash temp, and a weaker ferment would yield a sweeter beer. Make sense?

D. Nail the dry hop. The boil hops are important, but the dry hops are much more critical. In a beer as hop forward as I hear Heady is, the boil hops are much less important. Assume 4-6oz dry hopped for a 6gal batch, and focus your time on getting it right. Probably multiple additions.

Finally: the pictures I've seen of HT are really cloudy. I mean, really cloudy. Not that it helps with the clone process, but their yeast is either SUPER dusty, or they need to add more kettle finings to their wort.

That's all I have to add at the moment. I'm really itching to help you guys, but I've never had HT, so I can only offer knowledge from my past experience cloning IPAs.

FYI: not sure if this has been mentioned, but the newest BYO has a clone recipe for Heady Topper. It doesn't use the Conan yeast but has a real interesting hop schedule. So, maybe inspired by HT. called Over the Topper DIPA. I have never had HT but would love to get my hands on some cans.

Subscribed.

Cold crashing wouldn't work because its "bottle" conditioned with Conan, those sugars would be consumed. Fermentation temp schedule for Belgian yeasts tend to start in the upper 50's to low 60's, ramp up, cool off to condition, then finally cold (32F or below) to crash the yeast out. Probably where some of the low temps are coming from.

scottland said:

C. Strong ferment. You need to get close to your target FG, or if not, the sugars you leave behind must match the beer you're cloning. Hoptimum is a great example. FG is like 1.018. It doesn't taste the slightest bit sweet though; just has a full mouthfeel. So if one were to clone that beer, they would have to mash warmer, and ferment strong. A lower mash temp, and a weaker ferment would yield a sweeter beer. Make sense?

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Good job, Scott. I think the above point really needed reminding. HT has a light to medium body. Any body in the beer is presumably due to a lot of suspended hop matter and unfiltered yeast as well as a very minimal amount of added dextrins. This is a dry beer that has been reported to be 1.010 FG on multiple occasions, even by the brewer himself. It has also been tested to be 1.010 FG aside from one occassion. HT has a perceived sweetness from the fruitiness of its yeast and the abundance of late hops used, not from a higher FG. From what I've gathered so far, my guess would be a long mash in the upper 140's with no simple sugar addition. Conan seems like it doesn't need any help from sugar to reach 84-85% attenuation. Our next step is to come to a conclusion on the fermentation temperature. Low or high, or both at different stages?

georgebe4 said:

Cold crashing wouldn't work because its "bottle" conditioned with Conan, those sugars would be consumed. Fermentation temp schedule for Belgian yeasts tend to start in the upper 50's to low 60's, ramp up, cool off to condition, then finally cold (32F or below) to crash the yeast out. Probably where some of the low temps are coming from.

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HT is bottle conditioned?

No it is not.

EyePeeA said:

HT has a perceived sweetness from the fruitiness of its yeast and the abundance of late hops used, not from a higher FG.

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This was the assumption at the beginning of the thread, but a few of us are beginning to think differently. No need to be argumentative. You try yours, we'll try ours, and report results.

libeerty said:

This was the assumption at the beginning of the thread, but a few of us are beginning to think differently. No need to be argumentative. You try yours, we'll try ours, and report results.

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I was simply agreeing with Scott's advice and providing reasoning as to why. 1.010 vs. 1.014 does not always mean the latter beer will be sweeter. It has to do more with body. Scott explained this rather well. I don't see the need of calling me argumentative simply for pointing out obvious facts.

EyePeeA said:

I was simply agreeing with Scott's advice and providing reasoning as to why. 1.010 vs. 1.014 does not always mean the latter beer will be sweeter. It has to do more with body. Scott explained this rather well. I don't see the need of calling me out as argumentative for pointing out obvious facts.

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Scott was contributing, but, c'mon, you were clearly needling, but there is a nice little feature on HBT that allows me to block you, so I will do that, and save myself the time and energy.