Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

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Which goes back to my point. Say their acceptable range is 1.011 to 1.013.

Now lets say someone was reading the beer at 1.010 when it's actually 1.011. Say a recent batch was actually 1.013, and got read as 1.014; it's often pretty hard to discern 1SG point on hydrometer. See how that can happen?

Most breweries have a 1/2 Plato margin in FG. The tricky part is figuring out the range.

Now for my two cents, and what I've learned cloning beers.

A. Nail the malt bill. This is critical. It's hard to clone a beer without having the percentages right. You can miss the OG, but you need the right grist for it to taste the same.

B. Get the fermentation character correct. You guys have the right yeast, now it's just getting the temperature schedule correct.

C. Strong ferment. You need to get close to your target FG, or if not, the sugars you leave behind must match the beer you're cloning. Hoptimum is a great example. FG is like 1.018. It doesn't taste the slightest bit sweet though; just has a full mouthfeel. So if one were to clone that beer, they would have to mash warmer, and ferment strong. A lower mash temp, and a weaker ferment would yield a sweeter beer. Make sense?

D. Nail the dry hop. The boil hops are important, but the dry hops are much more critical. In a beer as hop forward as I hear Heady is, the boil hops are much less important. Assume 4-6oz dry hopped for a 6gal batch, and focus your time on getting it right. Probably multiple additions.

Finally: the pictures I've seen of HT are really cloudy. I mean, really cloudy. Not that it helps with the clone process, but their yeast is either SUPER dusty, or they need to add more kettle finings to their wort.

That's all I have to add at the moment. I'm really itching to help you guys, but I've never had HT, so I can only offer knowledge from my past experience cloning IPAs.

This is a great post, A,C, and D are especially import imo.

Imo, we should be targeting a 1.012 FG give our take a point or 2 and we will be right in the ball park. But the Dry hop is whats making this beer, as has been discussed, based on my last attempt and being to heavy handed on the Amarillo I think I can resolve it all in the dry hop. Last time the 2 5 day dry hops were an ounce each of Amarillo, Centennial, and Simcoe. Next time I am going to try 2 separate 5 day dry hops of this bill .5 Amarillo, .5 Centennial, 1 Columbus, 1.5 Simcoe. thoughts?
 
Finally managed to get some Conan going from my last can. Unfortunately I only have this 1L flask, so I don't know if I'll be able to go beyond the first step-up of 500ml without causing any problems. If anybody has advice on how to proceed, in a safe way, please let me know.

Going to get some canning jars today to save what I have after day 3 of this step.

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Let it ferment out, crash cool in the fridge, pour off the spent wort and add more fresh wort=profit
 
That's what I initially had planned on, but doesn't the ratio of wort to yeast have a negative impact and/or cause stress somehow, or would it not really matter at this scale?

Since I'm at 500ml now, would 750ml and 4oz of DME be an appropriate ratio after I crash and decant? Feel free to PM me, as this is probably going too far off topic.
 
That's what I initially had planned on, but doesn't the ratio of wort to yeast have a negative impact and/or cause stress somehow, or would it not really matter at this scale?

Since I'm at 500ml now, would 750ml and 4oz of DME be an appropriate ratio after I crash and decant? Feel free to PM me, as this is probably going too far off topic.

I have read that commercial breweries step up yeast at a rate of 10:1. So you would take a 1L starter and pitch the yeast into 10L of fresh wort. On a homebrew scale, this is rather unpracticle. The point is, I think you have a lot of room to work with on wort:yeast.
 
Right on, thanks guys. I initially stepped up from 100ml - 500ml, so I see what you mean. Will post results. I just threw 4oz randomly out there, don't even know why :p This current step is 500ml with 1.75oz, so 4 is clearly too high.

Planning on using some with an inexpensive smash pale ale or this to see how it works at ~63 ambient.
 
this is kind of an odd question, but for you guys that buy HT up in vermont, how much is it for a 4 pack or a 24 pack? Im not asking to have someone send me any, im just curious about the price.

thanks
 
So going along with what's been discussed. I can see scottland's point of the .5 plato difference. I brew at a craft brewery and our ale's almost always hit our desired FG, but if there is any difference it is always within .5 plato. Though I'm not disputing the FG is actually 1.014, I would like to see someone else degas and measure a sample of fresh heady. The idea of some anonymous deep throat inside the Alchemist guiding vegan in the right direction makes me skeptical...though it's not impossible.

I do not agree under-pitching/crash cooling is the way to go. You are leaving unfermented fermentables in your beer, and they will be quite sweet - and the sweetness I get out of heady is slight - easily attributed to a specialty grain (my guess is honey malt). IMHO the key to a great tasting quality beer is for it to be fully attenuated. Adjusting where that actually is can be easily manipulated with your mash temperature. I did a pale ale with my heady yeast, mashed at 156, fermented at 62, and it went from 1.055 to 1.011...getting it to finish at 1.014 from 1.075 seems extremely plausible if you mash high enough.
 
this is kind of an odd question, but for you guys that buy HT up in vermont, how much is it for a 4 pack or a 24 pack? Im not asking to have someone send me any, im just curious about the price.

thanks

I am pretty sure a case was $80, which would put a 4 pack in the 13-14$ range.
 
Looks like my friend charged me an $8 premium for driving up there and getting me a case. Doesn't bother me.
 
If anyone is going to degas and you have a normal hydrometer, you'll only need just shy of 4 ounces of Heady to test.

On my 1-gallon batch I did this recipe (Scaled)

98% Pearl
2% Caravienne

Mashed at 155 for 60 minutes

100IBU hopshot @60 minutes

5 minute addition- 1 ounce of Simcoe
2 min addition- 0.5 Amarillo, 0.25 each of Centennial, Columbus, Nugget, Chinook

Whirlpool (30 minutes from 180-160)- 3 ounces simcoe, 1 ounce Amarillo, 0.5 each of Centennial, Columbus, Nugget, Chinook

Underpitched at 7 million cells per mL (Pitch rate would be around 135 billion cells for 5 gallon batch)

Fermenting at 66.

Dryhop is 3:1:0.5 Simcoe, Amarillo, Columbus

I wanted to test the higher OG/FG, higher mash temp, and the addition of Amarillo. I got rid of Cascade and took the Chinook out of the dry hop. Prior attempts were a bit too floral/flowery for me. My few attempts at a clone I have been happy with my Simcoe levels which have all been similar to what is in the recipe above. a 3:1 Simcoe to XXX hop seems close to me. Columbus has been confirmed to be in the dry hop too BTW.
 
Columbus has been confirmed to be in the dry hop too BTW.

I have been thinking this was the case, but where are you confirming this from? Are you emailing Kimmich and he is giving you info in drips and drabs or something? I mean, you havent mislead us at all throughout the 2 threads so I trust your source of info but just curious how youre confirming these things.
 
I have been thinking this was the case, but where are you confirming this from? Are you emailing Kimmich and he is giving you info in drips and drabs or something? I mean, you havent mislead us at all throughout the 2 threads so I trust your source of info but just curious how youre confirming these things.

Yes
 
If anyone is going to degas and you have a normal hydrometer, you'll only need just shy of 4 ounces of Heady to test.

On my 1-gallon batch I did this recipe (Scaled)

98% Pearl
2% Caravienne

Mashed at 155 for 60 minutes

100IBU hopshot @60 minutes

5 minute addition- 1 ounce of Simcoe
2 min addition- 0.5 Amarillo, 0.25 each of Centennial, Columbus, Nugget, Chinook

Whirlpool (30 minutes from 180-160)- 3 ounces simcoe, 1 ounce Amarillo, 0.5 each of Centennial, Columbus, Nugget, Chinook

Underpitched at 7 million cells per mL (Pitch rate would be around 135 billion cells for 5 gallon batch)

Fermenting at 66.

Dryhop is 3:1:0.5 Simcoe, Amarillo, Columbus

I wanted to test the higher OG/FG, higher mash temp, and the addition of Amarillo. I got rid of Cascade and took the Chinook out of the dry hop. Prior attempts were a bit too floral/flowery for me. My few attempts at a clone I have been happy with my Simcoe levels which have all been similar to what is in the recipe above. a 3:1 Simcoe to XXX hop seems close to me. Columbus has been confirmed to be in the dry hop too BTW.


do you mean that scaled to 5 gal you used that many oz of hops, or that is directly what you put in?


Also, sorry to rouse it again, but my scientific self cant just accept "columbus has been confirmed" without some sort of background or something. not questioning or attacking, just suggesting that a statement of your source of data would make the info more reliable. again, not trying to be rude or mean.
 
do you mean that scaled to 5 gal you used that many oz of hops, or that is directly what you put in?


Also, sorry to rouse it again, but my scientific self cant just accept "columbus has been confirmed" without some sort of background or something. not questioning or attacking, just suggesting that a statement of your source of data would make the info more reliable. again, not trying to be rude or mean.

That's the 5-gallon equivalent. My recipe was scaled down to 1 gallon from that. My statement was made above on the source.
 
do you mean that scaled to 5 gal you used that many oz of hops, or that is directly what you put in?


Also, sorry to rouse it again, but my scientific self cant just accept "columbus has been confirmed" without some sort of background or something. not questioning or attacking, just suggesting that a statement of your source of data would make the info more reliable. again, not trying to be rude or mean.

Its seems to me that Vegan does not want to burn a bridge with whomever his source of info is, but if you read between the lines of post #181 in his response to my speculation you will under stand that THE source is credible.
 
That's the 5-gallon equivalent. My recipe was scaled down to 1 gallon from that. My statement was made above on the source.

gotcha, sorry missed the post like 2 above mine.

anyways, yeah i was a little shocked at first i thought you mean 15oz simcoe. a bit extreme!
 
Just tossing out a thought here...

We're struggling to find the piney, yet citrusy note, from a hop that lends some strong bitter notes..

With the... "ideas" that Alchemist might use some other strange hop to round out there 6 hops.. What about this..

Saw it on the Palmer Hop wheel, and actually hadn't heard of it before.

Super Alpha, from NZ.. described as an herbal piney citrusy lemongrass.

Interesting, and it's been around since the mid 70's.

I'm sure it's not likely, but... are we positive they use American hops, and extract only?
I'm just trying to think outside the box here a bit. Much like the Amarillo debate. I think it's in there, but really low amounts, since it's so potent. I think the backdrop of the peachy citrus note that we all get is from the yeast helping the Amarillo, and the candy citrus from the Centennial. Past that, the Simcoe and Chinook along with the Columbus start beatin the door down with the pine trees.
 
Pretty sure it's all American hops here. But, wouldn't hurt for someone visiting the brewery to ask. Might not be the 6 we're thinking though. Some things that could also be a possibility. When they claim their proprietary blend of 6 hops, that could just be hop extract with 6 hops in it, and they might only be using 3 hops in the rest of the process. I know that at least Simcoe and Columbus are used from 5 minutes all the way through to the dryhop. Other than that, not sure if there are 6 hops all the way, or just a few.
 
Pretty sure it's all American hops here. But, wouldn't hurt for someone visiting the brewery to ask. Might not be the 6 we're thinking though. Some things that could also be a possibility. When they claim their proprietary blend of 6 hops, that could just be hop extract with 6 hops in it, and they might only be using 3 hops in the rest of the process. I know that at least Simcoe and Columbus are used from 5 minutes all the way through to the dryhop. Other than that, not sure if there are 6 hops all the way, or just a few.

This is what I've been thinking too. The 6 hops could be anywhere. I could see the argument for a solid 4 after bittering(Columbus,Simcoe,Centennial,Amarillo) I'm thinking Chinook and Warrior as well.

My Pliny clone I just kegged has a distinct pineapple citrusy smell with just columbus,Simcoe,Centennial, but not the dankness. The "Hop Shot" for bittering could consist of a couple different hops.
 
Make sure you drink it with a dip in too.

That'll help with the flavoring(s) too.

@vegan---I thank you for what you are doing for us.
I would love to get ahold of some Conan to brew with. My process is WAYWAYWAY less dialed in than you other brewers, but I want to try...

Are you able to send it out?
PM sent.
 
We have gone through 6 cases of Heady in this house since Christmas. I have read, and re read both threads multiple times. I have Conan ready and waiting... I am ready to brew. I am using Vegan's recipe and his tasting notes as a guide. But adjusted the grain bill slightly for my taste and inefficient brewing system. I also couldn't get any Hopshots, so I'll add 1.5oz of Simcoe @60 minutes. Does that sound about right?

-Mike
 
We have gone through 6 cases of Heady in this house since Christmas. I have read, and re read both threads multiple times. I have Conan ready and waiting... I am ready to brew. I am using Vegan's recipe and his tasting notes as a guide. But adjusted the grain bill slightly for my taste and inefficient brewing system. I also couldn't get any Hopshots, so I'll add 1.5oz of Simcoe @60 minutes. Does that sound about right?

-Mike

I'd save the Simcoe instead of using it for a bittering addition.

I'd honestly use something like CTZ or Warrior or hell.. Magnum would work for a clean bitter.. Because thats ALL your getting from it.

As for the hops situation.. I'm wondering if it's a play on words.. 6 hops.. 6 hops in the extract? 6 hops total in the beer, with 2-3 consisting of just the bittering addition in the extract?

I mean, it's all up to the way you interpret it.

I know, that Simcoe, Chinook, Columbus, Centennial and more than likely Amarillo, HAVE to be in there.. somewhere.. late, early, or whatever. I'm thinking there needs to be a very earthy piney hop to go in there, since everyone is getting nothing but fruit.

I just did an IPA that I wanted to try getting more pine and dirt than citrus. I got that with Simcoe and Chinook, but REALLY took it overboard when I dry hopped it with Comet. Weed, Pine bark, and dirt.. with a melon after note. Odd, I know.
 
Hop extract usually isn't varietal specific. CTZ, Nugget, Horizon, Apollo, Bravo, Summit, Galena, Super Galena, etc all find their way into it. I think something like 30% of the US hop crop get's slated for extract. CTZ being the highest %.

They do make varietal specific extracts though, so it's possible Alchemist is using one of those. Stone uses Super Galena extract. I know Vinnie uses Amarillo extract in a couple beers.

Personally, I would assume Hop extract = 1 variety, and there are 5 other hops present.
 
Imo if youre not using hop shot you should be using Warrior or Magnum, if you use Simcoe to bitter you'll be throwing off the clone attempt a bit. I used Magnum in mine and the bitterness is close.
 
The idea of them using a NZ blend hop extract seemed like a good possibility... along with 6 actual American hops for late and dryhop additions. I think the person who found the NZ hop extract said it was a blend of Super Alpha, Green Bullet, Pacific Gem, and Southern Cross. You can get away with saying there are 6 actual American hops used in the beer, and exclude those NZ hops present in the extract. Kimmich is using British malt, American late hops, a private hybrid yeast strain with a supposedly very low fermentation temp... so it wouldn't be far fetched to claim that NZ hop extract makes its way into the early boil.
 
The question is. Extract is extract. It's there to bitter and only bitter. Does the nz extract cost less or easier to get than American. Keep that in mind. It's gotta be cost effective for them to use first and foremost. It's a business not a hobby.

Also, what about crystal hops in the mix. They are a major aroma hop. Woodsy spice and floral. Hrmm
 
The question is. Extract is extract. It's there to bitter and only bitter.

I disagree. Pliny bittered with Magnum, Citra, or Pacific Gem vs. CTZ would be a vastly different beer. Flavor is certainly a factor with every hop addition... especially if you're using a lot of early hops to attain the bulk of your IBUs. The intensity and overall character is different, but bittering hops are not simply providing a blank slate of flavorless IBUs.
 
Ill agree with that to some degree. In a beer highly hopped late for flavor and aroma i am seriously doubting the overall flavor is changed enough by the bittering addition to be noticed at all.

In a simple ipa. I can taste the slightest difference in a beer I use magnum and a beer I bitter with the same hop used in flavor and aroma. I'm putting 5 or so ounces of total hops in there. Not a huge quantity by any means to dilute the whole process like we are here.
 

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