Homebrewing cost effectiveness

Williams 728
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Like any hobby you can spend as little or as much as you would like. I batch sparge withan old cooler and have only spent a couple hundred dollars on equipment. I buy hops in bulk and two row in bulk. So right now I believe I am saving money. However I am really enjoying this hobby and want to spend more time and money on brewing which is wereit can get more pricey.
 
My brother has asked me twice, since I started this a few weeks ago, about cost savings. In the long run, I'll definitely save, just because I always buy more expensive beers. But I know I'll still buy some beer so its moot anyway. I'm just doing this because its fun!
 
Channel66 said:
I missed out on that big Powerball jackpot because I was brewing. So thats what -560 some million?
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You forgot to add the cost of the gas to run your vehicle for the couple miles to the convenience store. And, the cost of insurance for that 10 minute drive. Plus, the cost of clothes - can't go to the store naked!
 
AZ_IPA said:
You forgot to add the cost of the gas to run your vehicle for the couple miles to the convenience store. And, the cost of insurance for that 10 minute drive. Plus, the cost of clothes - can't go to the store naked!
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Cost for gas to go to the store to get said clothes, time spent asking if you look fabulous enough in front of the dressing room mirror,
 
AZ_IPA said:
You forgot to add the cost of the gas to run your vehicle for the couple miles to the convenience store. And, the cost of insurance for that 10 minute drive. Plus, the cost of clothes - can't go to the store naked!
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That's why I brew naked whenever I can. Wait....cost of citation for indecent exposure? Demmit! :fro:
 
LOL, with only one batch in bottles and a second in the primary.... Including equipment amortization figured in to bottles of beer produced, and propane and electricity costs est.... Im at about $8.52 per bottle so far...

But Im MAKING beer.. to me that bit of entertainment and creativity makes it cost effective.
 
Warthaug said:
For some homebrewers, saving money could very well be the name of the game. Indeed, when I started 16 years ago I began brewing for the explicit purpose of getting my uni friends and I as drunk as possible for as cheap as possible. And we saved a lot.
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Saying "it's a hobby so time doesn't count" only applies until you claim to save money. After that, time equated to a dollar value. Your desire, need or ability to capitalize on that time is no longer important. Convincing you that loosing less money is saving money is the goal of every marketing scheme. Don’t fall for it.
 
broadbill said:
You, me, and all the rest of you have a finite amount of time in this life. Therefore every minute has value. To say that time only has value if you are working is only correct if you consider money to be the sole indicator of value.
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In that case, if you enjoy brewing, wouldn't that be a net decrease in the cost of brewing over doing something like say, watching TV.

Hey, has anybody factored in their time they spend on the Homebrewtalk forum?
 
broadbill said:
You shouldn't care...my post was in reference to the argument that you can brew something cheaper than what you can buy it for. That only works if you "stack" the comparison by comparing your production cost with their retail price. To be fair, it should be production cost to production cost, taking into account all of the things they have to pay for to bring beer to you.
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Umm, I'm not following you.

*No-one* says they can make beer for cheaper than a brewery can. (Well, I suppose an *idiot* might. But he'd be wrong. Brewries are bigger and thus *magnitudes* more efficient than we'll ever be.)

The only thing anyone said is that the can make beer for less than they'd pay a store for. Of *course* this is stacking comparison of our production to retail. So what? That was they*entire* purpose of the statement. The statement was (right or wrong) "I can save money by providing only production cost of making my beer rather than paying the retail price of a similar beer from a store".

And this is the only thing anyone *cares* about. Who cares if they can make a beer cheaper or more expensive then a brewery does? Is some-one passing out prizes. The only question is "Can I save money by only paying the production cost by making it myself".


This stacked comparison is only "unfair" if the statement were claiming anything other than the outcome of a stacked comparison.
 
Something that I haven't seen mentioned yet (although I may have missed it) is that nobody is taking into consideration the amount of beer that they're going to share by home-brewing that they normally wouldn't.

I'm not far into the hobby but I'd say I've gotten to drink about half of each batch. So I'm giving away half of it. If I went to the store and bought beer sure I would share it too, but for some odd reason people tend to think that because you're brewing it yourself it doesn't cost money. If I had bought enough commercial beer to feed myself and 2 friends for a session, they'd all likely chip in or return the favor on another night. With homebrew it oddly seems to be different - people chip in less or not at all. And because I'm now the homebrewer, I'm the guy likely to have bulk quantities of beer on hand.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to share it and take pride when people say, 'wow, this is really good', but if we're talking costs here... my cost per batch in ingredients alone pretty much doubles due to sharing.
 
sixpacks are $10
single bombers are $5-$6
A pint at a pub is $7
A keg of Sam Adams is $170

it doesn't take long for a several hundred dollars worth of equipment to pay for itself.
 
What we're really trying to measure here isn't the actual price of ingredients and equipment versus the price of commercial beer; in the long run, the real differences there are negligible. What we really need to be measuring are opportunity cost versus intangible benefit. That is to say, do we get as much or more out of the hobby in terms of personal satisfaction than we expend in time, money, and effort, than we would using that time etc. in some other pursuit? No one but you can answer that for you, but if you are in something as a hobby, it's a good guess that intangible benefits are the real payoff, not dollars and cents.
 
Schol-R-LEA said:
...it's a good guess that intangible benefits are the real payoff, not dollars and cents.
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Can we have an "AMEN" from the Choir??? Was that very first bottle of homebrew worth the cost of the equipment which was purchased to brew it? Of course not. But the enjoyment and satisfaction I got out of my very first bottle of homebrew was worth every penny. And you can't measure intangibles!

glenn514:mug:
 
AnOldUR said:
Saying "it's a hobby so time doesn't count" only applies until you claim to save money. After that, time equated to money.
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But you would have to compare that to the value of what you would have done with the same block of time. I.E. I brew on weekends, or late at night, when my income (ignoring that I'm on salary) is $0/hour. None of my other hobbies produce anything with a dollar value, and I do chores during the mash/boil, so little is lost there.

So what dollar value do I attach to my brewing day?

Bryan
 
woozy said:
Umm, I'm not following you.

*No-one* says they can make beer for cheaper than a brewery can. (Well, I suppose an *idiot* might. But he'd be wrong. Brewries are bigger and thus *magnitudes* more efficient than we'll ever be.)

The only thing anyone said is that the can make beer for less than they'd pay a store for. Of *course* this is stacking comparison of our production to retail. So what? That was they*entire* purpose of the statement. The statement was (right or wrong) "I can save money by providing only production cost of making my beer rather than paying the retail price of a similar beer from a store".

And this is the only thing anyone *cares* about. Who cares if they can make a beer cheaper or more expensive then a brewery does? Is some-one passing out prizes. The only question is "Can I save money by only paying the production cost by making it myself".


This stacked comparison is only "unfair" if the statement were claiming anything other than the outcome of a stacked comparison.
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The reason that someone can make beer cheaper than what they pay for it is because they don't account for the value of their time (and possibly their equipment) in producing said beer. That was my only point.

Not sure why you keep harping on the "why do you care?" point. I think its obvious that I DON'T care: like others I do this because I enjoy it.
 
Warthaug said:
But you would have to compare that to the value of what you would have done with the same block of time. I.E. I brew on weekends, or late at night, when my income (ignoring that I'm on salary) is $0/hour. None of my other hobbies produce anything with a dollar value, and I do chores during the mash/boil, so little is lost there.

So what dollar value do I attach to my brewing day?

Bryan
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Again, this argument only works if you consider money as the only indicator of value.

Just like I have a finite amount of hours in my life to live, I have a finite number of hours in a weekend with which I have to get things I need or want to get done. If I'm brewing I cannot do something else. That is why time has inherent value beyond the dollars get paid for doing my job.

Speaking of finite time, I think my time is better spent on other pursuits than arguing on the internet!:)
 
How about this, the price of beer increases due to the fact that we make exactly what we want (or at least try to). How much is a beer worth that was brew by me, using hops picked straight from my bines in the back yard? You can't buy that, it's like grandmas dinner rolls, the secrete ingredient was her.
 
It's probably possible to homebrew to save money if you are really careful and already own/can borrow some of the equipment you need.
However, you are more likely not going to save money (and probably spend much, much more) and if saving money on beer is why you are into this hobby, you might consider finding something cheaper to do.
 
Warthaug said:
So what dollar value do I attach to my brewing day?
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You're doing the work a professional brewer would do for free. That's your choice. You do it because you enjoy it. Taking that value out of the equation might make you feel better, but it has no place in calculating the economics of brewing.

It’s a hobby. Just leave it at that and don’t try to convince yourself or others that you save money.
 
broadbill said:
Again, this argument only works if you consider money as the only indicator of value.
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The whole discussion has focused on the cost of brewing, hence the focus on dollar value.

broadbill said:
If I'm brewing I cannot do something else. That is why time has inherent value beyond the dollars get paid for doing my job.
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I agree with the latter, but not with the former - I get a lot done during brewing. Usually its chores like mowing the lawn (or, far too often, shovelling the snow) or laundry. Sometimes its easy stuff like catching up on recorded TV shows. Last brew day it was refinishing an antique desk. Mash/boil/cooling time = time when I do other stuff. YMMV.

As for the latter, I again ask what is the value of the time? If you're going to argue that you're not saving money by home brewing because of 'lost time' than you must have a specific dollar value attached to that time. In my case, I'd have to value my time at ~$21.50 per hour (on a 5gal batch) to reduce my savings to the break-even point. If doing a 10gal batch, that gets upto ~$36/hr.

Bryan
 
Warthaug said:
I get a lot done during brewing.
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So, you'll be giving your boss back the money from the time spent on HBT during the work day.



Warthaug said:
I again ask what is the value of the time?
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And again I'll tell you that it is what ever the average professional would be paid for the same task. Your willingness to do it free doesn't change its value.
 
AnOldUR said:
And again I'll tell you that it is what ever the average professional would be paid for the same task. Your willingness to do it free doesn't change its value.
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I bill by the hour at my business, so it's fairly easy for me to tell you the cost of my my time not spent working. I assure you that it is MUCH more economical for me to buy beer than to make it.

But that's not the point of it. As already pointed out, it's a hobby and I enjoy it. It's not healthy to work every waking moment of one's life.
 
AnOldUR said:
So, you'll be giving your boss back the money from the time spent on HBT during the work day.



And again I'll tell you that it is what ever the average professional would be paid for the same task. Your willingness to do it free doesn't change its value.
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Huh? This makes no sense to me... there's one pretty big difference between a professional brewer and a homebrewer.

The pro SELLS the beer.

Are you trying to say that we should count the labor cost of a pro brewer in to the cost of homebrewing? Sure, I'm fine with that - under one condition - the laws are changed so I can sell my beer from my garage.
 
AnOldUR said:
So, you'll be giving your boss back the money from the time spent on HBT during the work day.
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I am the boss...so sure, I'll pay myself back. But even bosses get coffee breaks.

AnOldUR said:
And again I'll tell you that it is what ever the average professional would be paid for the same task. Your willingness to do it free doesn't change its value.
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My sole experience with commercial brewing (friends who opened up a micro) would suggest that the average brewhouse worker doesn't earn that much.

EDIT: and I'm not convinced this is the correct comparison. I'm not a pro brewer, so why would we quantify the value of my time based on that. I cycle a lot - should I be evaluating the "value" of that time based on lance armstrongs hourly earnings?

Bryan
 
evrose said:
Huh? This makes no sense to me... there's one pretty big difference between a professional brewer and a homebrewer.

The pro SELLS the beer.

Are you trying to say that we should count the labor cost of a pro brewer in to the cost of homebrewing? Sure, I'm fine with that - under one condition - the laws are changed so I can sell my beer from my garage.
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You missed the point. The point we are discussing is what sort of cost do we assign to the process of homebrewing beer. The idea here is that you could a pro-brewers hourly salary as an estimate. Its not about whether you can sell the beer or not.
 
IMHO If we, and those before us didn't brew. We wouldn't have the craft beer choices we enjoy today. We would all still be having BMC. What is the value or cost of taste, flavor and aroma? Somethings just have to be done. Its BEER for beer sake! If there ever was a "new age" of something, then it has to be the new age of beer. We are in the middle of it. So enjoy it, cost be damned. Full steam beer ahead. RDWAHAHB
 
Warthaug said:
I am the boss...so sure, I'll pay myself back.
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Let me put it a different way. If you're in business to make money, you don't discount your customer because you have the ability to multitask.


Warthaug said:
I cycle a lot - should I be evaluating the "value" of that time based on lance armstrongs hourly earnings?
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I say "what the average professional would be paid for the same task" which could be the guy cleaning the mash tun. You jump to what Sam Calagione salary is? Bizarre!

But yes, if you're claiming to save/make money by cycling, your time value is equal to what someone with your biking skill could earn.



evrose said:
Are you trying to say that we should count the labor cost of a pro brewer in to the cost of homebrewing?
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Only if your crazy enough to claim that you're saving money by homebrewing. Otherwise it's just a hobby. Something you do for the love of it.
 
Look at it this way. We live in an age that most people can't do anything on their own. Most men can't even change their oil or rotate their tires. Most women can't bake a cake unless it comes out of a box. You can do something most can't do. You can make beer!

And if you can make good beer and you know how to fish, you are king of the world!
 
All this talk of how much time is worth seems a bit odd to me. I'm a freelancer, so I'm paid by the hour.

I get paid to do my work for others. Because I am providing a service to someone, I am selling them my free time, effectively. So yes, that means I value an hour of my work at $X.

However, that doesn't mean an hour of my time is worth $X. I'm a graphic designer, so one hour of graphic design work is worth $X. If a friend told me their toilet broke and they'd pay me to fix it, I wouldn't be able to charge them the same price, because it's not something I'm an expert in. I'd charge them $Y per hour instead.

So what is one hour of my time actually worth? It's 100% abitrary and depends completely on what I am doing. Now, if I could be working, but instead decide to brew beer, then I'm loosing $X/hour. If I don't have any work that needs to be done and I decide to brew, I'm not losing anything on an hourly rate, it isn't costing me anything. If anything, it's providing me with another type of value, since I enjoy doing it.

Do you ever ask yourself how much your time is worth when you're playing with your kids or out on a date with SWMBO? What about when you're at the bar drinking with your buddies?
 
"However, that doesn't mean an hour of my time is worth $X. I'm a graphic designer, so one hour of graphic design work is worth $X. If a friend told me their toilet broke and they'd pay me to fix it, I wouldn't be able to charge them the same price, because it's not something I'm an expert in. I'd charge them $Y per hour instead. "

The rationale is that the hour spent fixing the toilet is that it's an hour *not* doing graphic design. Thus it is worth X to you because you *could* be doing graphic design instead. Thus, according to economics 101, it's more economical for a high-paid doctor to hire a lower paid gardener even though she, the doctor, might be a better gardener than the professional.

Or so the argument goes. Considering none of us are automotons who would be willing to and would choose to work and earn money 24 hours a day, what we do in our spare time when we have decided that for whatever reason we will simply *not* be working, it doesn't seem to have much relevance. Well, except in the sense of "Fix your toilet? Are you kidding? I work like a dog and my spare time is minimal and precious and I'm not going to *squander* it on fixing your toilet!" but that's another issue.

{Actually the *spare* time of a janitor who works 70 hours a week at two jobs to make a mortgage is worth *more* than the spare time of a well-paid doctor because he has so much less of it.}

But any rate we aren't actually talking about being economical. We're talking about spending less money. Which is probably why this subject is heated; It's an emotional and time investment that the disparity between the economics[*] of homebrewing vs. the saving money of homebrewing are so great and vast that we find the question annoying and misleading.


[*] Economics, in its most abstract sense, *can* calculate the economics of enjoyment and hobbies and leisure and happiness. However in doing so the economics of homebrewing have very little to do with the acquiring of beer for drinking. Thus we probably *can* extract just what we are putting into homebrewing for the purpose of having a beer to drink vs. what we are putting into forking over cash at a store for the purpose of having a beer to drink. But the extraction is *so* abstract and the results are *so* unimportant and there is so much more to why we homebrew that the question "gee, do you save money" just becomes galling as hell.
 
broadbill said:
Again, this argument only works if you consider money as the only indicator of value.

Just like I have a finite amount of hours in my life to live, I have a finite number of hours in a weekend with which I have to get things I need or want to get done. If I'm brewing I cannot do something else. That is why time has inherent value beyond the dollars get paid for doing my job.

Speaking of finite time, I think my time is better spent on other pursuits than arguing on the internet!:)
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But I think that's what the OP is getting at here cost as a monetary number, not "Value" over all. It's like saying I can't save money by mowing my own lawn every week. I bought my mower for $50 in a garage sale, it does take me about an hour to mow my lawn, I hate it, and I spend about $1.50 in gas to get it done. Compare that to $40/week to have it mowed by someone else, you'd be a fool to say I wasn't saving money mowing my own lawn. Value is a completely separate entity all it's own. I squeeze the mowing in when I can and I value that $35 or so a week that I am saving more than I value that hour of free time. Either way, I'm still saving money. But, I hate mowing so much, in the end, it would be a better value to spend $40/week and save that time to do something else. My wife on the other hand thinks the savings by far outweighs the time. Add that up over a year though and you are looking at about a $1000/year (quick figure I threw together, in the midwest you only mow for about half the year)

Strictly speaking, there is no doubt you can save money home brewing, if you are strictly a craft beer drinker. If your goal was to brew cheap decent tasting beer, I think it's quite possible to do it, without factoring in your time. Sometimes you spend time to save money, it's just the way life works.

Value really is a little different and I think that's what too many people get focused on in these arguments. If the question is strictly, "Can you save money by brewing your own beer?" Then I believe that yes, you can save money brewing your own beer. There are though, a lot of other factors that go into the true "Value" of brewing that beer. What kind of beer, how good of beer, is it better than Natty Light, which is pretty cheap itself? but from a craft beer standpoint, I believe that you can save money.

Now, with that being said, I don't believe the true enjoyment of this hobby has anything to do wtih saving money. As others have said, most of us that are into the hobby, spend money hand over fist for it. I consider it a lot like flying Model airplanes. You are constantly spending money to improve your experience and you are constantly working on your equipment to improve, repair it. But, the real enjoyment over all, is far more valuable than any money you actually spend. It's not about saving money, that's doing it wrong, it's being able to spend enough money to do and experience something you really enjoy.
 
woozy said:
"
{Actually the *spare* time of a janitor who works 70 hours a week at two jobs to make a mortgage is worth *more* than the spare time of a well-paid doctor because he has so much less of it.}
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As a doctor, I would vehemently disagree with the notion that I have more "spare time". Have you seen the hours that a resident or a surgeon works? Even clinic based primary care docs put in a lot of hours.

Do you think docs don't have mortgages, car payments, kids to put through college? How about student loans, which are commonly as much as a mortgage...? Look, I'm not saying we are poor, but make no mistake, we WORK for our money. And mistakes result in dead patients.

Sorry to take this OT... carry on.
 
The trick to this whole thing is that you either engage the question of cost as a true equation or quit while you're ahead and say it doesn't matter. Just don't try to mix the two together. If it's a true equation, then you'll come up with NO, homebrewing is not the way to get cheap beer if you don't factor in the enjoyment of it as a hobby. If you find that you actually enjoy homebrewing (if you're reading this then that's probably you), the answer is "It doesn't matter". Anything you do to minimize batch cost is just noise and it won't affect your decision to homebrew unless you're having financial problems at the moment.

I do enjoy that this question comes up often and that people get pretty heated up about it. All it really does is highlight how little people know about economics AND how much people enjoy brewing.
 

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