Need help trouble shooting my problem - Lots of info.

Hello, I will be starting a second batch of cider next week and can’t figure out what went wrong with my first and I’m concern I could make the same mistake again! Can anybody help me identify what went wrong?

My problem: Cider never cleared and taste bad with a buttery feel in mouth.

- Started in April of this year using unpasteurized cider.
- Fermented to complete dryness
- Used Lalvin KIV-1116
- Used Bentonite while still in fermentation
- Racked 3 times
- Used Pectin enzyme before fermentation
- Used Camden tablets before fermentation (1 per gallon)
- Used sparkaloid after fermentation

Possible side effect of drinking my cider: When I tasted the cider about 1 month ago(1/2 a glass), I immediately noticed the bad taste and feel in mouth but drank it anyway. The next day, I had to use the washroom like 10 times during the day and just didn’t feel right. I never get this type of problem and it could be a coincidence but it’s a little suspicious and I wonder if it could be bacteria like the employee at the brew shop suspects?

I went to my local brewery/wine shop today and the guy told me I probably have a bad bacteria in my cider and to put ½ a tea cup of potassium Metabisulphite in each 5 gallon and wait 2 -3 days. Do you recommend I try this? I was planning on bottle carbing the cider so wouldn’t this kill the remaining yeasts and possibly leave a bad taste?

Things I could have done wrong:
- I wasn’t careful when I racked the cider and it splashed a little in the bottom of my carboy … could this have oxidized it?
- I never topped my cider after each racking and I have about 2 inch of free air under the neck of the carboy.
- The cider was in the basement where I have a dehumidifier and the temperature was going back and forth from 18 to 23 because of the heat released by the compressor. Although most of the time it was pretty stable at +- 21
- I live in the country and my water comes from my well. We drink it all the time with no problems and it taste and looks like spring water. I had it tested 1 ½ year ago and all was good. Could it be that my water has bacteria and even after sanitizing my equipment with the potassium metabisulphite, bacteria from the water could have come in contact with the cider?

Thanks in advance for the help or suggestion to troubleshoot what went wrong before I start my next batch that has to be a success.

naeco

The buttery taste may go away with ageing, but the out of cycle massive use of the the washroom is a problem.
"½ a tea cup of potassium Metabisulphite in each 5 gallon and wait 2 -3 days."
That seems extreme to me, but more extreme to me is possible spores hanging around to reintroduce you to the porcelain temple. I would say give it go, I would do a little aeration just help reduce the impact. then on a long weekend around a year from now try it.
Or better yet, have a younger sibling try it.

Hello, I need all the help I can find so I won't put my question in the cider forum only as I think some of you will probably be able to help me. I will be starting a second batch of cider next week and can’t figure out what went wrong with my first and I’m concern I could make the same mistake again! Can anybody help me identify what went wrong?

My problem: Cider never cleared and taste bad with a buttery feel in mouth.

- Started in April of this year using unpasteurized cider.
- Fermented to complete dryness
- Used Lalvin KIV-1116
- Used Bentonite while still in fermentation
- Racked 3 times
- Used Pectin enzyme before fermentation
- Used Camden tablets before fermentation (1 per gallon)
- Used sparkaloid after fermentation

Possible side effect of drinking my cider: When I tasted the cider about 1 month ago(1/2 a glass), I immediately noticed the bad taste and feel in mouth but drank it anyway. The next day, I had to use the washroom like 10 times during the day and just didn’t feel right. I never get this type of problem and it could be a coincidence but it’s a little suspicious and I wonder if it could be bacteria like the employee at the brew shop suspects?

I went to my local brewery/wine shop today and the guy told me I probably have a bad bacteria in my cider and to put ½ a tea cup of potassium Metabisulphite in each 5 gallon and wait 2 -3 days. Do you recommend I try this? I was planning on bottle carbing the cider so wouldn’t this kill the remaining yeasts and possibly leave a bad taste? If not, what would be the appropriate step to follow in order to troubleshoot my problem and it's cause?

Things I could have done wrong:
- I wasn’t careful when I racked the cider and it splashed a little in the bottom of my carboy … could this have oxidized it?
- I never topped my cider after each racking and I have about 2 inch of free air under the neck of the carboy.
- The cider was in the basement where I have a dehumidifier and the temperature was going back and forth from 18 to 23 because of the heat released by the compressor. Although most of the time it was pretty stable at +- 21
- I live in the country and my water comes from my well. We drink it all the time with no problems and it taste and looks like spring water. I had it tested 1 ½ year ago and all was good. Could it be that my water has bacteria and even after sanitizing my equipment with the potassium metabisulphite, bacteria from the water could have come in contact with the cider?

Thanks in advance for the help or suggestion to troubleshoot what went wrong before I start my next batch that has to be a success.

naeco

This has been mentioned in the other threads you started on the same subject, but I'll give it a go.

The problem is diacetyl, most likely caused by you racking way to quickly. Diacetyl is produced by yeast at the beginning of fermentation, then re-absorbed by the yeast as fermentation ends. By racking to early and to often you removed the yeast before they had a chance to clean up the diacetyl

Under-aerated must can also stress the yeast and cause them to produce more diacetyl.

an infection is always a possibility, you might want to get a better equipment sanitizer than just using potassium metabisulphite.

I'm not sure i'd trust anyone who measures by the tea cup, but yes adding some potassium metabisulphite will kill any bacteria you might have. Killing the yeast may not be an issue since there may be very few left after you racked 3 times.

Unfortunately getting rid of the diacetyl isn't so easy aging may not help because of the lack of yeast.

The short answer for your next cider is be patient, aerate your must during the first few days and don't rack until your cider is done fermenting.

Also, if you're planning on bottle carbing rack much less, if at all, since it reduces the amount of yeast available.

What would be a better equipment sanitizer as I'm only familiar with potassium metabisulphite? O hand the sales person said tea spoon, not tea cup ... my bad LOL

Also, can diacetyl be the reason my cider won't clear after pectin enzyme, bentonite and sparkaloid and does it have possible side effect like having to go to the washroom allot :

I just went downstairs and tried the cider again, it seems it's gotten better visually but the weird taste is still there. when if first hits your mouth, it tickle the tong as if it been verrrrry lightly carbonated and the taste at first is not that bad but the aftertaste in your mouth and troth is very unpleasant and has a taste I can't describe. It's not buttery and I can't put it in words but it's nothing you would want to drink! I took 250ml of distilled water and added 1/2 a tea spoon of potassium metabisulphite and added it to the cider. I'll wait a week and see if it clears. How long would you recommend I wait before I try and taste it to see if the bad taste is gone so I can do the same for my second 5 gallon?

If you look in the equipment/sanitation section there's a sticky covering all the different types of sanitizers out there.

diacetyl doesn't cause haze as far as I know.

If you can't nail down the off taste then it's hard to say what might be wrong with it.
you can check here : http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
here : http://www.bcawa.ca/winemaking/flaws.htm
and here : http://www.cider.org.uk/part5.htm
to see if you can match the flavor to a fault.

My advice on your next batch is sanitize well and don't fiddle with it, leave it alone for a few months. If you're still worried about losing batches do smaller sizes, a lot can be learned from doing a gallon at a time.

is is sour at all? pedio will produce lots of diacetyl and will make a beer/cider very thick slimy and turbid

Ive had a pedio infection in a cider before, turned into a butter bomb, added some brett and it cleaned the butter up, but added a good deal of brett funk

to add to pimento, I would also suggest adding an appropriate amount of campden tablets prior to fermenting the cider, then the next day pitching a healthy yeast starter

no, it's not sour nor tick when you look at it but the feel in mouth is greacy and it tickle the tong?

What do you think of:

1 campden per gallon and wait 24 hours
add yiest energizer, pectin enzyme and bentonite and wait another 24
48 hours after the capden, I can pitch in the yeast

naeco said:

no, it's not sour nor tick when you look at it but the feel in mouth is greacy and it tickle the tong?

What do you think of:

1 campden per gallon and wait 24 hours
add yiest energizer, pectin enzyme and bentonite and wait another 24
48 hours after the capden, I can pitch in the yeast

Click to expand...

its most likely a bacteria in there, but at this point there is little that you can do to
A) make it taste better, time may help, but usually doesnt
or
B) get rid of the greasy mouthfeel


I really suggest sticking this brew in a dark corner, forgetting about it for oh say a year, and in the mean time reading up on brewing in general, getting some good sanitizers, and preparing for your next batch