Extract vs. AG question

This is a bit of a general question, but I was hoping that the more experienced brewers on here could enlighten me.

Are there styles of beer that particularly lend themselves to being extract brews? Are there styles of beer that cannot really be achieved fully unless you go AG? Currently, I’m doing 2 gallon boils from kits, and my beer is watery. Granted, I’ve only made three batches—one is six weeks old and is mediocre at best, one is definitely still green, and one is still in the primary. My next planned batch is a dry stout kit.

I’m particularly curious about the following styles: IPAs, double IPAs, wits, weizenbocks, Bavarian weizens, Belgian (all things Belgian—tripels, doubles, etc), chocolate stouts, and mocha porters. Anyone have particularly awesome extract ideas for these styles. I know that IPAs can be done well as extracts, but what about the others?

I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to go AG because I don’t have a yard where I can set up a turkey fryer. I’d really appreciate some help on the extract front from some of the vets out there. Ideas, personal experiences with extract, recipes?

Thanks

You are going to get a bunch of opinion and there is plenty written online on the subject but I'll just say one thing:

You can brew killer beer via extract w/grains, PM or AG. If you're getting less than stellar results currently, look at your ingredients and process first.

My beer kind of taste watered down from the kits too. Somebody told me that in the kits they don't tell you to steep the grains long enough, and that leads to the lack of flavor. I too live in an apartment and can't really do all grain, but next batch I am going to try some recipes from the Homebrewing for Dummies book I have. I will see if those turn out better.

brewt00l said:

You are going to get a bunch of opinion and there is plenty written online on the subject but I'll just say one thing:

You can brew killer beer via extract w/grains, PM or AG. If you're getting less than stellar results currently, look at your ingredients and process first.

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+1 on this...I've had great beers made with every type of brewing available (including Mr Beers), and I've had crappy beers from all of them as well...It really depends on the recipe, the ingredients and the skills of the brewer...NOT what tools you use...If you have a good solid recipe, your brewing process (including sanitization) is dialed in, and your ingredients are fresh, then you can make great beer....If one of those variables isn't up to par then you won't make good beer, and no amount of bells and whistles or type of brewing you do will matter.

(One of the crappiest beers I ever had was brewed by an EAC with several thousand dollars invested into his shiny AG "toys," but just really didn't have a handle on just how the different ingredients he used worked in harmony together.)

AG's will say that that is the only way to go, but you'll also find people who brew different ways depending on their mood or location, like people who brew AG outdoors in the summer, but do PM's or Extract with grains, indoors on their stove in the winter... Or they just don't want to devote an entire day to an AG process.

If you feel your first few batches are "watery" or dissapointing, then why don't you post one of the recipes, and describe your brewing process and maybe we can see what you're missing, and/or how you can improve those recipes...Then if you can "master" that then maybe you can start stepping up...

polamalu43 said:

This is a bit of a general question, but I was hoping that the more experienced brewers on here could enlighten me.

Are there styles of beer that particularly lend themselves to being extract brews? Are there styles of beer that cannot really be achieved fully unless you go AG?

Click to expand...

Check out this book:



Every recipe in it is formulated for extract first, AG second. The authors break the beer styles into three levels of difficulty and discuss which ones are can easily be brewed with extract and which ones really are better suited to AG. There is a large section (maybe a whole chapter) devoted to brewing great beer with extract. Lots of good tips and recipes in this book; I highly recommend it.

+1 to everything Revvy said. You can make good beer with extract, so don't sweat it. A good process, good recipes, and controlling fermentation temps will take your beer to the next level.

i think there are styles that are easier to brew with extract (or you get better results). i'm just starting in on drinking a hefeweizen and i have to say it is probably the true-ist beer i've made yet. the taste is excellent and even the colour is spot on. all from 6lbs of Wheat DME and 1/2 oz of Hallertauer Hersbruker at 60 mins and 1/2 oz at 15 mins - throw in the Wyeast Weihenstephan yeast and let it go. other beers need the more distinctive effect of steeped or mashed grains and some extracts are hard (but not impossible) to come by - such as pils, or munich malt extracts.

Beerthoven said:

+1 to everything Revvy said. You can make good beer with extract, so don't sweat it. A good process, good recipes, and controlling fermentation temps will take your beer to the next level.

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Thanks!

I've sort of adopted the "mr beer" thread lately, I guess since I got my start with it despite it's drawbacks AND the fact that a lot of people malign the little brown jug, I figured I'd give people a hand with their questions...and hopefully encourage them to learn to make the best beers possible with that (work on their process, and learn about the ingredients they use) and then encourage them to step up to larger batches and more difficult processes.

I'd love to see someone win at a competition with a mr beer brew...If anything, just to prove that "it ain't the gear that makes the beer....it's the brewer."

I'm really restricted in my ability to do AG right now. I don't have any outdoor space where I live where I can use a propane setup to do full volume boils, and my stove tends to max out at boiling any amount over 4 gallons. So it's PM and Extract w/grains for now...SO I can either whine about it, or make the best beer I can...Although I have been toying with the idea of blowing the duct off the Mr Beer in my closet and doing 2.5 gallon AG's in it...

Thanks for all of the advice. You all have been nothing but helpful.

I just want to make one thing clear: I’m not blaming extracts for my first two batches turning out to be mediocre. Rather, I simply wanted to know if there are styles that I should stay away from given that I’m only going to be working with extracts for a while. I’m still a novice at brewing, and I’m virtually certain that my technique had more to do with producing watery beer than anything kit that I bought.

I’m actually cautiously optimistic about my third batch. I used the same weizen kit that I used during my first batch. Except this time I was armed with Revvy’s sanitation tips (yes, I read that thread) and wyeast 3068 (as opposed the American wheat yeast that they had, which was dry and sucked).

I got an OG well above what I was supposed to, but I believe that it was due to not mixing the wort properly. Unlikely my previous beers, I’m leaving this in the secondary for two weeks. I’ll then bottle it for two weeks and try one and let you know how it goes.

As far as my recipe goes, here’s what I did for my 3rd batch (the one I’m optimistic about):

2 Gallon Boil
6.6 lbs. Muntons LME
½ oz Mt. Hood at 60 and ½ oz. at 5 minutes.
Wyeast 3068 pitched @ roughly 70 degrees
OG 1.068 – mistake? Should be 1.052

I have a nylon net that I pour the cooled wort through that catches the hop pellets when I transfer from my brewpot to my primary. I squeezed this net like a teabag to make sure that there was no wort left and that all remained was hop pellets. I know you’re not supposed to squeeze specialty grain bags but I figured that this was different because it was simply boiled extract wort and hop pellets.

Fermented vigorously at 73-75. Beer came up through the airlock. I took a sample hydrometer reading after a week and it was 1.014. It was green but definitely had clove flavor. I’m cautiously optimistic.

Notes:
No specialty grains (perhaps why I’ve lacked body and taste is watery?)
Struggled getting the airlock in the lid of my plastic fermenter so there was a lot of hand-lid contact. Hands were clean and sanitized, though.

Anyone think that the light body/watery problem could be due to lack of specialty grains?

Also, anyone see any problems with squezing my nylon net that was holding the hop pellets and cooled wort? Again, I didn't use any grains so I shouldn't get the astringent, tannic taste, right?

Thanks. You all are so helpful.

I have never brewed without specialty grains so I don't know if I can help. I have only brewed from extract kits and some recipes that were based on kits. I think the watery taste might be due to no specialty grains but again I have never done it. I steep them for 40 minutes to an hour at 150 to 155 and like the results. Where do you buy your kits from.

Revvy said:

I'd love to see someone win at a competition with a mr beer brew...

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That would be something to see!! I guess it's possible because people do win awards using recipe kits.

No way am I ready to make the leap to AG yet, but I've been looking at partial-mash kits as a way to get my feet wet. Anyone have any opinions?

badsneaker said:

That would be something to see!! I guess it's possible because people do win awards using recipe kits.

No way am I ready to make the leap to AG yet, but I've been looking at partial-mash kits as a way to get my feet wet. Anyone have any opinions?

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If you're interested and like brown ales you can do my "Old Bog Road" Brown Ale recipe...It can be done either as an extract w/grains, or you can do it as a partial Mash in a 2 gallon cooler...The victory malt in the grainbill can either be used as steeping or it can be mashed...I've never done it as a steeping recipe, so I can't tell you how different it is from the minimash...But I'm sure it will have less body...and not as much flavor.

Old Bog Road Brown Ale

6# Light DME
1lb Victory
1lb Special Roast
1lb Crystal 60L
.25 Chocolate
1oz Cascade(60) 6.6 AA
.25oz Galena(60) 13.4 AA (Or nugget or Warrior, if available)
.5oz Fuggles(20) 5.1
.5oz Fuggles(5) 5.1

Safale Us-56 ale Yeast

Original Gravity
1.072 (1.064 to 1.075)
Final Gravity
1.019 (1.017 to 1.021)
Color
25° SRM
(Brown to Dark Brown)
Mash Efficiency
80%
Bitterness
9.9 HBU
47.6 IBU (Uncorrected)
BU:GU
0.67

Partial Mash in 2 gallon unmodified Cooler. Mash 1.5 gallons of water. for 90 minutes water @ 170 and added to 69 degree grain. 154 deg. Strike Temp. Sparged with 2 gallons. Added all the DME just before boil. Pitched onto us-56 yeastcake from prev. batch. (all hops are pellet)

For my simplified mash tun I simply did this...

Take a 2 gallon cooler (9 bucks at kmarts)


Place a folding type strainer in the bottom (unscrew the center top post)



Then place a large grain bag in the cooler, fold the open part of the bag over the lip of the cooler and secure with 1 or 2 large rubberbands to hold in place (I went over and below the thread that screw the lid on...Add water to the cooler, and place grains in bag, and dough in the grains (stir them) for a couple minutes before replacing lid on...(I didn't screw the lid on all the way because I didn't want to tear the drainbag where it went over the threads....I twisted the lid finger tight, and wrapped the cooler in a thermal type blanket.

The purpose of the strainer is to lift the grain bag above the height of the spigot, this prevents and stuck sparges.

I bottled it last week...and I have to say that the hydrometer sample I drank was the best green, warm and uncarbonated beer sample I ever tasted....It has a nice complex flavor from the mix of grains...The victory gives it a biscuity taste, and the special roast has hints of caramel and raisins. Good stuff.

polamalu43 said:

Anyone think that the light body/watery problem could be due to lack of specialty grains?

Also, anyone see any problems with squezing my nylon net that was holding the hop pellets and cooled wort? Again, I didn't use any grains so I shouldn't get the astringent, tannic taste, right?

Thanks. You all are so helpful.

Click to expand...

I'd say that it's a very real possibility. I'm still a noob too, but my second extract kit was a Blonde AHS Gold Seal extract kit. It's good, but just a little more watery than most bottled blondes. It did not include steeping grains. Last weekend, I boiled an AHS non-gold seal extract kit that came with grains and it looked and smelled a lot more full-bodied. I'll let you know this weekend when I take a hydrometer reading!

polamalu43 said:

Anyone think that the light body/watery problem could be due to lack of specialty grains?

Also, anyone see any problems with squezing my nylon net that was holding the hop pellets and cooled wort? Again, I didn't use any grains so I shouldn't get the astringent, tannic taste, right?

Thanks. You all are so helpful.

Click to expand...

Speciality grains will add flavour and body - but as we've discussed, some styles don't need them. I think you can make a good hefe w/o, maybe also a sierra nevada type beer.

edit: but do try steeping grains - it's really easy and then it's a short hop to the 2g cooler... then you're buying a keggle.... etc.

cd2448 said:

edit: but do try steeping grains - it's really easy and then it's a short hop to the 2g cooler... then you're buying a keggle.... etc.

Click to expand...

Yup, that's the slippery slope to addiction!!!!!

Revvy said:

If you're interested and like brown ales you can do my "Old Bog Road" Brown Ale recipe...

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Wow! Thanks a million, Revvy!!!

My next brew is going to be a stout, maybe I can try your recipe when the fermenter is available again. Then again, this would be a good excuse for picking up another carboy.

Here is my take on it...

best styles for EXTRACT ONLY:
Hefeweizen
Kolsch

best styles for EXTRACT WITH STEEPING GRAINS:
Stouts and Porters

You, of course, can make all these beers just as well and possibly better with PM or AG. Mashing really comes into play when you want to use grains that need Base Malts along with them, that's why stouts are good for extract batches...none of the grains usually need to be mashed.

the only main difference between PM and AG is equipment. ANYONE can do a PM, which means that ANYONE can make any type of beer they want

cglkaptc said:

My beer kind of taste watered down from the kits too. Somebody told me that in the kits they don't tell you to steep the grains long enough, and that leads to the lack of flavor. I too live in an apartment and can't really do all grain, but next batch I am going to try some recipes from the Homebrewing for Dummies book I have. I will see if those turn out better.

Click to expand...

I use to live in an apartment and had the same trouble. I started doubleing the time of steeping and got alot better results from that... I also found that in some of the kits, they use extract that would make the beer a little bit on the wet side. I have always made it a point to add more extract to a kit to bring up the abv and to increase the flavor of the kit. I am AG now but I started my adventure into AG by changing or adding grains to kits for steeping. Like if you are doing a Scottish Ale, go the the LHBS and get .5# of some grains, your choice and add it to what you have in the kit. That's really how you learn what different grains do to different brews.

I have made some killer brewes with extract, and have done the same with AG... The only big difference I have found with extract vs. AG is that AG has alot more tweaking you can do to change a brew. If you are trying to clone a beer from a manufacture, AG is the way you will hit it on the head, while extract will get you within a couple of feet.

Personal opionion, do what ever it takes to brew. No matter what you use. Can's, kit's or mash tun, your making beer and beer is good...

gauthierk said:

I use to live in an apartment and had the same trouble. I started doubleing the time of steeping and got alot better results from that... I also found that in some of the kits, they use extract that would make the beer a little bit on the wet side. I have always made it a point to add more extract to a kit to bring up the abv and to increase the flavor of the kit. I am AG now but I started my adventure into AG by changing or adding grains to kits for steeping. Like if you are doing a Scottish Ale, go the the LHBS and get .5# of some grains, your choice and add it to what you have in the kit. That's really how you learn what different grains do to different brews.

I have made some killer brewes with extract, and have done the same with AG... The only big difference I have found with extract vs. AG is that AG has alot more tweaking you can do to change a brew. If you are trying to clone a beer from a manufacture, AG is the way you will hit it on the head, while extract will get you within a couple of feet.

Personal opionion, do what ever it takes to brew. No matter what you use. Can's, kit's or mash tun, your making beer and beer is good...

Click to expand...

Great post and great advice!!!

I, too, had the thin body "watery" problem with my first few batches (brewers best kits). They beers tasted good, but were just a little thin. I thought I'd done all of my homework, done lots of research, followed instructions, etc. but the beers were just a little lacking. I did a lot more reading and found that if I added 8oz of maltodextrin it will greatly increase the body of a 5gal batch. I also started moving more toward a partial mash (not quite all the way technically speaking, but close) by building my own recipes and converting extract to grain and adding that grain as opposed to the extract for my fermentables.
So far, everything I've done has been increasingly better with each batch.

Disclaimer: I'm flying blind on a hawkman rocket cycle. I am not an expert, and this may be a totally frowned upon way to do things, but it seems to be working and everyone that tasted my beer (beer snobs included) think it's pretty darned good.

DeathBrewer said:

best styles for EXTRACT WITH STEEPING GRAINS:
Stouts and Porters

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Some would put those in the catagory of types that can be best done with a PM, or AG. The reasoning being that styles that contain grains that require mashing for proper conversion. So styles using flaked barley, oats, rye, corn, rice, etc.

Steeping only would add more non-fermentables then you would expect if the same grains were mashed.

Beer kits normally plan for this though, and utilize extract kits that are dryer then you might expect (higher glucose percentage) to balance out the added long-chains.

That said, extract-based beers are won at competitions all the time. Many commercial breweries also use extracts. The trick is to treat the extract simply as a fermentable base, just like the 2-row in an AG recipe.

Meaning, get the lightest, freshest extract, and either do a full boil, or a late boil to elliminate mallard reactions. Then micromash steeping grains with some 6-row, and you should be able to replicate any style.

nick

HP_Lovecraft said:

Some would put those in the catagory of types that can be best done with a PM, or AG. The reasoning being that styles that contain grains that require mashing for proper conversion. So styles using flaked barley, oats, rye, corn, rice, etc.

Steeping only would add more non-fermentables then you would expect if the same grains were mashed.

Beer kits normally plan for this though, and utilize extract kits that are dryer then you might expect (higher glucose percentage) to balance out the added long-chains.

That said, extract-based beers are won at competitions all the time. Many commercial breweries also use extracts. The trick is to treat the extract simply as a fermentable base, just like the 2-row in an AG recipe.

Meaning, get the lightest, freshest extract, and either do a full boil, or a late boil to elliminate mallard reactions. Then micromash steeping grains with some 6-row, and you should be able to replicate any style.

nick

Click to expand...

This is good advice. Thanks!

hi cd 2448,

i've to admit to be an all-grain brewer (my nick may have already revealed that). i'm german and i'm lucky to have the possibility to get the real weihenstephan yeast from our local brewery. i think a hefeweizen mainly depends on the yeast (hefe) you add. so, it won't make a big difference whether brewing all-grain or extract. although i have never brewed any batch by extract brewing i'm sure that this method can't produce bad results because you have an industrially produced wort (powder or syrup) that you finalize. and a wheat beer is a light bodied, crispy fresh beer with no hop appearance (flavorwise - 10 to 15 IBU @ 12 to 13 °P). it should work indeed. but if you want to create a very tasty full-bodied wheat beer (possibly a wheat bock (16 - below 18 °P) or wheat doppelbock (18 °P+)) with a lot of (malt) flavor an all-grain mash might be the better solution because of the high cost for malt extract. depending on the concentration of the mash (in case money doesn't play any role) it shan't be any problem, too to receive the same result with malt extract. even if it's a lot of work to make an all-grain brew (approx. 8 to 9 hours including everything) that's my way. i like it, sometimes more, sometimes less (but I have to react as soon as most of the cases are empty). Moreover I have such a good water like in pilsen with 1.5 °dH (degrees of german hardness), 0.8 ° of carbonate hardness, and an rest alcalinity of approx. 0.4 (hardnesses only measured by titration and rest alcalinity calculated by rule of thumb).

"Prost" as we say here. Would be nice to get a response.

grain-pa (sounds older than i am :cross: )

Coming back to the game after being out of it for 10+ years I sum it as this.
Extract - you can make good beer.
Extract + steeping grains - you can make better to really good beer.
All grain - have not yet achieved it yet, hope to by May-June, but you can make bad to exceptional beers. Mostly exceptional beers if you follow instructions.

hi mike2008,

a good decision to get back to homebrewing after such a long time. but it's like riding bicycle or like swimming, once you have learnt it you will never forget how it works. anyhow, why do you think it's "only" possible to make a bad beer by using the all-grain method? I am certain you can also make mistakes with the other brewing methods (equipment not clean enough or new self-made recipe is not tasty ...). good luck with your first all-grain batch in may or june. what type of beer will you most probably brew - any idea? i recently created a recipe for kellerbier. I wanted to copy the german mönchshof kellerbier and, indeed, it has been really yummy.

the grain bill is as follows:

50% - pilsener malt
25% - munich malt type II (münchener malz typ II)
15% - smoked malt (rauchmalz)
10% - Caramünch (= caramel malt) Type II

hop additions (total boil time 90 min)
1. bittering - 20 g spalt select 5.9 alpha acid after 10 min boil time
2. aroma - 11 g spalt select 5.9 alpha acid after 50 min boil time
3. aroma - 15 g spalt select 5.9 alpha acid after 70 min boil time

yeast
i used the dry yeast "saflager S-23" which I really made good experience with (but to be honest i think there is not that big difference regarding lager yeast strains in comparison to ale yeast - i made a good pilsener and also a good märzen using "saflager s-23". i use it as a universal yeast for any bottom fermenting type of beer.

mashing
20 min at 55 °C
30 min at 62 °C
30 min at 72 °C
10 min at 78 °C

i recently bought me a very good helper the "speidel's braumeister" - whenerver i am too lazy for the entire 9 hours procedure i use this helper. for more details please have a look at http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/

you can use the google translation on top (on the right) called "google übersetzung", choose "english" and the the homepage will appear in englisch.

i wish you a lot of fun with that.

have good time.

grain pa,

that looks like a pretty cool set up. I will be in Bavaria later in April. I can't wait to drink some real German beer after 20 years.
prost

grain-pa,

Thank you for posting the link to the braumeister. That certainly replaces a whole lot of equipment!! I can't seem to make the conversion from euro to us dollars, maybe I will write speidel.

Just curious, have you compared the quality of your beer using the braumeister versus the traditional methods?

Prost!!!

Sorry - was offline for awhile.
My thinking was that for extract or partial extract you mostly follow instructions. For AG you can follow instructions and deviate. It is the choice to deviate that I said you can make bad to exceptional beer with AG. I think my first all grain experience is going to be the Ed Worts Hause Ale.

HP_Lovecraft said:

Some would put those in the catagory of types that can be best done with a PM, or AG. The reasoning being that styles that contain grains that require mashing for proper conversion. So styles using flaked barley, oats, rye, corn, rice, etc.

Steeping only would add more non-fermentables then you would expect if the same grains were mashed.

Click to expand...

good point...i was thinking roasted barley, crystal, etc do not need to be mashed. this would work for a standard stout, but yes, if you were using oats or something you would need to mash.

i haven't made an extract brew in quite a long time. my rye stout was one of my first partial mashes and that turned out fantastic. it's so easy to do a partial mash just to convert what you need, just as easy as steeping, that there's no reason any brewer can't make any style.

here's my current in-the-kitchen PM method. it makes for a fast brew session and it can be done easily, with very little mess. only downside for me is mediocre efficiency, usually about 60%

1. mash grains in 1.5 quarts/lb of water for 45-60 minutes inside a large bag in a 4 gallon stockpot
2. while mashing, heat additional water in 7 gallon stockpot to sparge temperature (i get it above 174F)
3. when conversion is complete, dip grain bag in sparge water and "tea-bag" for a few minutes, letting it extract what it can (my sparge will drop below 170F, even with the heat on)
4. remove grains and let water heat to ~190F, then add extract while stirring (again, keep heat on)
5. let the hot break commence and start your boil (i do a partial boil at about 4 gallons on my stovetop)