Exploring "no chill" brewing

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matthendry said:
I used make these as wort kits in Australia and it makes a difference when your packaging 400 liters of wort compared to 20 liters
Click to expand...

True. did you let the cubes cool "on their own" or use refrigeration? I've been thinking of throwing mine into the fridge once it gets below 120 or so. No real reason, just if I want to brew in the morning and pitch yeast the same night.
 
Here's a thought: I've got an extra corny. Suppose I could use it as my no chill vessel instead of buying a plastic one. Could also get all the air out by covering with a layer of CO2 that way.
 
We would pack them in the van after they got packed at the microbrewey (poor driver) who would bring them to the warehouse the next day and some of the Sydney homebrew retailers would get warm wort kits if they where delivered the next day .We did store them in the walk in cooler after couple of days to keep them fresh .

You want them at pasteurization temperatures as long as possible and 122 is the lowest .Cold crashing wont hurt below 122F .I would recommend you store the wort as cold as possible so it retains its freshness .
 
ChadLeBald said:
Here's a thought: I've got an extra corny. Suppose I could use it as my no chill vessel instead of buying a plastic one. Could also get all the air out by covering with a layer of CO2 that way.
Click to expand...

A corny is fine as long as you put some head presssure (22 psi) in the vessel so the keg doesn't suck air in from the connections .
 
I just received my cylindrical Winpak and it seems that there will definitely bit a small amount of headspace because the very top of the container is a bit higher than the neck, meaning it's not possible to fill completely full. That doesn't seem good. I know I will get some shrinkage on cooling, but i'd be surprised if all the airspace disappears.



Do the cubes or another container have better dimensions to allow them to be filled 100% full for zero dead airspace?
 
I've no-chilled in a corny keg. As described, fill it, cap it, and pressurize it. I fill it to just below the gas-in dip tube, then pressurize.

Watch out for the sides once you fill it. Since a corny has thin walls, it gets HOT on the sides.

I've since switched to 6 gallon winpaks, because I like to finish with a filled corny. Using one as a no-chill vessel means you get about 4-1/2 gallons out once you account for trub/break losses.
 
jaginger said:
I just received my cylindrical Winpak and it seems that there will definitely bit a small amount of headspace because the very top of the container is a bit higher than the neck, meaning it's not possible to fill completely full. That doesn't seem good. I know I will get some shrinkage on cooling, but i'd be surprised if all the airspace disappears.



Do the cubes or another container have better dimensions to allow them to be filled 100% full for zero dead airspace?
Click to expand...

All of the HDPE containers that I have (6 variations IIRC) are oversized just a bit.

That said, you can squeeze out any airspace easy enough. Just fill with hot wort, put the cube against something solid, slowly push out the air and cap.

If I'm going to pitch within a day or three, I don't bother to bleed out the air.
 
jds said:
I've no-chilled in a corny keg. As described, fill it, cap it, and pressurize it. I fill it to just below the gas-in dip tube, then pressurize.

Watch out for the sides once you fill it. Since a corny has thin walls, it gets HOT on the sides.

I've since switched to 6 gallon winpaks, because I like to finish with a filled corny. Using one as a no-chill vessel means you get about 4-1/2 gallons out once you account for trub/break losses.
Click to expand...

Given your fill level, are you saying you loose roughly a gallon from trub and break losses?

-From your previous post it sounds like the trub volume was roughly a gallon and due to hot break and hops...
 
Ok,
I have read the thread and I am ready to take the plunge. I have three concerns for the Czech Pils I am going to brew.

1: DMS I plan to boil 90-100 minutes. I didn't see any follow-up posts confirming no DMS in an all-pils bill. Can anyone confirm?

2: Cold-break suspension: Is it true that chill-haze is the only concern with cold-break? No off-flavors? I plan to pitch 24 hours after cooling. I gather that Pol doesn't worry about cold-break at all, and has some pretty clear beer. Should I have other concerns about fermenting the cold-break?

3:FWH: I have one 10 minute aroma addition. If I want to use Pol's adjustments, I would add the hops to the wort after first runnings. I would also adjust the quantity of hops so that the IBU's contributed from a 10 minute boil (in a full-chill method) match a 20 minute boil (from the FWH). Is that correct?

Thanks very much for the help. I really detest getting a siphon going through my CFC. It is my least favorite, and longest part of my brew day. Nothing would make me happier than selling that damned thing.
 
Just for fun I did a 45 minute boil to see if I could get DMS using pilsner malt (I think I used Weyermann). It was a smash using 8lbs pilsner malt, saaz and fermented with Wyeast 2112 (Steam). Keep in mind that I'm no BJCP judge but there was nothing close to a cooked corn or cooked vegetable flavor that I could detect. I boiled off a gallon of water in that 45 mins. I think that's more boil-off than most people get so YMMV.

Keep in mind I was intentionally playing with fire. Don't expect not to get burned just because I didn't. There's nothing wrong with taking your time on a 90min boil.
 
I only boil for 60 minutes. I've made porters and pale/amber ales and they are very good beers. No odd/off flavors that I or my friends can detect.
 
I just went to WalMart, after looking everywhere and found these:
Reliance 7 gallon Jugs
for 10 bucks!

They seem somewhat flexible and I think they'll work to ferment directly in.
 
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Noisy123, please let us know how these work out for you. I "no-chilled" in a bucket on my recent Sierra Torpedo IPA clone, but I think I'd like to have something like this for "no-chilling".
 
noisy123 said:
I just went to WalMart, after looking everywhere and found these:
Reliance 7 gallon Jugs
for 10 bucks!

They seem somewhat flexible and I think they'll work to ferment directly in.
Click to expand...

It'll probably work. 2 things to check for:
1) The container needs to be HDPE, not LDPE. (It'll be labeled somewhere on the container.) It's probably HDPE... but if it's LDPE, your hot wort will melt it like the Wicked Witch of the West.
2) The container in the link has an air valve. These can sometimes allow air to enter, which is not good for no-chill. To ensure the container is air tight, fill it half full of hot tap water, bleed some of the air out to the point where the sides concave in a bit and cap it. When it cools it should continue to collapse. If it doesn't, it's not air tight and should not be used for no-chill.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
noisy123 said:
I just went to WalMart, after looking everywhere and found these:
Reliance 7 gallon Jugs
for 10 bucks!

They seem somewhat flexible and I think they'll work to ferment directly in.
Click to expand...

I also went with these for no chill. Working great for me. I have not fermented in it yet, but a stopper will fit into the 1/2nptf hole in the lid. I pour my wort to a carbouy to help airate.
Cheers:mug:
 
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wrestler63 said:
I also went with these for no chill. Working great for me. I have not fermented in it yet, but a stopper will fit into the 1/2nptf hole in the lid. I pour my wort to a carbouy to help airate.
Cheers:mug:
Click to expand...

Oh, forgot to mention.......Make sure the airhole plug is super tight and sqeeze out all the air with your knees before sealing.
 
I have used these as well. I read that someone had problems with air leaking through the spigot so I replaced it with a pvc plug with iron pipe threads. After pitching I just replaced the plug with the drilled stopper and put my airlock in. Worked great. I had to buy a #5 stopper since the normal ones for carboys are too big...

I have pitched and fermented in these vessels and everything is bubbling along.
 
Wow. This is an EPIC thread. A few things on my mind:

1) This works, and it can be done in spite of what some may say. I love mythbusting!:mug:

2) In spite of being listed as food grade, HDPE WILL ABSOLUTELY release harmful chemicals into the beer if heated. You may not be able to detect them by taste and smell, but I can guarantee there are carcinogens going into your beer. Caveat Emptor.

3) Due in part to #2, I'm not sure enough attention has been given to corny kegs. There have been some fantastic threads done on this, here's one:https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/closed-system-pressurized-fermentation-technique-44344/

I envision a "hybrid" procedure incorporating the best of several recently popularized (and proven) techniques:

A) Possibly do a BIAB No-Sparge. Or sparge if you want to. Whatever.
B) Do No-Chill as described in this thread, paying special attention to limiting transfer of hop matter.
C) Transfer to a sanitized corny, and allow to cool. Pop the pressure relief valve "up", or slightly loosen your gas-in post, or pressurize with CO2. Whatever. If you think 4.5 gals isn't enough beer, then use a quarter keg.
D) When cool, pitch the RWS in the same corny. Add Fermcap, and use a blowoff.
E) Attach spunding valve after fermentation settles a bit, as described in closed fermentation thread.
F) Crash cool and transfer crystal clear, already fermented beer to a sanitized keg (with herb balls for dry-hopping, if you wish).
G) Attach dirty keg(s) to a doc n' tasty style keg cleaner.
H) Drink your beer like prohibition starts tomorrow.:mug:
 
Scuba,
This is definitely not a pissing match, because I am brand new to no-chill and just trying to find out what is simple and works. I am just asking what sort of backup or documentation you have for point #2 about chemicals from HDPE. If it's true and supportable, i will probably try to go another route (like corny's.) But I am just trying to find what the facts are.

Please share if you have some good info to support that point.

Thanks,
Jason
 
ScubaSteve said:
2) In spite of being listed as food grade, HDPE WILL ABSOLUTELY release harmful chemicals into the beer if heated. You may not be able to detect them by taste and smell, but I can guarantee there are carcinogens going into your beer. Caveat Emptor.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree...


http://www.bukisa.com/articles/124904_plastics-recycling-numbers-on-the-bottoms-of-containers-are-resin-id-codes-what-they-mean-and-how-to-use-them-for-safety-and-recycling

www.hubplastics.com/sections/.../HP50-25-155_msds.pdf

#2 – HDPE (high-density polyethylene) is the opaque plastic used for milk jugs; juice bottles, bottles for bleach, detergent, household cleaners, shampoo, some trash and shopping bags, motor oil bottles, small tubs for butter and yogurt, and cereal box liners. A more stable plastic than PET, it is thought to be safe from carcinogens or hormone-disrupting chemicals. Used for the heavier jug-type containers for laundry detergent, cat litter, and bleach, it is also made into toys, piping, plastic lumber, and rope. Recycled HDPE is in fairly strong demand by manufacturers. Clear HDPE can be reused for new containers, but the colored is generally recycled for plastic lumber. Indestructible Tyvek mailing envelopes and white contamination suits are made from a form of HDPE, but are impossible to recycle.
 
I knew without a doubt I would get "in trouble" for #2 :D

FWIW I'm not condemning anyone for using "cubes", they're awesome. This is a fantastic method, and I am all about dispelling myths, assumptions, and generally uninformed opinions in the brewing community (and society in general). I just think corny's should be given a closer look, we already have them, and they are indestructable, affordable, multitaskers that can ferment, age, carbonate, and serve. Plus I don't want any more carcinogens getting in the way of my alcohol:D

Here's what I base my opinion from:

1) Above all, common sense. Plastics and many other substances in general may be food grade at low temp, but once heated, their molecular bonds begin to weaken and substrate chemicals are given off, if even in small amounts. The plastic vessel may maintain its general shape, and may also return to its original shape once cooled. This is what plastics and polymers do, and that is why we like them. But it's not a good idea to ingest food items that have been in contact with them when they have been in a highly "plastic" state. The FDA does not recommend that you heat foods in plastic vessels for this very reason.

2) The jury is still out on #2 HDPE, the FDA is currently doing a 5 year study that has not concluded. It will be a while before we get any major authority to release their findings because of the red tape and $$$ involved, but HPDE is currently considered safe for food AT LOW TEMP. It is not advised to heat foods in it. Here's an old, but still relevant article. See what it says about what goes into making HDPE: http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Dont-Buy-Plastics.htm Again, I am not an environmental nut, but I do care about mitigating risks whenever possible (after a few pints, all bets are off :) )

3) I have extensive medical and scientific education, which I will not go into for liability reasons. Again, this is in part what I have used to form MY opinion...it does not mean that you should do what I do because I have such training and education. This is my opinion based on available information.

I encourage everyone to seek their own answers from available evidence based research that is out there. I personally choose to "limit but not eliminate" the amount of heated plastic I use in my brewing, such as using silicon tubing versus braided vinyl.

All this is just one example of a potential risk I can control in my brewing process, others are using better bottles vs. glass, or using fermcap to prevent scalding myself. If you can prevent injury or illness in yourself & friends, why wouldn't you?

FWIW. IMHO. :mug:
 
You don't have to expose your hot wort to HDPE if you don't want to. You can simply put a decent lid on your stainless steel boil kettle at flameout and let it come to room temp before transfering to your choice of fermenters. You can't store wort for very long this way but its how I do my no chills and I like the process. I don't have cornies.
 
nutty_gnome said:
You don't have to expose your hot wort to HDPE if you don't want to. You can simply put a decent lid on your stainless steel boil kettle at flameout and let it come to room temp before transferring to your choice of fermenters. You can't store wort for very long this way but its how I do my no chills and I like the process. I don't have cornies.
Click to expand...

You're completely right. We can go about brewing a million different ways...and you'll still make beer :) I just kinda think cornies are cool because they can do so many things.

Sorry guys, I really didn't want to make this thread about HDPE vs. stainless :eek: I was more interested in what you guys thought of the below process, which incorporates the use of a pressurized vessel, corny or otherwise and seems pretty slick to me:

I envision a "hybrid" procedure incorporating the best of several recently popularized (and proven) techniques:

A) Possibly do a BIAB No-Sparge. Or sparge if you want to. Whatever.
B) Do No-Chill as described in this thread, paying special attention to limiting transfer of hop matter.
C) Transfer to a sanitized corny, and allow to cool. Pop the pressure relief valve "up", or slightly loosen your gas-in post, or pressurize with CO2. Whatever. If you think 4.5 gals isn't enough beer, then use a quarter keg.
D) When cool, pitch the RWS in the same corny. Add Fermcap, and use a blowoff.
E) Attach spunding valve after fermentation settles a bit, as described in closed fermentation thread.
F) Crash cool and transfer crystal clear, already fermented beer to a sanitized keg (with herb balls for dry-hopping, if you wish).
G) Attach dirty keg(s) to a doc n' tasty style keg cleaner.
H) Drink your beer like prohibition starts tomorrow.

:mug:
 
So if one were to "no-chill" in their brew kettle with a decent fitting lid I assume you'd want to transfer to a fermentation vessel and pitch as soon as wort temp allowed?

What is the safest length of time you could let it go before pitching?

What room conditions should this "Brew Kettle Chill Vessel" full of wort be stored in? Just stick your kettle in the closet with a lid on?
 
FWIW, I don't use Cornies but I do use Sanke kegs to ferment and serve in. I however also use the HDPE containers to ferment in, but given the choice I'll always pick a Sanke keg to ferment in especially if I'm doing a no chill brew.
 
ScubaSteve said:
A) Possibly do a BIAB No-Sparge. Or sparge if you want to. Whatever.
B) Do No-Chill as described in this thread, paying special attention to limiting transfer of hop matter.
C) Transfer to a sanitized corny, and allow to cool. Pop the pressure relief valve "up", or slightly loosen your gas-in post, or pressurize with CO2. Whatever. If you think 4.5 gals isn't enough beer, then use a quarter keg.
D) When cool, pitch the RWS in the same corny. Add Fermcap, and use a blowoff.
E) Attach spunding valve after fermentation settles a bit, as described in closed fermentation thread.
F) Crash cool and transfer crystal clear, already fermented beer to a sanitized keg (with herb balls for dry-hopping, if you wish).
G) Attach dirty keg(s) to a doc n' tasty style keg cleaner.
H) Drink your beer like prohibition starts tomorrow.

:mug:
Click to expand...


It looks like a great setup, especially if you keg. All you need is an empty corny. Simple is good. Heck, I don't keg, but I'm thinking I can change what I'm doing and no chill in my boil pot. Boil away, then once it comes to temperature, pop my starter or yeast in - right in the pot. If I need the pot, I can always transfer to a carboy.

I've got to get rid of my burner before I can do this - but I've been wanting to do this anyway, since my Cajun Injector always leaves a thick coat of soot on my pot because it burns so rich.
 
ScubaSteve said:
Plastics and many other substances in general may be food grade at low temp, but once heated, their molecular bonds begin to weaken and substrate chemicals are given off, if even in small amounts... But it's not a good idea to ingest food items that have been in contact with them when they have been in a highly "plastic" state. The FDA does not recommend that you heat foods in plastic vessels for this very reason.
..HPDE is currently considered safe for food AT LOW TEMP.
Click to expand...

off-topic probably, but what about the common practice of using the plastic coolers for the mash? Steve- I gather you would also avoid it.
 
That's an excellent point. I've never really liked the idea of exposing that cooler to those temps, so I use a SS keg mash tun. I really miss that heat retention, though :)

Again, for me it's about avoiding some of the bad stuff if I can...if coolers were the only way to make beer then I'd be first in line ;)
 
ScubaSteve said:
That's an excellent point. I've never really liked the idea of exposing that cooler to those temps, so I use a SS keg mash tun. I really miss that heat retention, though :)
Click to expand...
just checking-- I use a SS mash tun for that very reason, and just wondered if the temp losses were 'worth' it.
 
I did an unplanned no-chill brew today and, not having ever planned on doing no-chill, I thought I'd share the story here:

The day started like any typical brewday with me kegging a batch to gain an open fermenter. Once the fermenter (a 6.5gal better bottle) was free I set it up on the counter all full of oxyclean to give it an hour soak. During the hour I got my mash doughed in and came back to rinse and sanitize only to discover a puddle of oxyclean under the fermenter. After locating a small crack and a small hole in my fermenter which apparently happened sometime during/after kegging the cider, I evaluated my options, and here's what I came up with:

#1 I could free up another fermenter, but with no empty kegs around, it would mean dumping something currently in a keg and also kegging a batch prematurely.

#2 I could abandon the brew in progress.

#3 I could use the True Brew bottling bucket that I have. Here's the catch on this one: This bucket is what I have crushed the grain into for every batch since I purchased my barley crusher. What's worse, I've used it to carry brewday supplies like my drill, pitcher, etc. In other words, it almost assuredly has plenty of micro abrasions and has seen more than its share of crushed grain covered in wild yeast.

As you may have deduced, I opted to use the bottling bucket, no-chill style. I did give it a thorough oxycleaning and a starsan soak with 1.5x strength starsan. It is currently cooling off under the ceiling fan in the brew room, sucking bubbbles in through a starsan filled single piece airlock. Having never researched no-chill, I don't know if there is a safer way to allow it to cool off without pulling air into the fermenter, but I'm going to try to read up on that a little now.

Cheers.
 
J have not read all or even most of the posts here and I have no opinions about "no chill". but I was just reading about how many breweries are NOT bitter hopping but moving the main bittering to much much later in the boil. Giving beer more backbone and an amazing amount of flavor and aroma. One thing that got my attention is they are very aware about the amount of time between the final hop addition and when yeast is pitched.

They are finding are that the longer between the final hops and pitching the lest hop characteristic you will get.

So . . . no chill brewing seems to be a god thing but not if yo uare making an IPA or some brew with a lot of late edition hops.

http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.htm
 
daveyohill said:
So if one were to "no-chill" in their brew kettle with a decent fitting lid I assume you'd want to transfer to a fermentation vessel and pitch as soon as wort temp allowed?

What is the safest length of time you could let it go before pitching?

What room conditions should this "Brew Kettle Chill Vessel" full of wort be stored in? Just stick your kettle in the closet with a lid on?
Click to expand...

I can speak from experience based on what I do and I can note that I haven't had any trouble with the set up.

I boil outside on a propane burner. When done, I cap the pot with a heavy, tight lid that has been sanitized (I also spray the the inside upper walls of the pot a little). I then carry the pot (about 50-60 pounds I suppose) down into my basement and put it on the concrete floor and walk away. I do not touch it until I'm ready to put it in to the fermenter.

In summer, it takes 24 hours to cool to reasonable pitching temps. In winter it takes perhaps 18 hours. I usually let it go 24 hours because the the real wort starter needs the time anyway. I don't let it go more than 24 hours; why temp fate?

I have tried pouring from the pot which (hard due to the size and weight) and I've racked using an autosiphon (easier process but takes longer to transfer and allows you to keep more hops in the boil kettle instead of in the fermenter).

I know some people ferment in their boil bots with good results. I like to keep the pot free for bi-weekly brewing so I don't. But I would absolutely do it without hesitation if I thought it would make my life simpler.

There is a lot of heat in the freshly boiled wort, and I feel good that with proper sanitisation and care, no harm comes to the wort in the short term.

I like the connection I feel to the early brewing techniques, especially those used in America in the late 19th and early 20th century.
 
nutty_gnome said:
..When done, I cap the pot with a heavy, tight lid that has been sanitized (I also spray the the inside upper walls of the pot a little). I then carry the pot (about 50-60 pounds I suppose) down into my basement and put it on the concrete floor and walk away. I do not touch it until I'm ready to put it in to the fermenter.
Click to expand...
My set-up is very similar: I boil on my kitchen stove-top. The pot is too heavy for me to lift. When finished, I just put the pot lid on it that has been sanitized. I also wrap the pot/lid edge with saran wrap (not sure it is necessary; it just makes me feel better). It takes ~24 hours to cool. There is a lot of condensation on the lid when I re-open it. I usually brew on Saturday and pitch on Sunday.
 
I just wanted to say that I have done this for my past 4 brews. The two I have had have been great. There are no off flavors, etc. I just keep my wort in the pot and put the lid on. Then I siphon it out the next morning into a Corny (where I ferment). I am sure I could dump it into the corny and let it cool in there, but thats not worth it for me. There is no reason to not just leave it in the pot(unless you're saving it for pitching later).

I want to say thanks for everyone that pioneered this for home brewing. Its saves me time and water. Very cool! Or is that no cool...
 

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