Rebel IPA, Sam's West Coast Interpretation

I'm drinking some more of this beer, and find the only commercial IPA that I've had that was similar is Ranger IPA.

I've only brewed 5 so far, and one of my first had a balanced hop schedule and the others had a much higher concentration in the late additions. From what I noticed it seems that with a more balanced hop schedule you get a more bitter IPA, but with the bulk of the hops coming in the late additions you get what to me appears to be the West coast style.

I like both, though I do seem to prefer the unbalanced late hop addition types of IPA.

So my question is whether or not Sam Adam's interpretation of a West coast IPA is correct or not.

The west coast ipa hop flavor flavor is there and it doesn't taste bad. Although, it's a little on the mild side for a west coast example.

So then is the West coast style not about a huge flavor/aroma presence but hop type?

There's the British IPA, which is far different, but is there another American style besides West coast? I took it as what I found when I balanced my hop schedule to be what might be called a standard American IPA style.

I must profess ignorance though as I've only really been into drinking craft beers and enjoying the different styles for nearly 3 years now. Beforehand the only non lager beer I had had was Foster's ESB.

It is not even close to a west coast IPA. West coast IPAs are aggressive with bitterness, have a bold aroma, and very hop forward. Rebel IPA is neither of those.

Edit: The other style is simply just American IPA.

rodwha said:

So then is the West coast style not about a huge flavor/aroma presence but hop type?

There's the British IPA, which is far different, but is there another American style besides West coast? I took it as what I found when I balanced my hop schedule to be what might be called a standard American IPA style.

I must profess ignorance though as I've only really been into drinking craft beers and enjoying the different styles for nearly 3 years now. Beforehand the only non lager beer I had had was Foster's ESB.

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West Coast IPAs are really just regional. Here on the west coast we drink our IPAs super hoppy with less malt presence. Generally speaking, IPAs away from the west coast tend to be maltier (think DFH 60min from Delaware), but that's not a set in stone rule (think Bells Two Hearted from Michigan). However, they all fall into the American IPA category.

Also, any citrusy/piney American hop variety would be appropriate in any American IPA, west/east/north/south/whatever.

I wouldn't be surprise if West Coast IPA eventually becomes it own style in the BJCP.

I think you are on the right track with West Coast IPA being less malty. The rules aren't set in stone, but Mitch Steele the head brewmaster from Stone advises people to make IPAs less malty. The ideal is to have a dry highly fermentable wort profile with crystal malts making up less than 5% of grist. He isn't the only one on the West Coast that makes IPA that way.

Dry hopping is also more pronounced in West Coast style and hop selection favors hops that are traditionally northwest varieties such as Cascade, Centennial, Chinook, Citra, Amarillo, Simcoe, Mosaic, Warrior and several others.

Just my two cents. Correct me if I'm wrong.

IL1kebeer said:

West Coast IPAs are really just regional. Here on the west coast we drink our IPAs super hoppy with less malt presence. Generally speaking, IPAs away from the west coast tend to be maltier (think DFH 60min from Delaware), but that's not a set in stone rule (think Bells Two Hearted from Michigan). However, they all fall into the American IPA category.

Also, any citrusy/piney American hop variety would be appropriate in any American IPA, west/east/north/south/whatever.

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brewerelated said:

I wouldn't be surprise if West Coast IPA eventually becomes it own style in the BJCP.



I think you are on the right track with West Coast IPA being less malty. The rules aren't set in stone, but Mitch Steele the head brewmaster from Stone advises people to make IPAs less malty. The ideal is to have a dry highly fermentable wort profile with crystal malts making up less than 5% of grist. He isn't the only one on the West Coast that makes IPA that way.



Dry hopping is also more pronounced in West Coast style and hop selection favors hops that are traditionally northwest varieties such as Cascade, Centennial, Chinook, Citra, Amarillo, Simcoe, Mosaic, Warrior and several others.



Just my two cents correct me if I'm wrong.

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I completely agree. I don't make my American IPAs malty, and I don't purchase or drink malty IPAs either. IMO they should have decent malt support and have it end there. I also prefer them dry. Let the hops shine and you will have a great American IPA.

But remember. Dry and malty are two different things. You can have a dry beer that is malty and a dry beer that isn't malty. For example: Stone Levitation, which is a hoppy Amber ale, is malty and it's still very dry.

Going back to Rebel IPA. Seems dry and not too malty, but it sure isn't as aggressive with the hops as a west coast IPA should be.

Personally I don't care if an IPA is East coast, West Coast, or English style - as long as it's good.
Does Rebel match up perfectly with the best of the WEst Coast IPAS? like Sculpin, Sucks, Pliny and so on? No. IS it better than some of the more mediocre ones? I think so.
I have no problem drinking Rebel if it's the best option available. Don't know if I'd actually buy a 6 or 12 pack of it, but I don't think it's a bad beer by any stretch. SAs mistake here may just be in what to call it.

Agreed, dry and malty isn't the same. West Coast should have some malt character without being sweet. A lot of American IPA recipes can be altered to be more West Coast like by reducing crystal or caramel malt and replacing some of it with Munich malt.

IL1kebeer said:

I completely agree. I don't make my American IPAs malty, and I don't purchase or drink malty IPAs either. IMO they should have decent malt support and have it end there. I also prefer them dry. Let the hops shine and you will have a great American IPA.

But remember. Dry and malty are two different things. You can have a dry beer that is malty and a dry beer that isn't malty. For example: Stone Levitation, which is a hoppy Amber ale, is malty and it's still very dry.

Going back to Rebel IPA. Seems dry and not too malty, but it sure isn't as aggressive with the hops as a west coast IPA should be.

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Please explain further the malty/dry aspect. I've only looked at it from the hop schedule perspective.

Being down here in Texas we generally don't get a large variety of far flung smaller brewery beer, though I do get plenty of Alaskan.

Dry just means that the beer isn't sweet. A good example is the difference between dry wine or champagne and sweet ones. Hops really go well with dry beers, and that's why it's recommended that American IPAs finish dry.

Malty means that you are getting a lot of malt flavor in the beer. This can come from the different malts that you use and their amounts. Munich, Maris Otter, Victory, Chocolate, etc. are examples of malts that you can use to make your beers more malty. In small amounts, some of these lighter malts will add complexity without overwhelming the flavor profile, and IMO a nice American IPA should have a little bit less than that.

Dryness is associated with lower final gravity. Dryness can be accentuated with higher carbonation levels as well.

Maltiness is flavor that are derived from malts. There is often confusion between the dryness and maltiness because they can be related. Malts can effect dryness. If you have a lot of unfermentable malts your beer will be maltier and less dry. So sometimes people associate maltiness with less dry, but as stated earlier by IL1kebeer:

But remember. Dry and malty are two different things. You can have a dry beer that is malty and a dry beer that isn't malty. For example: Stone Levitation, which is a hoppy Amber ale, is malty and it's still very dry.

Munich Malt is one of those malts that can provide some malt flavor yet it has enough diastic power to at least convert itself. Thus you can still get dryness and maltiness.

I hope that is not confusing.

I was a bit disappointed with the Sam Adams attempt. They used some appropriate hops, but it is the worst example of a west coast IPA using those hops I've tried. Just another example of the inability of a large brewery to do what a good craft brewery can do.

I've brewed IPA's with a high crystal content and it still didn't come across as sweet.

Maybe I've been too focused on the hop profile…

But how does this correlate with a standard American IPA and a West coast style?

I certainly don't get sweet or malty from Ranger either. It's quite bitter and grapefruity.

The bitterness, maltiness, and alcohol does a good job of limiting the perception of sweetness, but in general American IPA according to style can have some sweetness while West Coast IPA tend to not have much sweetness. Hence, the substitution of Munich malt for some of the Crystal / Caramel malt.

14B. American IPA

Aroma: A prominent to intense hop aroma with a citrusy, floral, perfume-like, resinous, piney, and/or fruity character derived from American hops. Many versions are dry hopped and can have an additional grassy aroma, although this is not required. Some clean malty sweetness may be found in the background, but should be at a lower level than in English examples. Fruitiness, either from esters or hops, may also be detected in some versions, although a neutral fermentation character is also acceptable. Some alcohol may be noted.

Of course West Coast IPA is not a BJCP style so I am not speaking officially. I am just speaking from my experience of tasting IPA's here on the West Coast. Also this is definitely a style that is still being debated and refined.

brewerelated said:

The bitterness, maltiness, and alcohol does a good job of limiting the perception of sweetness, but in general American IPA according to style can have some sweetness while West Coast IPA tend to not have much sweetness. Hence, the substitution of Munich malt for some of the Crystal / Caramel malt.

14B. American IPA

Aroma: A prominent to intense hop aroma with a citrusy, floral, perfume-like, resinous, piney, and/or fruity character derived from American hops. Many versions are dry hopped and can have an additional grassy aroma, although this is not required. Some clean malty sweetness may be found in the background, but should be at a lower level than in English examples. Fruitiness, either from esters or hops, may also be detected in some versions, although a neutral fermentation character is also acceptable. Some alcohol may be noted.

Of course West Coast IPA is not a BJCP style so I am not speaking officially. I am just speaking from my experience of tasting IPA's here on the West Coast. Also this is definitely a style that is still being debated and refined.

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I know BJCP entertains new styles. Not as frequently as, say, the international Olympic committee, but...

Anyway, at any competition I've been to in the west, 14B is the most entered category. A large number of categories don't get any entries.

It'd be grand if they split out west coast IPA, but only if they eliminated some other category. Hop combinations can make as much difference as malts do, yet a base without a lot of complicated maltiness going on is needed to fully appreciate hop complexity. And the west coast "style" is one of the few that achieves that.

RichBenn said:

Hop combinations can make as much difference as malts do, yet a base without a lot of complicated maltiness going on is needed to fully appreciate hop complexity. And the west coast "style" is one of the few that achieves that.

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I agree with RichBenn. Some people see West Coast IPA's as just "Hop Bombs" that lack the balance of traditional or American IPA. They see it as a style that lacks the complexity and refinement, but West Coast IPA's can be very sophisticated.

The West Coast IPA style might not be a BJCP style, but there is definitely a spirit and a philosophy behind it. That philosophy is to let the hops be the star of the show. Every other ingredient and process is designed to support and help showcase the hops. Sometimes you can showcase something by balancing it against something else i.e. balancing hop bitterness with high alcohol, but sometimes you showcase something by muting other things, so that the hops can speak for themselves--say reducing the sweetness and body.

Can a West coast IPA get it's 70 IBU's with a more even hop schedule where the bitterness is certainly pronounced?

For instance if I could achieve 70 IBU's using 1 1/2 oz of a variety (all equal for the sake of the argument) at 60/20/5 mins?

When I have done this I get a very bitter taste not unlike Ranger IPA.

Instead what I usually do is use 1 oz at 60 and 1 3/4 oz at 20/5 mins, which gives me the nice common hoppy IPA.

We just starting getting Rebel IPA here in my neck of the woods recently. Had it on tap first and then went and bought some in the bottle. Both I thought were very good. Drinking one now. The hop aroma and flavor are not huge, but I think it really works for me.

I am glad I searched for "Rebel" and found this thread. I have been on a "IPA only" kick for a long time now in my brewing and drinking. This is the style that appeals to me the most at this time. I used to love DFH 60, then thought they must have changed the recipe. I then realized later that it was the malt profile that I no longer cared for. I now know my favorite style has a name. West Coast. I love these IPA's.

What's the difference between Caramel 40 (or 60) and Crystal 40 (or 60)?

Which one should be most used for a West Coast style IPA?

Who has a good West Coast style IPA recipe they would like to share or link to?

It's the same crystal/caramel.

I think my IPA's have been somewhere in the middle, though my first few were more "American" in that I used plenty of crystal malts, though the hops and schedule seems more "West coast."

IPA's would have to be my favorite as well, but looking back my last IPA was a Cascadian Dark brewed on 1-24-13! And my next 2 brews will be a dark strong hybrid and a hoppy strong honey wheat. Seems I need to reprioritize!

Yambor44 said:

We just starting getting Rebel IPA here in my neck of the woods recently. Had it on tap first and then went and bought some in the bottle. Both I thought were very good. Drinking one now. The hop aroma and flavor are not huge, but I think it really works for me.

I am glad I searched for "Rebel" and found this thread. I have been on a "IPA only" kick for a long time now in my brewing and drinking. This is the style that appeals to me the most at this time. I used to love DFH 60, then thought they must have changed the recipe. I then realized later that it was the malt profile that I no longer cared for. I now know my favorite style has a name. West Coast. I love these IPA's.

What's the difference between Caramel 40 (or 60) and Crystal 40 (or 60)?

Which one should be most used for a West Coast style IPA?

Who has a good West Coast style IPA recipe they would like to share or link to?

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IMHO, search for clones of Russian River's Blind Pig (IPA), and Pliny the Elder (IIPA).

Pliny the Elder is consistently rated at the top on both Ratebeer.com and BeerAdvocate.com

Vinnie of Russian river says to not use more than 5% crystal malt. The hop complexity gets lost much beyond that, in my experience. This supports many of the prior comments.

There are many other great west coast IPAs, but Russian River is a good place to start the adventure.

I just kegged my first Pliney Clone. Found a recipe for Blind Pig I just typed into BTP and mosified a tad to up the IBU's to where I thought they should be (Minimum).

I used grams for the hops as i didn't feel like converting. What do you all think?

Blind Pig IPA #126
14-B American IPA
Date: 3/6/14

Size: 11.0*gal
Efficiency: 80.0%
Attenuation: 83.0%
Calories: 197.01*kcal per 12.0*fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.060 (1.056 - 1.075)
Terminal Gravity: 1.010 (1.010 - 1.018)
Color: 8.18 (6.0 - 15.0)
Alcohol: 6.52% (5.5% - 7.5%)
Bitterness: 41.4 (40.0 - 70.0)

Ingredients:
22*lb (95.7%) Pale Ale Malt - added during mash
8*oz (2.2%) 2-Row Caramel Malt 40L - added during mash
8*oz (2.2%) Cara-Pils® Malt - added during mash
24*g (13.2%) Chinook (9.9%) - added during boil, boiled 90*m
24*g (13.2%) Columbus 12.9 (12.9%) - added during boil, boiled 90*m
24*g (13.2%) Amarillo Pellet 8.2% (8.2%) - added during boil, boiled 30*m
14*g (7.7%) Amarillo Pellet 8.2% (8.2%) - added during boil
14*g (7.7%) Cascade 6.4 (6.4%) - added during boil
14*g (7.7%) Centennial 8.1% (8.7%) - added during boil
14*g (7.7%) Simcoe 13.1% (13.1%) - added during boil
18*g (9.9%) Amarillo Pellet 8.2% (8.2%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
18*g (9.9%) Columbus 12.9 (12.9%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
18*g (9.9%) Cascade 6.4 (6.4%) - added dry to secondary fermenter


Notes
Add 4 grams table salt and 7grams Gypsum to mash. 60 minute mash. Mash at 148º.
Let all zero minute hops steep for 10 minutes before chilling.

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 2.0.5

What 'east coast' IPA is malty? Lagunitas on the west coast has the 'maltiest' ipa's by far that I have ever had. Green Flash West Coast IPA has 8% carapils and 8% carastan so 16% crystal malts and it is still dry, delicious and not cloying or sweet. All the 'west coast' ipa's that people compare things to are not IPA's! An IPA is not 8-15% ABV. You cannot compare those monster double/imperial/triple IPA's to a 5.6%-7%ABV IPA. There are some beers out there that are really English IPA's that are called American IPA's because the snobs go crazy when there is any hop other than Fuggles/EKG in an 'English' style.

Rebel IPA is pretty good beer for an IPA. I got a case that was definitely fresh and it tastes great. Who cares what style they call it. It's a mass marketed item, not a small 3-10 barrel brewhouse specialty. I for one am grateful that Sam Adam's does not mass produce an IPA with 10lbs of hops per barrel because there would be a major squeeze on great hop varieties Simcoe, Chinook, Citra, Amarillo, Mosaic for the rest of us based on the quantities they brew.