4000w enough for Keggle Brewing??

Ok so originally I was gonna go with a Camco 5500w element, PID, blah, blah, blah. But a separation has put me into an apartment without 240v readily available. I do however have 2 20amp circuits able to be used. I have 2 2000w elements ready to go into my keggle. I have read differing opinions about the amount of energy to boil 5 or 10 gallons in a keggle. I plan to primarily doing 5 gallon batches for now. Do you think the shape of the keggle will be adequate to do a 5 gallon batch with my elements? I prefer to use both to get to a boil then switch to 1 to maintain. Ideas? Thanks

BTW...I have a Camco 5500w element already epoxied into a coupler with a dryer cord attached and a PID with two SSR's and heatsinks for sale.

4000w will easily do 5 gallons and likely 10 with a little patience...if you are impatient, simply wrap a few towels around the keggle for insulation.

Do you think I will be able to shut off one element to maintain boil or keep both on the whole time? Obviously testing will tell me this, but the JB Weld is still drying.

Mmmm, having only 2000W for a 5-6gal boil is doable but not ideal. You will be able to maintain a boil but it will be pretty weak without insulation. I can maintain a nice rolling boil with 2 x 1500W heatsticks in my keggle when I do a 5-6gal batch with no insulation. With 4000W I think you could maintain a nice healthy boil on a 10-12gal batch with no issues.

liljimmynorton said:

Ok so originally I was gonna go with a Camco 5500w element, PID, blah, blah, blah. But a separation has put me into an apartment without 240v readily available. I do however have 2 20amp circuits able to be used. I have 2 2000w elements ready to go into my keggle. I have read differing opinions about the amount of energy to boil 5 or 10 gallons in a keggle. I plan to primarily doing 5 gallon batches for now. Do you think the shape of the keggle will be adequate to do a 5 gallon batch with my elements? I prefer to use both to get to a boil then switch to 1 to maintain. Ideas? Thanks

BTW...I have a Camco 5500w element already epoxied into a coupler with a dryer cord attached and a PID with two SSR's and heatsinks for sale.

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear about the seperation. I might be able to help with the PID and SSRs. PM me with more information?

I don't know how it translates, but with a 13 gallon boil, I had my 4500 watt element turned at least half way down, it was still a good rolling boil.

4000 watts should easily do a 10-12 gallon batch.


_

liljimmynorton said:

... I have .... a PID with two SSR's and heatsinks for sale.

Click to expand...

Wait - Wait. Don't sell the PID and SSRs. Use them to control your 2 elements that will be running on your 2 independent 120V circuits. The PID will allow you to both, control by temperature and by % of power using manual mode.

How about this: (Click on the image for a larger picture)

P-J to the rescue with another fancy wiring diagram!

I use two 2000 watt elements in my HLT, and two 2000 watt heatsticks in my BK (until I get around to mounting elements in it, too).

Last batch I brewed was 13 gallons. It took about 30 minutes to reach a roiling boil (starting with about 150*F wort). I generally leave one heatstick on, and switch the other off and on as needed.

The two elements in the HLT get my mash and sparge water up to temp in right around 20 minutes.

This is with uninsulated keggles. Once I make lids and add a layer or two of reflectix, I expect my times will improve.

Cpt_Kirks said:

I use two 2000 watt elements in my HLT, and two 2000 watt heatsticks in my BK (until I get around to mounting elements in it, too).

Last batch I brewed was 13 gallons. It took about 30 minutes to reach a roiling boil (starting with about 150*F wort). I generally leave one heatstick on, and switch the other off and on as needed.

The two elements in the HLT get my mash and sparge water up to temp in right around 20 minutes.

This is with uninsulated keggles. Once I make lids and add a layer or two of reflectix, I expect my times will improve.

Click to expand...

So do you boil with one heatstick or two? How much do you boil off in 60mins?

wyzazz said:

So do you boil with one heatstick or two? How much do you boil off in 60mins?

Click to expand...

I use two heasticks for the boil, one stays on, the other is manually cycled to control the boil.

I boil off between 1.5 and 2 gallons in 60min. I have my sight gauge calibrated now, so I can see how much is boiling off better.

P-J said:

Wait - Wait. Don't sell the PID and SSRs. Use them to control your 2 elements that will be running on your 2 independent 120V circuits. The PID will allow you to both, control by temperature and by % of power using manual mode.

How about this: (Click on the image for a larger picture)

Click to expand...

Hey, I just got a chance to get on and the pic is not coming up. Do you still have it so I can see it. I honestly hadn't even thought about using it, just figured I'd use simple switches.

liljimmynorton said:

Hey, I just got a chance to get on and the pic is not coming up. Do you still have it so I can see it. I honestly hadn't even thought about using it, just figured I'd use simple switches.

Click to expand...

So sorry. I took all of my diagrams down. I did not mean to exclude you.

It seems that a moderator has judged me so I figured why bother, So I took them all down as the mod seems to think I have no value.

Sorry.

Just refresh your browser. I have relinked the diagram for you.

P-J

P-J said:

It seems that a moderator has judged me so I figured why bother, So I took them all down as the mod seems to think I have no value.

I have relinked the diagram for you.

P-J

Click to expand...

You are awesome. Thanks, now maybe I can go a different direction. This is what the forums are for, helping others thing in ways they might not normally. Value Added.

liljimmynorton said:

You are awesome. Thanks, now maybe I can go a different direction. This is what the forums are for, helping others think in ways they might not normally. Value Added.

Click to expand...

You are more than welcome. It pleases me a great deal that I can be of some help to you and others on this forum.

I'm still pi**ed at the mod that sensored me.

I'll get over it. I'm way too old for this crap.

I have a 4500 watt ULWD Ripp in my BK and I can get from 153 to boiling in a lot less than 30 mins on a 5 gal batch. I've only tested with water on my new RIMs setup. I've heard others state they have to set it back to 60% duty cycle to get the boil under control once boiling.

P-J said:

Wait - Wait. Don't sell the PID and SSRs. Use them to control your 2 elements that will be running on your 2 independent 120V circuits. The PID will allow you to both, control by temperature and by % of power using manual mode.

How about this: (Click on the image for a larger picture)

Click to expand...

Would you still want to use 40a ssrs or could you drop to the 25a since you're running the 120v lines?

Backporchbrewery said:

Would you still want to use 40a ssrs or could you drop to the 25a since you're running the 120v lines?

Click to expand...

You could use the 40a SSR's without an issue as well as the 25a SSR's if you wanted, for the price difference & the heat difference I'd just use the 40's.

My BK has a 4500w element which I use to boil 10g batches. I only use 100% power when getting to a boil and after that I have to ramp it down to avoid too much evaporation. 4000w should be plenty. Might just take you a bit longer to get to boil...

wyzazz said:

You could use the 40a SSR's without an issue as well as the 25a SSR's if you wanted, for the price difference & the heat difference I'd just use the 40's.

Click to expand...

Thanks! I didn't think about the heat difference, but makes much more sense now.

wyzazz said:

You could use the 40a SSR's without an issue as well as the 25a SSR's if you wanted, for the price difference & the heat difference I'd just use the 40's.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I can't see why I'd sell the 40's just to buy 25's. But since I am using 40's do you think I could do so with out the heatsink. Or should i be safe andjust use them.

You're gonna want those heat sinks dude...

liljimmynorton said:

Yeah, I can't see why I'd sell the 40's just to buy 25's. But since I am using 40's do you think I could do so with out the heatsink. Or should i be safe andjust use them.

Click to expand...

I'd use the heatsinks.

Yeah thats what i figured. I already have them why not use them. Was just wondering depending on space contraints. Better to be safe right?

not meaning to revive an old thread, but this is EXACTLY what I want to do as I don't have 240 available either !

I'm still researching, and have a lot to learn, but how would the control panel be built with an emergency off switch, i like the idea of an easy off if the **** hits the fan..

also, would you need to run a separate 120v to the control panel to run a pump ?

Thanks for your help, P-J your diagrams are awesome !

joeybeer said:

not meaning to revive an old thread, but this is EXACTLY what I want to do as I don't have 240 available either !

I'm still researching, and have a lot to learn, but how would the control panel be built with an emergency off switch, i like the idea of an easy off if the **** hits the fan..

also, would you need to run a separate 120v to the control panel to run a pump ?

Thanks for your help, P-J your diagrams are awesome !

Click to expand...

How about this setup? (I just finished modifying the drawing for you)

(Please click on the image to see a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper 11" x 17")



I hope this helps you.

P-J

P-J said:

How about this setup? (I just finished modifying the drawing for you)

I hope this helps you.

P-J

Click to expand...

Interesting, very cool P-J!

P-J said:

How about this setup? (I just finished modifying the drawing for you)

(Please click on the image to see a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper 11" x 17")



I hope this helps you.

P-J

Click to expand...

This diagram is exactly what I need. It will definitely help me for building my HLT.

Thank you P-J.

PJ, Pretty much a total electrical dummy here, but I get most of your schematics with the exception of the Estop circuits. I am probably missing something very obvious to most, but it appears the switch is set up to direct one leg of AC to ground? In some of the schematics I have seen, you are using a fuse in the circuit. Is the idea to blow the fuse when you push the estop?

Like others, I appreciate all the help you provide to the community.

KWiK said:

PJ, Pretty much a total electrical dummy here, but I get most of your schematics with the exception of the Estop circuits. I am probably missing something very obvious to most, but it appears the switch is set up to direct one leg of AC to ground? In some of the schematics I have seen, you are using a fuse in the circuit. Is the idea to blow the fuse when you push the estop?

Like others, I appreciate all the help you provide to the community.

Click to expand...

Yes - the E-Stop circuit directs a small current to ground. This current will trip the GFCI circuit breaker powering the brewery controller and this cuts all power to it. Please keep in mind that it is critical for anyone setting up an electric brewery that it be GFCI protected. It generally has 240V present within it and, by function and nature, is in a wet area. Also, even the diagram I posted in this thread would have 240V present within the controller. Why? How about if it is set up in the kitchen using alternate outlets along the countertop. If so, it has 240V within the controller.

Now on to my choice to place a fuse in the E-Stop circuit. I do that to prevent problems that might happen in the wiring of the panel set up. Once the circuit is wired and tested, the fuse does not matter any more. A wiring error, however, could be a problem. So, it was a safety for those that are new to this adventure.

IMHO..

P-J

Thanks, that makes more sense, that it is tripping the breaker. I was planning on tying the E Stop to a 40 amp contactor coil. Any thoughts on that type of setup?

Thanks again.

KWiK said:

...
I was planning on tying the E Stop to a 40 amp contactor coil. Any thoughts on that type of setup?
...

Click to expand...

I would not do that. If you choose to go that route, please keep in mind that raw power will still be present within your controller when you disable power through that type of solution.

An E-Stop, after all, stands for "Emergency Stop". No?

Sorry to resurrect this thread yet again, but P-J's second diagram looks like it might work for me, and I had just a few questions.

I'm looking at putting together a 120v eBIAB system, and I was wondering if this system could work like this:

1. Run both burners in automatic mode to bring the water to strike temperature;
2. Run one burner in automatic mode to maintain the temp during mash while running the pump to recycle the hot liquor;
3. Run both burners in automatic mode to bring the hot liquor close to the boil;
4. Run both burners in manual mode to finish the boil.

I'm still trying to learn everything I can about electric brewing, and the actual functioning of the PID is still something I'm fuzzy on.

Thanks.

lrdgrifter said:

Sorry to resurrect this thread yet again, but P-J's second diagram looks like it might work for me, and I had just a few questions.

I'm looking at putting together a 120v eBIAB system, and I was wondering if this system could work like this:

1. Run both burners in automatic mode to bring the water to strike temperature;
2. Run one burner in automatic mode to maintain the temp during mash while running the pump to recycle the hot liquor;
3. Run both burners in automatic mode to bring the hot liquor close to the boil;
4. Run both burners in manual mode to finish the boil.

I'm still trying to learn everything I can about electric brewing, and the actual functioning of the PID is still something I'm fuzzy on.

Thanks.

Click to expand...

That is exactly how you would do it with that setup.

P-J

Thanks for the reassurance, P-J.

I'm still reading up on electric brewing. Is there a method of controlling the element such as you control your stove burner, like a dial you can simply turn up or down rather than a more complicated controller? I'd just like the ability to turn the heat up/down to control the boil but don't necessarily need exact temperature control...yet. I mash in a cooler, so I'd just want to be able to heat strike, sparge and BK as I would on a stove...but without the stove!

tre9er said:

I'm still reading up on electric brewing. Is there a method of controlling the element such as you control your stove burner, like a dial you can simply turn up or down rather than a more complicated controller? I'd just like the ability to turn the heat up/down to control the boil but don't necessarily need exact temperature control...yet. I mash in a cooler, so I'd just want to be able to heat strike, sparge and BK as I would on a stove...but without the stove!

Click to expand...

Yes. You need something similar to this:
http://www.stilldragon.com/diy-controller.html

Agreed, but if it's in the budget, an extra $50 gets you a PID and temp probe so that you can set a target temp and walk away.

wrong thread... =(