EZ Water Calculator 3.0

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Bru'n Water has the calculator for different acids. The main acid calculator is on the Sparge Acidification page. The Water Adjustment page only includes a few liquid acids and no solid acids like Citric so there is not an easy way to calculate how much Citric you should use in the mash. The next version of Bru'n Water will allow a variety of acids to also be used in the sparge and mash calculations.

Working from the Sparge Acidfication sheet in Bru'n Water. I think you should be able to figure out the equivalency of an acid to Lactic acid so that it could then be used in EZ Water.

PS: All the acid calcs are courtesy of AJ Delange.
 
-TH- said:
At what time into the mash (sacc rest) are you taking your reading? Also make sure the sample is at room temp.

Otherwise I would need to see the recipe. At the very least, what is the base malt for that recipe? My hunch is the dist. water mash ph of your base malt is not the same as what the spreadsheet has for it. You can tweak this on the spreadsheet and once you get it close your results should be quite favorable.
Click to expand...

It was near the end of the mash(I think). It was, like I said above, room temp by time the reading was taken.

I think this was when I was using GW Pale as the base(about 3 SRM), probably 9-10 lbs. Other than that, I would guess it was about 12 oz of crystal 60, and a little (1/2 lb?) carapils? It was a Pale Ale, so it'd be close to this.

Unfortunately, I'm not certain; I can't find the original recipe. I'll have to test my next batch, assuming my pH meter isn't dead(they seem to do that over time).

Rich
 
just a quick question - why do I get different mash ph data in versions 2.0 and 3.0

Input numbers are the same, but version 2.0 gives me ph 5.41, while the version 3.0 calculates ph 5.72

which one is more accurate, and why do I have higher ph in the latest version of the calculator?

thanks!
 
400d said:
just a quick question - why do I get different mash ph data in versions 2.0 and 3.0

Input numbers are the same, but version 2.0 gives me ph 5.41, while the version 3.0 calculates ph 5.72

which one is more accurate, and why do I have higher ph in the latest version of the calculator?

thanks!
Click to expand...

Based on my ph meter comparison, 3 has been accurate for me. I would trust 3 more, personally.
 
afr0byte said:
Based on my ph meter comparison, 3 has been accurate for me. I would trust 3 more, personally.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your answer. I'll trust the latest version. One more thing: my water report states sulfates as "SO4 2-"

should I multiply it by 3 or not??
 
400d said:
just a quick question - why do I get different mash ph data in versions 2.0 and 3.0

Input numbers are the same, but version 2.0 gives me ph 5.41, while the version 3.0 calculates ph 5.72

which one is more accurate, and why do I have higher ph in the latest version of the calculator?

thanks!
Click to expand...

Read the first post in this thread. Version 3 is an attempt to provide a more accurate (and by extension, different) pH calculation than version 2.
 
400d said:
Thanks for your answer. I'll trust the latest version. One more thing: my water report states sulfates as "SO4 2-"

should I multiply it by 3 or not??
Click to expand...

It appears the sulfate is reported 'as sulfate' and not as sulfur. When reported as sulfur, its more likely to be shown as 'SO4-S'. The 2- is probably referring to the typical -2 charge on this ion.
 
Hello TH, thanks for all you effort on the tool.
I have started using EZ3.0 and noticed it was over predicting my PH and before I could comment on this I waited to get more data so we could (or not) make any sense of this.
I have a Milwaukee MW102 PH meter that I calibrate everytime I use. I take mash samples at 15min into the mash. Samples are used when close to 25C.
I have compiled the data for my last 13 batches, all light beers, that I started adjusting my water with EZ calculator. Last 5 batches I used EZ3.0, but I went back and calculated the predicted PH using both 2.0 and 3.0 for each recipe.
Basically, EZ3.0 is over preciting a lot. Although EZ2.0 was also over predicting, it was much closer.
I'm not sure if there is any pattern on this data, just wanted to share and see what you think.

EZ_Comp.jpg
 
nilo said:
Hello TH, thanks for all you effort on the tool.
I have started using EZ3.0 and noticed it was over predicting my PH and before I could comment on this I waited to get more data so we could (or not) make any sense of this.
I have a Milwaukee MW102 PH meter that I calibrate everytime I use. I take mash samples at 15min into the mash. Samples are used when close to 25C.
I have compiled the data for my last 13 batches, all light beers, that I started adjusting my water with EZ calculator. Last 5 batches I used EZ3.0, but I went back and calculated the predicted PH using both 2.0 and 3.0 for each recipe.
Basically, EZ3.0 is over preciting a lot. Although EZ2.0 was also over predicting, it was much closer.
I'm not sure if there is any pattern on this data, just wanted to share and see what you think.
Click to expand...

So far (two data points) I've found 3.0 to be quite close...closer than 2.0...though one was a stout, the other an amber....interesting to see you're getting the opposite results
 
nilo said:
Hello TH, thanks for all you effort on the tool.
I have started using EZ3.0 and noticed it was over predicting my PH and before I could comment on this I waited to get more data so we could (or not) make any sense of this.
I have a Milwaukee MW102 PH meter that I calibrate everytime I use. I take mash samples at 15min into the mash. Samples are used when close to 25C.
I have compiled the data for my last 13 batches, all light beers, that I started adjusting my water with EZ calculator. Last 5 batches I used EZ3.0, but I went back and calculated the predicted PH using both 2.0 and 3.0 for each recipe.
Basically, EZ3.0 is over preciting a lot. Although EZ2.0 was also over predicting, it was much closer.
I'm not sure if there is any pattern on this data, just wanted to share and see what you think.
Click to expand...

What kind/brand of base malt are you using? I would bet if you bumped the dist. water mash ph down in your spreadsheet for base malt by about .3, you would be much much closer.
 
TH, I use mostly Briess 2Row, latelly using Gambrinus 2row. The base malts also include Vienna and munich malts. Many recipes use carapils (usually 1/2lb), which I assumed to be a base malt (other).
I'm not sure I understood your suggestion.
 
nilo said:
TH, I use mostly Briess 2Row, latelly using Gambrinus 2row. The base malts also include Vienna and munich malts. Many recipes use carapils (usually 1/2lb), which I assumed to be a base malt (other).
I'm not sure I understood your suggestion.
Click to expand...

The distilled-water mash pH does vary from maltster to maltster and this can have a significant impact on your mash pH. The spreadsheet uses 5.7 by default, but Rahr for example is 5.56. You can modify the spreadsheet here:
ScreenShot0012.jpg


For example you could change the 5.7 to say 5.4 and I'll bet that your pH's will be much closer to actual. Of course better yet would be to test the distilled water mash pH of the 2-row that you use. I must admit however that I don't think briess is that low in reality since briess is the base malt that I use and my pH's aren't that low. I use acid malt to get my pH's in line and the spreadsheet it quite accurate for me using the 5.7 value.
 
TH - which base malt is 3.0 based upon? What you say about differences would explain the discrepancies if there is that much difference (.3 or more) from different malt makers. Then there is the issue of batch variance within a manufacturer (different crop years, different malting conditions, other variables)

Hmmm...Maybe we should run tests on new bags of base malt we purchase?

(The more I learn, the more I find I'm ignorant about....)
 
Is there a way to add NaCl to the salt additions so that the final water profile can show all additions? Thanks for the great spreadsheet! :mug:
 
If I wanted to test the distilled water pH of the specific grains I use, what water to grist ratio should I use? I would think that it would be my mash water to grist ratio but I did not want to assume. Thanks for the help.

Oh, also. Do rice hulls affect pH?
 
Beezer94 said:
Is there a way to add NaCl to the salt additions so that the final water profile can show all additions? Thanks for the great spreadsheet! :mug:
Click to expand...

I can do that, but I have been hesitant to do so up to this point mainly because NaCl does nothing for pH and the focus of EZ has moved toward pH adjustment as the primary objective and the adjustment of mineral levels (including Cl to SO4 ratio) as the secondary objective - and that is simply to keep the levels in check, usually as low as possible (other than Ca to a point and SO4 for certain styles like amer. ipa). I'm becoming more of a believer of "less is more" when it comes to salt additions and I have yet to see a convincing reason why adding NaCl is beneficial to brewing water at all. I suspect there might be a few cases, but right now I don't know what they are and therefore I don't want to put something on the spreadsheet that might mislead someone into unnecessarily using it.

So for now I will leave it off, but if you can show me some good evidence that it should be on there, I will reconsider. Or maybe I could even throw it on a special version just for "nacl users" or something like that since a few others besides yourselft have asked for this as well.

Cheers.
 
I just use NaCl because I like to add some chloride without adding any additional calcium, as my water is already high in that.
 
wbeeson23 said:
If I wanted to test the distilled water pH of the specific grains I use, what water to grist ratio should I use? I would think that it would be my mash water to grist ratio but I did not want to assume. Thanks for the help.
Click to expand...

Your normal water to grist ratio will be fine (unless it is very non-typical). Please report back with your findings!!!
 
-TH- said:
I can do that, but I have been hesitant to do so up to this point mainly because NaCl does nothing for pH and the focus of EZ has moved toward pH adjustment as the primary objective and the adjustment of mineral levels (including Cl to SO4 ratio) as the secondary objective - and that is simply to keep the levels in check, usually as low as possible (other than Ca to a point and SO4 for certain styles like amer. ipa). I'm becoming more of a believer of "less is more" when it comes to salt additions and I have yet to see a convincing reason why adding NaCl is beneficial to brewing water at all. I suspect there might be a few cases, but right now I don't know what they are and therefore I don't want to put something on the spreadsheet that might mislead someone into unnecessarily using it.

So for now I will leave it off, but if you can show me some good evidence that it should be on there, I will reconsider. Or maybe I could even throw it on a special version just for "nacl users" or something like that since a few others besides yourselft have asked for this as well.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Interesting, a cursory search and I can't find anything that points to need of sodium other than what has been said and repeated in homebrewing volumes. I found one paper, published in 1970, that reported that NaCl slowed down yeast growth as higher concentrations forced the cell to spend more energy on maintaining osmotic balance. It also caused the yeast to produce glycerol...which I don't know if that impacts beer negatively, just a finding. So, given my inability to find anything I'll give it a go with no NaCl and see if there is any negative impact with my waters 6ppm of sodium.

Effects of Sodium Chloride on Steady-state Growth and
Metabolism of Saccharomyces cerevisiae
By T. G. WATSON*
 
nilo said:
TH, I use mostly Briess 2Row, latelly using Gambrinus 2row. The base malts also include Vienna and munich malts. Many recipes use carapils (usually 1/2lb), which I assumed to be a base malt (other).
I'm not sure I understood your suggestion.
Click to expand...

I just want to make sure but are you saying that "Base Malt - Other" is briess's carapils malt?

I did distilled water mashes for Weyerman Pale Wheat - 5.78, Weyerman Pilsner - 5.62, Weyerman Munich II - 5.33, and Crisp Maris Otter - 5.60. My pH meter is (or says it is) accurate to +/- .01. I actually just bought a replacement probe prior to doing these tests. I will post more as I go.

I brewed 2 beers this past weekend and the spreadsheet was way more accurate after I inputted the data above. I had no idea there would be that much difference b/t maltsters. It would be nice if they included this info on the malt spec sheet. Thanks for all the hard work. A donation is forthcoming soon!

:mug:
 
wbeeson23 said:
I just want to make sure but are you saying that "Base Malt - Other" is briess's carapils malt?

I did distilled water mashes for Weyerman Pale Wheat - 5.78, Weyerman Pilsner - 5.62, Weyerman Munich II - 5.33, and Crisp Maris Otter - 5.60. My pH meter is (or says it is) accurate to +/- .01. I actually just bought a replacement probe prior to doing these tests. I will post more as I go.

I brewed 2 beers this past weekend and the spreadsheet was way more accurate after I inputted the data above. I had no idea there would be that much difference b/t maltsters. It would be nice if they included this info on the malt spec sheet. Thanks for all the hard work. A donation is forthcoming soon!

:mug:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the doing those! I really should start a thread to gather test data from brewers like yourself who are willing to do some distilled water test mashes. With enough pH data for malts from various maltsters, I could really make this spreadsheet accurate :D
 
I would be glad to add to that database. I have a fresh bag of Malteurop 2-row I'll be brewing with this weekend and I'd be glad to do a test mash. Is there a standard water/grain ratio & temperature used for such tests?
 
wbeeson23 said:
I just want to make sure but are you saying that "Base Malt - Other" is briess's carapils malt?

I did distilled water mashes for Weyerman Pale Wheat - 5.78, Weyerman Pilsner - 5.62, Weyerman Munich II - 5.33, and Crisp Maris Otter - 5.60. My pH meter is (or says it is) accurate to +/- .01. I actually just bought a replacement probe prior to doing these tests. I will post more as I go.

I brewed 2 beers this past weekend and the spreadsheet was way more accurate after I inputted the data above. I had no idea there would be that much difference b/t maltsters. It would be nice if they included this info on the malt spec sheet. Thanks for all the hard work. A donation is forthcoming soon!

:mug:
Click to expand...

My distilled water mash pH for Weyermann Pils and Munich II are quite a bit different (closer to 5.8 and 5.5, don't have the exact number handy). This would indicate one of us has a bad measurement, or there is huge bag to bag variability.
 
remilard said:
My distilled water mash pH for Weyermann Pils and Munich II are quite a bit different (closer to 5.8 and 5.5, don't have the exact number handy). This would indicate one of us has a bad measurement, or there is huge bag to bag variability.
Click to expand...

Kai's numbers for Weyermann pils were 5.76 and 5.75 (2 tests), and his Weyermann Munich II was 5.43.
 
MichaelBrock said:
I would be glad to add to that database. I have a fresh bag of Malteurop 2-row I'll be brewing with this weekend and I'd be glad to do a test mash. Is there a standard water/grain ratio & temperature used for such tests?
Click to expand...

Probably doesn't matter too much but maybe somewhere towards the middle of the normal operating ranges - like 153-156 mash temp and 1.25 - 1.50 qt/lb. 20 minutes should be plenty.

BTW Kai used a 63C (145F), 4 l/kg (1.9 qt/lb), 10 min mash for all his DI pH testing.
 
-TH- said:
Probably doesn't matter too much but maybe somewhere towards the middle of the normal operating ranges - like 153-156 mash temp and 1.25 - 1.50 qt/lb. 20 minutes should be plenty.

BTW Kai used a 63C (145F), 4 l/kg (1.9 qt/lb), 10 min mash for all his DI pH testing.
Click to expand...

I would imagine that the water to grist ratio does play with the pH. A tight 1:1 qt per lbs should yield a significantly lower pH than a 2:1.

My ratio was 1.4:1 and my mash temp was all over b/t 140 and 160. I did a full hour to replicate a full mash although it was probably unnecessary. My electric stovetop is very tricky to regulate a low temp. I could imagine the temp would have an affect but would think it would only be if it gets down to around 100 (acid rest).
 
A lot of good questions are being asked (or implied here)

1. How much variation is there from lot to lot/maltster to maltster/season to season?
2. When we calculate/estimate "mash pH" what phase of the mash are we talking about i.e beta glucan rest, protein rest, saccharification rest?
3. What is the duration at the rest temperature before the pH sample is pulled?
4. What is the water to grist ratio?
5. How good is the pH meter being used to make the measurement?

Clearly some variation would be suppressed if we had a standard MO for taking these measurements. The pros would dobtless use the Congress Mash program.
 
wbeeson23 said:
A tight 1:1 qt per lbs should yield a significantly lower pH than a 2:1.
Click to expand...
I'd be surprised if it made a significant difference (depending, of course, on your definition of "significant"). There are buffering systems at work here and these are resistant to dilution effect. That's part of the job of a buffer. There will, of course, be some change, but I'm guessing that it would be less than 0.1 pH.
 
ajdelange said:
I'd be surprised if it made a significant difference (depending, of course, on your definition of "significant"). There are buffering systems at work here and these are resistant to dilution effect. That's part of the job of a buffer. There will, of course, be some change, but I'm guessing that it would be less than 0.1 pH.
Click to expand...

Given the tight range of "ideal pH" being 5.4-5.6, a .1 swing is...well I guess a noticable difference. I would think it might be higher. I might try a 1:1 and 2:1 side by side next time I pick a grain for testing.

Oh, I do calibrate my meter before using to the 4.01 solution. It's the HM Digital HMDPH200 Waterproof PH and Temperature Meter

http://www.tdsmeter.com/products/ph200.html
 
ajdelange said:
I'd be surprised if it made a significant difference (depending, of course, on your definition of "significant"). There are buffering systems at work here and these are resistant to dilution effect. That's part of the job of a buffer. There will, of course, be some change, but I'm guessing that it would be less than 0.1 pH.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about that AJ. If the test mashes are with distilled water, then one less buffer system is involved. All that would really be left is the phosphate buffer system.

I notice that a Congress mash is incredibly thin. It starts out at over 1.9 qts per lb and is thinned out from there during the course of the testing. Considering that most brewers mash a little thicker than that, it could be a factor. In my view of this system, the malt provides a fixed amount of acidity. Diluting the mash should prevent the mash pH from dropping as far as if the mash were thicker.

Not having investigated this phenomena, I'm not disputing your 0.1 pH unit guess though! I wouldn't think it could be any higher than about 0.2 units.
 
mabrungard said:
I'm not sure about that AJ.
Click to expand...

Well of course I'm not sure about it either. It is a gut feel guess. Easy enough to check for a malt or 2 of course but I'm not at the home base and don't have any of the stuff I'd need to do an experiment.

My feel is based on the assumption that there are dozens of organic acids produced by kilning and it is these that establish mash pH (along with the phosphoric acid system in DI water and the phosphoric and carbonic in actual brewing waters with any appreciable alkalinity.)
 
I've been busy tonight :)
I made a bunch of pH test batches using 115g of grain infused with 0.5qt distilled water at 170F to hit about 153F in a small sauce pot and stuck it in the oven to maintain temp for 10 min. Then I filtered enough for a pH sample with a coffee filter, chilled it to around 65-68F and measured the pH using a meter calibrated with 4.01 and 7.01 buffers which were close to 77F.

Durst Vienna: 5.52 at 67.6F
Briess Brewer's 2-row: 5.45 at 65.0F
Briess Pale Ale malt: 5.47 at 65.2F
Briess Pils malt: 5.63 at 67.1F
Briess White Wheat malt: 5.63 at 68.1F
Briess Pils with 3% acid malt: 5.40 at 65.7F
Simpsons Golden Promise: 5.58 at 65.8F
Muntons Maris Otter: 5.70 at 67.6F
 
TH: Can I make a suggestion for future versions?

Since the sparge additions are added to the boil kettle, instead of "sparge water" as in "Sparge water additions", why not call it "boil kettle additions" instead? I think that would make it clearer. I've had a few people ask me now offline about how and when to add the sparge water salts. Most think it should be added to sparge water in the hot liquor tank which is incorrect.

Mash salts are added to the mash when you dough in.
Sparge water additions are added to the boil kettle.

Earlier versions of the spreadsheet actually said:

"Add mash salts directly to the mash. Add sparge salts directly to the boil (not the sparge). "
Click to expand...

That info's now gone in version 3, but it's not really needed if the labels are clear enough to begin with.

Kal
 
bsdx said:
I've been busy tonight :)
I made a bunch of pH test batches using 115g of grain infused with 0.5qt distilled water at 170F to hit about 153F in a small sauce pot and stuck it in the oven to maintain temp for 10 min. Then I filtered enough for a pH sample with a coffee filter, chilled it to around 65-68F and measured the pH using a meter calibrated with 4.01 and 7.01 buffers which were close to 77F.

Durst Vienna: 5.52 at 67.6F
Briess Brewer's 2-row: 5.45 at 65.0F
Briess Pale Ale malt: 5.47 at 65.2F
Briess Pils malt: 5.63 at 67.1F
Briess White Wheat malt: 5.63 at 68.1F
Briess Pils with 3% acid malt: 5.40 at 65.7F
Simpsons Golden Promise: 5.58 at 65.8F
Muntons Maris Otter: 5.70 at 67.6F
Click to expand...

TH - whose grains did you use for version 3.0? My LHBS carries Briess and I'm wondering if I should incorporate these numbers into your spreadsheet.
 
jmf143 said:
TH - whose grains did you use for version 3.0? My LHBS carries Briess and I'm wondering if I should incorporate these numbers into your spreadsheet.
Click to expand...

The majority came from this table (Kai's experiments):

tables.jpg


One exception is the 2-row, where general concensus among the people I communicated with was it should be more like 5.7 on average. We figured the Rahr might be acidulated (thus the note on the spreadsheet). In my own experience the 5.7 gives me accurate results, and I use Briess 2-row also. I was a bit suprised to see bsdx get 5.45 in his experiment. So without a few more tests I'm not sure what to tell you at this point.
 
I need your opinion on this water profile:

Starting Water Profile:
(Ca ppm) 68.54
(Mg ppm) 6.32
(Na ppm) 2.82
(Cl ppm) 5.00
(SO4 ppm) 37.95
(HCO3 ppm) 207.4

I added 2.8 g of CaCl2 and 3 g of MgSO4 to get these values:

(Ca ppm) 119
(Mg ppm) 25
(Na ppm) 2.82
(Cl ppm) 95
(SO4 ppm) 116
Cl/SO4 = 0,82 (balanced)

I also added 3 ml of lactic acid to get my ph to 5.52

the grain bill is 96% base pale ale malt + 4% crystal.

do you think it's ok for english bitter with IBU 36?

do you have any suggestions, what would you change here? thank you!
 
For bitter beers I tend to try and target Randy Mosher's ideal Pale Ale numbers with slightly less Sulphate:

Ca=110, Mg=18, Na=16, Cl=50, S04=275

But that's just me. An english style bitter won't have the hops in your face quite as much as a (say) an American IPA or APA so your numbers would likely make a very pleasant beer.

Kal
 
kal said:
TH: Can I make a suggestion for future versions?

Since the sparge additions are added to the boil kettle, instead of "sparge water" as in "Sparge water additions", why not call it "boil kettle additions" instead? I think that would make it clearer. I've had a few people ask me now offline about how and when to add the sparge water salts. Most think it should be added to sparge water in the hot liquor tank which is incorrect.

Mash salts are added to the mash when you dough in.
Sparge water additions are added to the boil kettle.

Earlier versions of the spreadsheet actually said:



That info's now gone in version 3, but it's not really needed if the labels are clear enough to begin with.

Kal
Click to expand...

Good suggestion Kal. There seems to be confusion no matter what, but I think your right it is probably least confusing if I label as you suggest. Thanks for the input...
 
No problems. Part of the obsessive/compulsive part of me that likes to try and make things as clear as possible whenever possible. I'm surprised I didn't notice it earlier. ;)

Kal
 
400d said:
I need your opinion on this water profile:

Starting Water Profile:
(Ca ppm) 68.54
(Mg ppm) 6.32
(Na ppm) 2.82
(Cl ppm) 5.00
(SO4 ppm) 37.95
(HCO3 ppm) 207.4

I added 2.8 g of CaCl2 and 3 g of MgSO4 to get these values:

(Ca ppm) 119
(Mg ppm) 25
(Na ppm) 2.82
(Cl ppm) 95
(SO4 ppm) 116
Cl/SO4 = 0,82 (balanced)

I also added 3 ml of lactic acid to get my ph to 5.52

the grain bill is 96% base pale ale malt + 4% crystal.

do you think it's ok for english bitter with IBU 36?

do you have any suggestions, what would you change here? thank you!
Click to expand...


I just have a question. Friend told me that I have too much bicarbonates here and that I should lower it down for this style... I wonder why isn't there a HCO3 level in the calculator in the results, after diluting with RO water?
 

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