use grapefruit juice or zest in secondary?

Two days ago I brewed an IPA which is supposed to turn out as grapefruity as possible. I went with Citra, Simcoe and Cascade as I read about those being described as very grapefruity and after a week of primary I want to dry hop half of the batch (Apollo and Comet have been recommended) and into the other half I want to put either grapefruit juice or grapefruit zest.

So first of all, do you think Juice or zest works better? Juice seems like a more direct, surefire way of doing it, but is there any risk of infection?
If I use juice, is freshly squeezed an option or has to be concentrate?
If I use zest, how much to use in one gallon?
How long to leave the zest/when to put the juice? Thought about a week of secondary with zest.....
And how to suspend the zest or just leave it floating??

Thanks for your help. Below is the recipe in case you're interested

3 Gallons (12L)
OG 1,064; Est FG 1,011
65 IBU

1,5kg PAle (plus 0,5kg extract)
0,5kg Vienna
150g Crystal 20
150g Carapils
250g Table sugar (to dry it out)

10g Citra @ 60
15g Simcoe @ 30
20g Simcoe @ 20
20g Cascade @ 10
20g Cascade @ 5
20g Cascade @ 0

Safale - 04
Ferment @ 20C
Mashed @ 66,5C

Well, all I know is that bittering with the Citra and putting the Simcoe at 30 and 20 minutes was pretty much a waste of good flavor/aroma hops. Should've saved those for late in the boil or for dry-hopping and used something else for the bittering.

I tried using both grapefruit juice and zest in a Berliner Weisse I made back in April. I used the juice of two grapefruits, about 20 oz, and it didn't give the flavor I wanted. So I zested one grapefruit and added it. Definitely improved the aroma closer to what I wanted. This was in a one gallon batch. It never got to where I wanted it so I combined that gallon with two gallons of Berliner Weisse that I had sitting on pineapple. Needless to say but this experiment has been a dud so far. Still playing with it and letting it sour more before I decide to add more pineapple and/or grapefruit, or dump the whole batch. Only time will tell.

I'd zest the grapefruit and put vodka over it for 3-4 days, then use the 'extract' as needed to get the flavor you want. I'd say you could add it to secondary, but in that example it is probably best to add at bottling time.

I plan to do a Grapefruit Sculpin clone using that method.

I recently made a Grapefruit Wheat IPA using Experimental Grapefruit hops. I added a tea made from the zest of one pink grapefruit. I boiled about 9 oz of water & let the zest steep until cool. I added about 8 oz per 6 gal.
I split the batch to use two yeasts (1056 & 1272) both were very good & are sadly gone but the 1272 was the best.
I've already vacuum sealed and frozen enough zest for three more batches plus ordered more Grapefruit hops.

aryoung1980 said:

I tried using both grapefruit juice and zest in a Berliner Weisse I made back in April. I used the juice of two grapefruits, about 20 oz, and it didn't give the flavor I wanted. So I zested one grapefruit and added it. Definitely improved the aroma closer to what I wanted. This was in a one gallon batch. It never got to where I wanted it so I combined that gallon with two gallons of Berliner Weisse that I had sitting on pineapple. Needless to say but this experiment has been a dud so far. Still playing with it and letting it sour more before I decide to add more pineapple and/or grapefruit, or dump the whole batch. Only time will tell.

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Ok, so juice doesn't seem that great of an idea.... and for one gallon you say that the zest of one grapefruit didn't do it for you, right? so maybe two, or more?
And (how) did you suspend the zest in the beer?

grrickar said:

I'd zest the grapefruit and put vodka over it for 3-4 days, then use the 'extract' as needed to get the flavor you want. I'd say you could add it to secondary, but in that example it is probably best to add at bottling time.

I plan to do a Grapefruit Sculpin clone using that method.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a good solution.... easier than adding zest maybe...
You think there are any sanitary concerns over keeping the vodka solution just in a glass for a few days?

govner1 said:

I recently made a Grapefruit Wheat IPA using Experimental Grapefruit hops. I added a tea made from the zest of one pink grapefruit. I boiled about 9 oz of water & let the zest steep until cool. I added about 8 oz per 6 gal.
I split the batch to use two yeasts (1056 & 1272) both were very good & are sadly gone but the 1272 was the best.
I've already vacuum sealed and frozen enough zest for three more batches plus ordered more Grapefruit hops.

Click to expand...

so you only used the zest of ONE grapefruit to make that 'tea' for a 6 gallon batch??? and it only steeped int the hot water until it was cool before adding it? Hard to believe that the small amount and time would give enough flavour but it did?

Worked very well. I selected some very fresh, juicy grapefruit.
Remember I had some flavor from the Grapefruit hops as well.
The "tea" added a great aroma & just the right amount of flavor w/o overdoing it.

govner1 said:

Worked very well. I selected some very fresh, juicy grapefruit.
Remember I had some flavor from the Grapefruit hops as well.
The "tea" added a great aroma & just the right amount of flavor w/o overdoing it.

Click to expand...

When did you add the tea to the beer? Wonder if there's a difference with liquid Extract whether added in secondary or at bottling...

In hindsight I would've made a tincture with the zest of two grapefruits and added to taste at bottling time.

Definitely use zest, extracted in vodka for at least two weeks. Add it, peel and all, in with the dry hops if you're dry hopping, or just add the liquid at bottling if you're not dry hopping. I also second using Wyeast 1272. I've brewed Northern Brewer's Kama Citra Session IPA, once with Wyeast 1056 with a grapefruit zest tincture and once with Wyeast 1272 without the grapefruit zest tincture. The grapefruit flavor and aroma was much better in the latter. The next time I brew this I'll use Wyeast 1272 with the grapefruit zest tincture.

grrickar said:

I'd zest the grapefruit and put vodka over it for 3-4 days, then use the 'extract' as needed to get the flavor you want. I'd say you could add it to secondary, but in that example it is probably best to add at bottling time.

I plan to do a Grapefruit Sculpin clone using that method.

Click to expand...

Agree.

I zested 8 grapefruit and put the zest in 1-1/2 pints of Everclear (the real stuff at 190 proof) for 3 days. I saved the liquid (extract) and discarded the zest (which was paper dry by that time). I put 1-2 drops in a 12oz glass of my pliny clone and it gets a very nice grapefruit flavor and aroma without being watered down like a radler. I have a Sculpin clone in the fermenter right now and plan to split the batch in 2 kegs: 1 without grapefruit extract and one with about 8 mL extract.

tomaso said:

Sounds like a good solution.... easier than adding zest maybe...
You think there are any sanitary concerns over keeping the vodka solution just in a glass for a few days?

Click to expand...

Grain alcohol is very effective at pulling flavors from most anything. Bartenders create 'infusions' to mix drinks with by putting things in the alcohol. I have used this for vanilla beans, cacao nibs, coffee and lemons.

Given the high proof, I don't think any bugs could grow in it. I would put a lid on it to keep out gnats, animal hair, dust, etc. If nothing else cover the glass with aluminum foil or plastic wrap.

tomaso said:

When did you add the tea to the beer? Wonder if there's a difference with liquid Extract whether added in secondary or at bottling...

Click to expand...

I added the tea when I kegged the beer. I cold crashed for a couple of days @ 35°F then hooked up the CO2 for about 5 days.

grrickar said:

Grain alcohol is very effective at pulling flavors from most anything. Bartenders create 'infusions' to mix drinks with by putting things in the alcohol. I have used this for vanilla beans, cacao nibs, coffee and lemons.

Given the high proof, I don't think any bugs could grow in it. I would put a lid on it to keep out gnats, animal hair, dust, etc. If nothing else cover the glass with aluminum foil or plastic wrap.

Click to expand...

I think that with half of the batch (1 Gallon) I'll soak the zest of one grapefruit in Vodka for 3-4 days and then add the soaked zest a day or two before bottling and add the vodka solution at bottling a bit at a time to get the right flavor from it.

There seem to be many different opinions as to how much zest and how long to let it soak.
Edit: Just soaked the zest of a medium sized orange in 250ml of Vodka.

I found some really interesting and helpful information on this page which gives advice on how to soak all kinds of different ingredients in alcohol.
http://www.nwedible.com/infuse-your-booze-a-complete-guide-to-diy-flavored-liquors/

For the other half of the batch I'll add squeezed grapefruit juice at bottling time, also to taste.

tomaso said:

For the other half of the batch I'll add squeezed grapefruit juice at bottling time, also to taste.

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Just be aware that adding fresh juice at bottling time will also contribute fermentable sugar, that could over carbonate the bottled beer....depending on quantity added of course.

wilserbrewer said:

Just be aware that adding fresh juice at bottling time will also contribute fermentable sugar, that could over carbonate the bottled beer....depending on quantity added of course.

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So how to account for that if I decide to use juice ?

Bottled this morning. The vodka infused zest had been soaking in the beer for 36h. The sample tasted extremely fruity and somewhat grapefruity. I then added about 200ml of the vodka solution to the 9L of bottling volume (about 2% of total) and it somewhat seemed to mellow out the fruitiness and add more grapefruit flavor. Let's see how it tastes in 2 weeks...

Overall the beer is very nice. The aroma isn't as strong as I'd wished for but there is a nice overall citrusy-fruit aroma and some grapefruit clearly comes through but it could definitely be more. With the taste it's the same, you can pick out the grapefruit but it's very subtle. Next time I'll use twice the amount, i.e. zest of two grapefruits and maybe let it soak longer in the vodka. All in all a nice exbeeriment

KeninMN said:

Definitely use zest, extracted in vodka for at least two weeks. Add it, peel and all, in with the dry hops if you're dry hopping, or just add the liquid at bottling if you're not dry hopping. I also second using Wyeast 1272. I've brewed Northern Brewer's Kama Citra Session IPA, once with Wyeast 1056 with a grapefruit zest tincture and once with Wyeast 1272 without the grapefruit zest tincture. The grapefruit flavor and aroma was much better in the latter. The next time I brew this I'll use Wyeast 1272 with the grapefruit zest tincture.

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Did you use just the peel without any of the white pith? I carefully removed the skin of two grapefruits, removed most of the white pith, chopped into small bits, and having it soaking in about a cup of vodka. The vodka changed color in a few minutes, perhaps from the oil.

ultravista said:

Did you use just the peel without any of the white pith? I carefully removed the skin of two grapefruits, removed most of the white pith, chopped into small bits, and having it soaking in about a cup of vodka. The vodka changed color in a few minutes, perhaps from the oil.

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I grated the peel just down to, but not including the pith. Then I let it soak in vodka for two weeks.

I have the planed peel (no pith) of four Ruby Red grapefruits soaking in vodka. After one week, the vodka is murky orange/yellow and heavily laden with grapefruit taste.

For me, I will not add this to the keg but per-glass to keep things interesting. My IIPA with and without grapefruit. To me, this is the way to go.

Just a quick heads up for people. Grapefruit is very harmful to people who are taking Rx cholesterol medication. You may want to keep that in mind before sharing with friends and family.

I brewed a grapefruit wheat and used .5 oz zest at 5 minutes and flameout. Worked great, subtle but present grapefruit notes in the aroma and flavor department. I'd use zest and not juice in secondary it's a nice fresh but not overpowering addition.

I soaked the whole fruit and a grater in starsan for 2 minutes then grated the zest.