Saison Help

I am going to be doing my 3rd all grain batch this weekend and I am going to be doing a Saison. I have a link to my recipe below and I was wondering if anyone could give me some direction if this is a good way to go or not.


http://hopville.com/recipe/536354/saison-recipes/to-be-spring-saison

Thanks!

Allan

I wouldnt use the coriander personally but that's just my preference. I used grains of paradise in mine to add an additional spicy note on top of the 3711 yeast. Is that really supposed to be a half oz of aromatic? Or half lb... Most saisons I've had are a little more orange than yellow. As is, it will be a good beer. It seems like most recipes I see for saisons don't use malty bearing malts like Munich or Vienna. Those seem to be more prevailant in biere de gardes.

I also used the 3711 on a 50/50 wheat/pale and used lemon and lime zest in it. Ended up being my best summer beer to date. When it comes to spices, use what you like nOt necessarily what fits the traditional style.

I got some advice on a Saison from a professional brewer and he recommended mashing very low, to make it as dry as possible, and fermenting really high (90-95F!!) to get as much funkiness as possible.

I've never added fruit or spices to mine, but many people do. There is conjecture that the fruitiness and spiciness is given from the yeast and fermentation, not from added fruit, but others claim that people back in the day likely added whatever they had and liked for flavor into their ales. I think a bit of coriander and/or citrus zest would be fine if kept mild.

Keep in mind that Saison yeast can be pretty finicky and want to stall out before it's finished, and fermentation can take a while longer then normal.

Really depends on the yeast as far as fruit levels as well as ferm temps. Like I said, I used 3711 and ramped up to 85 degrees and held it there for a week. Still didn't get much fruitiness from it. Verified by a bjcp judge. 3711 doesn't have the stalling probes that other saison yeast do but it doesn't give much fruitiness or funk. Saisons really need some Brett.

Mash low, ferment warm, forget spices and Wyeast 3711!

Have to say that I've gotten the opposite of what booster sees in 3711. I get lots of citrus fruit notes and a decent underlying funkiness.

Homercidal said:

I got some advice on a Saison from a professional brewer and he recommended <snip>, and fermenting really high (90-95F!!) to get as much funkiness as possible.
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Thats all fine n dandy using Dupont yeast, now what if your using something else? See the rules don't always work in broad strokes.

There are dozens of different saisons on the market and only a handfull need the extra heat, many will work just fine a room temps.

boostsr20 said:

Most saisons I've had are a little more orange than yellow. As is, it will be a good beer. It seems like most recipes I see for saisons don't use malty bearing malts like Munich or Vienna. Those seem to be more prevailant in biere de gardes.
.

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Nope and commerially the color range goes from light to dark. I have plenty more pics but you get my drift
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/UknowWho2u/My brew pics/bottle beer/SaisonCazeau1.jpg
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/UknowWho2u/My brew pics/bottle beer/SillySaison.jpg
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/UknowWho2u/My brew pics/bottle beer/SaisonVoisin.jpg
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/...pics/bottle beer/BrasserieDesFagnesSaison.jpg
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/UknowWho2u/beer193.jpg

althebrewer said:

I have a link to my recipe below and I was wondering if anyone could give me some direction if this is a good way to go or not.
http://hopville.com/recipe/536354/saison-recipes/to-be-spring-saison

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Sorry theres no need for oak and spices should be under 28g total if used.
Saisons I let the yeast do its spice-work, maybe a touch of Grains of Paradise ( 2 grams max)

This is for a wit recipe,
Last 5 mins of boil
5 grams cracked corriander seed
10 grams bitter orange peel
15 grams sweet orange peel



Heres a simple but damn fine saison

71.2% Pilsener
14.2% Munich Malt
4.7% Aromatic Malt
4.7% Beet Sugar
3.8% Vienna Malt
1.4% Biscuit Malt


Magnum
Strisselspalt
Czech Saaz


Yeast
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use 3711 at mid 60s and keep below 70f
Beer is done within 1wk leave in primary for another wk.
Then keg and lager for a couple wks or serve asap
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Weird. When I get home I'll send you my recipe and see if that has anything to do with it. When it was judged it was 3 months boil to bottle. I personally loved the yeast and will use it again. Just not sure if it's the best for a traditional style at this point. I just bought some 3725 bier de garde yeast and am excited to use it.

boostsr20 said:

Just not sure if it's the best for a traditional style at this point. .

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Explain traditional style, no really whats a traditional saison? I don't ask the Belgian brewers that anymore after getting funny faces time & again

WOW! Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming! I am really excited about this beer and how it seems, everyone kinda goes their own route with Saison.

I have just updated my recipe and decided to make a few changes, I am going to do a 7 gallon batch, 5 of which I will ferment with a Saison Yeast, one of those mentioned above when I can get to my homebrew shop tomorrow, the other 2 I will do with a start I made from a bottle of Saison Ale from Odonata Brewery. The 2 gallon batch I will add the oak and see how that goes, and it will all be bottle conditioned. The 5 gallons I will go to my keg. I took out the coriander, but I might that come up again.

New Recipe

http://hopville.com/recipe/536354/saison-recipes/to-be-spring-saison

Thanks for all the comments! I will do a post on how things go.

A traditional saison doesn't use spices, so I like to consider myself a traditionalist... but then a traditional saison was also a low-alcohol session beer and mine is 9% abv so, I can't get too snooty about tradition.

Houblon, your pics didn't show up and I get the access denied when I try to look at the link. I guess I just haven't drank enough Saisons but the large amount of what I have, have been an orangish hue. Not sure why. Dumb luck I guess. As far as vienna/munich, that comment was me being lazy. I was on my phone at the time and I often try to shorten things up and lose the real point. I didn't mean to come off sounding like its not a common ingredient, I was just warning to be careful on how much.

Houblon said:

Explain traditional style, no really whats a traditional saison? I don't ask the Belgian brewers that anymore after getting funny faces time & again

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I'll just concentrate on the flavor aspect per BJCP. In my own personal beer the 3711 didn't fit this very well. Not enough fruitness, next to no tartness and the spiciness I can't really comment on because I used 2g of GOP.

But like I said, I'm in no way shape or form a traditional brewer. I'm a huge advocate of brew what you like. I haven't been doing it long enough to say that 3711 will be my go to yeast for saisons but I do know that when I want a highly attenuated but good mouthfeel light beer I'll use it again. Now that I'm doing 10 gallon batches maybe I'll ferment it side by side with another yeast and see what I like better.

Flavor: Combination of fruity and spicy flavors supported by a soft malt character, a low to moderate alcohol presence and tart sourness. Extremely high attenuation gives a characteristic dry finish. The fruitiness is frequently citrusy (orange- or lemon-like). The addition of one of more spices serve to add complexity, but shouldn’t dominate in the balance. Low peppery yeast-derived phenols may be present instead of or in addition to spice additions; phenols tend to be lower than in many other Belgian beers, and complement the bitterness. Hop flavor is low to moderate, and is generally spicy or earthy in character. Hop bitterness may be moderate to high, but should not overwhelm fruity esters, spices, and malt. Malt character is light but provides a sufficient background for the other flavors. A low to moderate tart sourness may be present, but should not overwhelm other flavors. Spices, hop bitterness and flavor, and sourness commonly increase with the strength of the beer while sweetness decreases. No hot alcohol or solventy character. High carbonation, moderately sulfate water, and high attenuation give a very dry finish with a long, bitter, sometimes spicy aftertaste. The perceived bitterness is often higher than the IBU level would suggest. No diacetyl.

althebrewer said:

WOW! Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming! I am really excited about this beer and how it seems, everyone kinda goes their own route with Saison.

I have just updated my recipe and decided to make a few changes, I am going to do a 7 gallon batch, 5 of which I will ferment with a Saison Yeast, one of those mentioned above when I can get to my homebrew shop tomorrow, the other 2 I will do with a start I made from a bottle of Saison Ale from Odonata Brewery. The 2 gallon batch I will add the oak and see how that goes, and it will all be bottle conditioned. The 5 gallons I will go to my keg. I took out the coriander, but I might that come up again.

New Recipe

http://hopville.com/recipe/536354/saison-recipes/to-be-spring-saison

Thanks for all the comments! I will do a post on how things go.

Click to expand...

What oak and level of toast? Are you trying to get a heavy oak flavor or are you trying to give bugs a place to live?

Personally, I'd boil the oak before adding it especially if its a medium american oak. Otherwise it will be overpowering (at least it was for me in a big stout). French oak isn't quite as bad, but I'd still probably boil off some of the harshness.

boostsr20 said:

What oak and level of toast? Are you trying to get a heavy oak flavor or are you trying to give bugs a place to live?

Personally, I'd boil the oak before adding it especially if its a medium american oak. Otherwise it will be overpowering (at least it was for me in a big stout). French oak isn't quite as bad, but I'd still probably boil off some of the harshness.

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I am just experimenting with oak just to see how it goes. I am interested to see how a Saison goes with it all. It is kinda a attempt to do a little throwback to how these are were brewed in barrels, but the "bugs" are something I am not looking to get. I
I would like to get just a touch of oak, maybe french oak because that is the oak most closely related to the style. Really, I don't know how much to do for a 2 gallon batch. I am thinking just a few ounces? Any suggestions?



I do want to do a sour a bit later on, but after I have done a few more all grain brews.

That's the beauty of a Saison, it's traditionally a farmhouse ale, so the exact method and list of ingredients would vary from place to place. I built my Saison from what I read in Brewing Classic Styles and from advice from a pro brewer, whose Saison I greatly enjoyed. That is why I did not add fruit and spices. But it's commonly added to give even more flavor (right or wrong) and in the end, you will have a very nice beer either way, even if a BJCP judge doesn't think it fits the BJCP guidelines exactly.

And does brett really belong in a Saison? I thought that was relegated to some other Belgian styles.

Hey Everyone,

just wanted to let you know about my brew thus far. I brewed on March 5th and ended up with an OG of 1050, about 8 pts less than I was shooting for, but for being my 3rd all grain brew, I feel I am getting better. I split the batch 2.5 gals and 3.5 gals. The 2.5 I used a yeast from a bottled Saison and it is now (March 13th) at 1014 and the 3.5 gal w/white labs Belgium Saison Yeast is at 1020. I am going to let them both sit for another week and then transfer to secondary fermentation and add a little bit of oak to the 2.5 gallon batch. Thanks for all the help, I would still appreciate any ideas as I am still wondering how much oak to add, and i will post on my final outcome when they are ready to drink.

Hey Everyone,

My brews turned out great. I did not oak any of them just because I didn't think it would match up well.

Allan