So this is my first berliner weiss and I'm a bit confused as to how it works. I mashed a simple roughly 70/30 pilsner/wheat malt mix, boiled for 15 minutes just to get it down to the right dilution and ended up with 1.033 before pitching my lacto culture. It's been going (at room temperature) for about a week now, and now I'm at ~3.6ph and 1.012 gravity at the moment. I'm about to bring it to a boil to kill off the lacto and then add my yeast. But here's where my question comes in: does the bacteria make alcohol? If not, won't I be left with an incredibly light beer? I don't really understand the science of this...
First Berliner Weiss
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Most lacto strains don't produce appreciable alcohol. They are acid producers. The yeast produce alcohol.
Sounds like your lacto has done a decent job, but I recommend getting the pH under 3.5 for an acceptable acidity. Do boil the soured wort briefly to kill the lacto and then pitch the yeast. I can tell you that US-05 yeast does an admirable job at low pH and its clean tasting. The other choice is to use German Ale yeast.
Sounds like your lacto has done a decent job, but I recommend getting the pH under 3.5 for an acceptable acidity. Do boil the soured wort briefly to kill the lacto and then pitch the yeast. I can tell you that US-05 yeast does an admirable job at low pH and its clean tasting. The other choice is to use German Ale yeast.
But just to be clear, with a present SG reading of 1.012, while I know S-05 is a particularly efficient yeast, do I stand to really get the 3.8% I was shooting for? Does the lacto eat sugar, meaning I'll end up with a terribly light beer unless I went a big heavier on the grain bill up front? I did 2.7kg of pilsner and 1.1kg of wheat because it's what I had-BeerSmith estimates 4%, but if the lacto ate most of that sugar, I'd think not?
Lacto shouldn't drop the gravity like you are seeing. What is your source of lacto? White Labs and wyeast are known for selling pitches of lacto that are contaminated with yeast.
If you boil at this point you will end up with a non alcoholic beer.
If you boil at this point you will end up with a non alcoholic beer.
Sillybilly
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How does it taste? You could have picked up some wild yeast. If picked up a wild yeast that dropped your gravity to 1.012, wouldn't boiling cause the alcohol to boil off? I am sure someone with more experience may know better, but if it were me, i think if it tasted fine i would just let it ride, maybe pitch your yeast, some brett to help it along but I dont think I would boil it at this point. Just my 2c.
This is what I'm worried about. It was properly soured, but didn't taste terribly alcoholic. What sort of gravity drop should I expect from a lacto-only primary ferment? I already boiled it, so I'm screwed on that-also already pitched my yeast, but that hasn't gone anywhere in 24 hours. If I boiled it for 10 mins should I expect to have boiled off all my alcohol?
Ok, so at this point I'm probably looking at a refreshing but basically alcohol-free beer. What to do for my next one, then? I live in Europe so Lacto strains aren't easy to come by, so I washed my bacteria and have left it as a live 'mother' in the fridge. I add a little fresh juice every couple days to keep it fed and it slowly bubbles away. If I think my bacteria culture is infected with yeast, should I pitch *both* the bacteria and yeast at the same time? I was fermenting at room temperature, so that shouldn't kill the yeast. I guess my only concern is how sour it gets if I don't have any way to stop the process. Thoughts anyone?
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I'd head to the grocery store and check out the yoghurt section for anything with live cultures. Or look for probiotics with some lacto plantarum. Probiotics are a great source for lacto cultures, although it might take some trial and error to find the best choice.
As for your question above, you shouldn't see more than a 2-3 point drop in gravity from lacto. If you get anything more than that, you probably have a culture contaminated with yeast.
As for your question above, you shouldn't see more than a 2-3 point drop in gravity from lacto. If you get anything more than that, you probably have a culture contaminated with yeast.
If your wanting to turn around a sour beer fast your gonna want to sour first and then ferment. That said if the "infected" lacto you have makes a good beer and your ok working with it then go for it.
If you start over try to get a pure pitch of lacto.
If you have an Amazon account and it's available in Europe this probiotic works great:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BZ3YWXC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Below is a link to a blog post I made about a quick sour I recently did:
http://www.laundrybrewing.com/2017/02/mosaic-quick-sour.html
Check out the other posts I've linked to in the article. If your on Facebook join the Milk The Funk group. It's great.
Here's the Milk The Funk Wiki article on Berliner Weissbier also:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Berliner_Weissbier#Milk_the_Funk_Berliner_Weissbier_Recipe
There are many ways to do this but lacto shouldn't drop your gravity. There is yeast in there.
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To be clear, though, if I use one of these quick souring options using probiotic, I should still be boiling it once I get it to the right sourness level? And I shouldn't have lost more than a couple points on my OG? I have no way to hold the primary at 90-100*, so I need to keep it at room temperature or next to a radiator at best.
And for more updates, I'm stuck on 4.2ph ATM-does anyone think it'll continue to sour slowly or is it mostly done and I've just got a super-bland berliner? In my two attempts at a Berliner thus far I've got an appropriately sour but functionally non-alcoholic version and a practically unsour but appropriately alcoholic version. So, yeah, halfway there on both counts
And for more updates, I'm stuck on 4.2ph ATM-does anyone think it'll continue to sour slowly or is it mostly done and I've just got a super-bland berliner? In my two attempts at a Berliner thus far I've got an appropriately sour but functionally non-alcoholic version and a practically unsour but appropriately alcoholic version. So, yeah, halfway there on both counts
rmeskill,
If you want to stop the souring process at a certain point then yes, boil it. I don't boil my quick sours as I like to keep things simple and I do admit they get really sour but my wife likes them that way. I make them for her.
I don't even check my gravity after souring but I've never seen signs of fermentation. It's been said that you may loose a point or two of gravity but it shouldn't ferment with just lacto.
The Lacto Plantarum that I recommended is very forgiving with temperature. It will still sour at low temperatures (in the 70's F.)... and if you put the wort into the fermentor (you could also do this in the kettle if your going to boil it after souring) at 100-90 degrees F, pitch the lacto and give it 48 hours without temp control you will get a good souring. Even if you can't find that brand I recommended look for something with Lacto Plantarum.
Did you boil this last batch. If you did then it will not sour any more.
If you didn't boil it, it may sour more with time. If you have the room and the extra fermentor you could keep it and see. But while you wait...brew another batch.
If you want to stop the souring process at a certain point then yes, boil it. I don't boil my quick sours as I like to keep things simple and I do admit they get really sour but my wife likes them that way. I make them for her.
I don't even check my gravity after souring but I've never seen signs of fermentation. It's been said that you may loose a point or two of gravity but it shouldn't ferment with just lacto.
The Lacto Plantarum that I recommended is very forgiving with temperature. It will still sour at low temperatures (in the 70's F.)... and if you put the wort into the fermentor (you could also do this in the kettle if your going to boil it after souring) at 100-90 degrees F, pitch the lacto and give it 48 hours without temp control you will get a good souring. Even if you can't find that brand I recommended look for something with Lacto Plantarum.
Did you boil this last batch. If you did then it will not sour any more.
If you didn't boil it, it may sour more with time. If you have the room and the extra fermentor you could keep it and see. But while you wait...brew another batch.
So it didn't end up souring to any noticeable extent. It did get that lacto smell, suggesting something was happening, but seemingly not enough. Flavor was a bit off, so I just (unfortunately) dumped it. I'm brewing again tomorrow, but this time I've got my sous vide machine ready to keep it at a stable temp until it sours. Everyone seems to think 100F is good-is there any reason to go higher? I've got some probiotic powder-any rough idea how much of that I should be using?
It's unfortunately not in English, but from what I can glean:
B. Lactis (W51)
B. Lactis (W52)
Lactobacillus acidophilus (W22)
L. Casei (W56)
L. Paracasei (W20)
L. Plantarum (W62)
L. Salivarius (W24)
L. Lactis (W19)
I imagine the W numbers are some sort of EU classification
I think all those should be good. Here's an article about which probiotics to use and to avoid.
http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com/2015/07/choosing-right-probiotics-for-souring.html?m=1
Holding it at 90-100f should be fine.
Is there a cell count printed on the package?
Their website says: 7,5x 10^9 CFU/3g. Apparently there's 15g/tablespoon and I put in 2 tablespoons. So by my math, ~75 billion cells? So according to estimates elsewhere of ~20B cells/5g batch, I probably only need a single tablespoon...
Your math seems good.
This article is about pitching rates if you want to get technical:
http://sourbeerblog.com/lactobacillus-2-0-advanced-techniques-for-fast-souring-beer/
According to his formula I'm under pitching my lacto. For 2.5 gallons I use 3 pills that are 10 billion cells each. The wort I've soured this way was very sour in 24-48 hours.
My guess is you will be fine.
This article is about pitching rates if you want to get technical:
http://sourbeerblog.com/lactobacillus-2-0-advanced-techniques-for-fast-souring-beer/
According to his formula I'm under pitching my lacto. For 2.5 gallons I use 3 pills that are 10 billion cells each. The wort I've soured this way was very sour in 24-48 hours.
My guess is you will be fine.
Well, went on a bike ride today after leaving the wort for 16hrs at 100* with the sous vide machine on. When I left this morning it was already at 3.4, but I didn't have time to boil it-fingers crossed it's not *too* sour when I get back to it! In any case, this method seems to work and the sous vide circulation definitely speeds the process up!
https://imgur.com/gallery/N3ls4
https://imgur.com/gallery/N3ls4
Ok, ended up at ~3.3-3.4ph and an OG post-second boil of 1.035, so I'm expecting somewhere around 3.8%, which is right around what I wanted. Lost a few liters between transfer and boil, but given I'm right at where I want my OG/ph to be, I've just left it-color doesn't seem off, so why mess with a good (enough) thing?
S-05 will be fine...
Others to try....any kind of Brett is fun...Sach Trios....I've used 1318...they all seem to come out nice.
Dry hopped they are good.
I did a lime zest one a couple times...those are good.
Others to try....any kind of Brett is fun...Sach Trios....I've used 1318...they all seem to come out nice.
Dry hopped they are good.
I did a lime zest one a couple times...those are good.
Glad to see things are working out well, over in Europe you should be able to get Swansons Probiotic tablet (L. Planatarium). Pretty sure it's 1 tablet per gallon and that should get you to 3.5-3.6 in about 24 hours. This is the strain that I use, via Omega Yeast, and it works great, 18-24 hours of lacto, quick boil and then US-05 gives a nice 4% beer.
Quick update-just racked yesterday and I'm at 1.009, so ~3.5%, and it's still bubbling a bit, so hopefully will actually hit 3.8%. Sourness is still at 3.5, flavour is spot-on, no off-flavours or odd smells that I've heard some people report. Anyone have any advice on volumes of CO2 to carbonate to? Has everyone had success with the style guideline of 2.4-2.9 vols?
That's great to hear. I like to carb my quick sours to around 2.8-3.0 volumes. It really pushes the aroma.
