My beer comes out way too bitter

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jceg316

jceg316

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Hello,

The last couple of batches I made have come out really bitter, the most recent one incredibly bitter. Almost tastes like I'm drinking concrete or something. I think it might be the Columbus hops and I need to use less, but can someone tell me why it's so goddam bitter?

I was going for a "modern" style IPA like Punk IPA, 6 Point Sweet Action, Goose Island etc.

12lb Marris Otter pale malt
0.5lb Caramalt
0.5lb crystal malt

Mash with 4 gal at 150F for 90 mins

2oz Centennial 60min
2oz Columbus 45 min
1oz Centennial 30 min
1oz Columbus 15min

I tried it out of primary and it was waaaay too bitter. I've made this beer previously but couldn't remember exactly what I did, and it came out delicious. Best beer I've made yet. Trying to recreate it though I've made a monster.

Could it be dry hopped with something else to save the taste at all?
 
You don't say whether this is a 4-gal batch, or you top to 5-gal, or what (gotta be somewhere in that range if that's the full grain bill), but...ummm, that bittering schedule is off the charts. As in (theoretically) near 200 IBU.

Do you have the capacity to brew up a second batch while this one sits? My advice would be to brew a second, less-bitter (possibly NO bitter!) batch and blend them off.
 
It's a 5 gal batch. I sparge with 3 gal. Did you put the hops into a calculator to get the IBU?
 
jceg316 said:
Hello,


2oz Centennial 60min
2oz Columbus 45 min
1oz Centennial 30 min
1oz Columbus 15min
Click to expand...

Well, with 5 oz of bittering hops, and 1 oz of flavor hops, I would guess that this beer would be BITTER and without much flavor or aroma.

Next time, try this:
.75 oz columbus 60 minutes
2 oz centennial 10 minutes
1 oz columbus 5 minutes
2 oz centennial flameout
dryhop with 1-2 oz of centennial and columbus

And the beer should be really nice and hoppy, with enough bitterness to balance.

Any hops added before about 15 minutes from the end of the boil contribute primarily to bitterness, so you want a good balance of bittering, sweet malt, and late hops for flavor and aroma.
 
Hi Yooper, thanks again for your help :). I have done some reading about hops and how to use them in a brew and I thought the last half hour you add aroma hops, and first part of the boil you add bittering hops? Is it the last 15 mins which really add to the aroma?
 
jceg316 said:
Hi Yooper, thanks again for your help :). I have done some reading about hops and how to use them in a brew and I thought the last half hour you add aroma hops, and first part of the boil you add bittering hops? Is it the last 15 mins which really add to the aroma?
Click to expand...

I'd add aroma hops at less than 5 minutes. Any boiling time will drive off the aromatic oils that give you aroma. For the best aroma, dry hop.
 
My last few IPA's and APA's have used bittering hops at 60 minutes only. That's where I get all the IBU's I want. After the boil and once the wort has cooled to 150-180, I steep 2-4 ounces of hops for aroma and flavor. Finally, I dry hop with 2-5 ounces of hops. This method has given me my favorite IPA/APA's so far.
 
Wow that's alot of bittering hops OP. Of course it'll come out bitter.

Unless you're making a big double IPA, I'd suggest never using more than an ounce of bittering hops @ 60 min.

The majority of your hops should come at 15 mins and down, this is where all the flavor and aroma come from.

Also use Beersmith or something similar and it'll tell you (as long as you input everything correctly) how bitter your beer will be, so you'll know beforehand.
 
I am in agreement with all the advice so far. I especially like this approach:

julioardz said:
My last few IPA's and APA's have used bittering hops at 60 minutes only. That's where I get all the IBU's I want. After the boil and once the wort has cooled to 150-180, I steep 2-4 ounces of hops for aroma and flavor. Finally, I dry hop with 2-5 ounces of hops. This method has given me my favorite IPA/APA's so far.
Click to expand...

I do almost exactly that myself, and I got there because I haven't invested in a means of rapid chilling to "lock in" those late hop aromas. I just use a sink full of ice water to chill my kettle. Between my own experience making overly-bitter and aroma-lacking beers and reading about "no-chill" methods I'm very much in agreement that without super-rapid chilling, you can think of all your hop additions as having been "in the boil" for about 15-20 min longer.

Effectively, for me, any hops added before flameout--before some chilling, even--lose a lot of flavor and almost all aroma. So, like julioardz, I'm at the point where for ~5gal batch of an IPA, I'll add just enough bittering hop at 45-60min to get my IBU's, then perhaps 2oz flavor/aroma hops once chilled to ~140F (which I think of as a 10min add'n), then perhaps 2oz aroma dry-hop. Maybe half these levels for a typical hoppy PA. For a DIPA I might also add an ounce just at flameout (which I think of as a 15min add'n), maybe up the dry hop, and add up to 2oz in a ~120F hop tea (which I think of as a 5min add'n) at bottling.
 
agrazela said:
I am in agreement with all the advice so far. I especially like this approach:



I do almost exactly that myself, and I got there because I haven't invested in a means of rapid chilling to "lock in" those late hop aromas. I just use a sink full of ice water to chill my kettle. Between my own experience making overly-bitter and aroma-lacking beers and reading about "no-chill" methods I'm very much in agreement that without super-rapid chilling, you can think of all your hop additions as having been "in the boil" for about 15-20 min longer.

Effectively, for me, any hops added before flameout--before some chilling, even--lose a lot of flavor and almost all aroma. So, like julioardz, I'm at the point where for ~5gal batch of an IPA, I'll add just enough bittering hop at 45-60min to get my IBU's, then perhaps 2oz flavor/aroma hops once chilled to ~140F (which I think of as a 10min add'n), then perhaps 2oz aroma dry-hop. Maybe half these levels for a typical hoppy PA. For a DIPA I might also add an ounce just at flameout (which I think of as a 15min add'n), maybe up the dry hop, and add up to 2oz in a ~120F hop tea (which I think of as a 5min add'n) at bottling.
Click to expand...

This makes a lot of sense. I don't have a way to cool my wort quickly (terrible I know) so I probably am losing a lot more aroma as well. It's my birthday in september and I'm gonna ask for a copper wort chiller. In the meantime I'm gonna try placing the bucket of wort in a larger backet of ice water and placing a few sterilised ice packs in the wort. Then stir both buckets in opposite directions. Anyway I digress, my point being I didn't realise the still-heated wort would continue "cooking" the hops but it makes sense.

Thanks everyone for your answers.
 
In terms of what everyone said, I want to make a hoppy lager. I need to brew a lot of beer for a lot of people and as most this audience are not craft beer/real ale types and are happy with a pint of Stella or something, I'd like to brew them a lager with some hop character. Basically a mix between lager and an IPA. How does this recipe sound:

12lb Pilsner malt
1lb vienna malt

0.75 oz Chinook 60mins
0.5 oz Chinook 30mins
1 oz Cascade 5mins
0.5 oz columbus flame out.

I previously said I can't cool quickly but I found a load of ice packs and a large bucket, let's assume I can cool pretty quickly. Too bitter or pleasantly hoppy?
 
jceg316 said:
In terms of what everyone said, I want to make a hoppy lager. I need to brew a lot of beer for a lot of people and as most this audience are not craft beer/real ale types and are happy with a pint of Stella or something, I'd like to brew them a lager with some hop character. Basically a mix between lager and an IPA. How does this recipe sound:

12lb Pilsner malt
1lb vienna malt

0.75 oz Chinook 60mins
0.5 oz Chinook 30mins
1 oz Cascade 5mins
0.5 oz columbus flame out.

I previously said I can't cool quickly but I found a load of ice packs and a large bucket, let's assume I can cool pretty quickly. Too bitter or pleasantly hoppy?
Click to expand...

I would love it- but it will be bitter and hoppy. It won't be a beer for non-craft hoppy beer drinkers.

Chinook is perceived to be quite harsh to many, but I love it. I would not use it in a light-ish beer, especially for people who don't love chinook hops. Columbus, too- it's 'heavy' and 'dank' and can be quite overpowering.

If you want to do a hybrid type ale for people who like Stella, I'd definitely recommend using noble hops (saaz, hallertauer, etc) and much less of them and cut the bittering. Use some brewing software so that your IBU/SG ratio is much more balanced.
 
I want to make a "classic" style lager and give it a bit of a hoppy taste. I was thinking of either using noble hops (I have a few packs from making some Belgian style ales) and dry hopping with some "new world" hops. I want them to drink something with a bit of a hoppy taste, but is still accessible to them.

I think I'll look up some lager hop additions and dry hop with something fruity. I didn't want to use the same hops for my Belgian beers as they will all end up tasting the same so will look at some others.
 
jceg316 said:
Hello,

The last couple of batches I made have come out really bitter, the most recent one incredibly bitter. Almost tastes like I'm drinking concrete or something. I think it might be the Columbus hops and I need to use less, but can someone tell me why it's so goddam bitter?

I was going for a "modern" style IPA like Punk IPA, 6 Point Sweet Action, Goose Island etc.

12lb Marris Otter pale malt
0.5lb Caramalt
0.5lb crystal malt

Mash with 4 gal at 150F for 90 mins

2oz Centennial 60min
2oz Columbus 45 min
1oz Centennial 30 min
1oz Columbus 15min

I tried it out of primary and it was waaaay too bitter. I've made this beer previously but couldn't remember exactly what I did, and it came out delicious. Best beer I've made yet. Trying to recreate it though I've made a monster.

Could it be dry hopped with something else to save the taste at all?
Click to expand...
WOW! I'm still learning the hops thing too, I never used that much, that would make it pretty bitter. Generally I use about 2oz per 5gal for all of my hops, give or take depending on the brew.

Easy calculation:
Oz of hops x AAU=?
? X min boiled= y
Y divided by 7.25=IBU

The book I pulled that from you might find pretty helpful, it's called The Brewmasters Bible by Stephen Snyder. It explains the technical stuff and flavors of beers, hops, yeast, grains, ect.
 
Agreed with Yooper, your non-craft buddies might find Chinook and CTZ to be a bit too aggressive.

jceg316 said:
In terms of what everyone said, I want to make a hoppy lager. I need to brew a lot of beer for a lot of people and as most this audience are not craft beer/real ale types and are happy with a pint of Stella or something, I'd like to brew them a lager with some hop character. Basically a mix between lager and an IPA. How does this recipe sound:

12lb Pilsner malt
1lb vienna malt

0.75 oz Chinook 60mins
0.5 oz Chinook 30mins
1 oz Cascade 5mins
0.5 oz columbus flame out.

I previously said I can't cool quickly but I found a load of ice packs and a large bucket, let's assume I can cool pretty quickly. Too bitter or pleasantly hoppy?
Click to expand...

Ice packs and a bucket is still not "fast chill" in my experience. I assume this is a 5gal batch? What yeast? Is this actually going to be a lager, or a "lager-style" ale?

I like your grain bill, should be reminiscent of a standard lager, though likely with more ABV. Don't forget to boil 90 min for DMS reduction.

As for what you want to do on hoppy for said crowd, I'd say just use an ounce of Magnum (or something equally unoffensive) for bittering at 60+ min, throw in an ounce of Centennial during the chill (I like to add at 140°F, then cap the kettle and let sit ~30 min in the ice bath), then dry hop with 1 or 2oz of Centennial and/or Cascade.

Should get you an IBU somewhere around 40-45 (just a bit more bitter than they'd be used to), and some pleasantly American hoppy flavor and aroma.
 
When it comes to bittering hops, you really need to plug in the AA into a calculator, and determine the weight of hops you need to use use based off that. Simply saying "1 ounce of bittering hops at 60 min" leaves a wide range of bitterness. Using a IBU calculator is pretty easy...
 
I like a nice bitter IPA and have made some pretty massive DIPA's, including one with a full pound of hops, and have never put even a full oz in at 60 min. To do 2oz at 60 and another 2oz at 45min would make it damn near undrinkable even for me.

When I'm creating a new recipe I like to use brewtoad.com. It will calculate the IBU's, and possibly more importantly the IBU/OG ratio, along with all the other critical info so you can tweak your recipe as you see fit. The other nice thing is that it will save your recipes so when you want to brew another identical batch, or tweak one you've made before, you just pull it up.

As for quickly chilling I now have a wort chiller but I made a lot of batches where I just chilled by adding ice. Sometimes I would just add ice from my ice maker but when I wanted to be more precise I would just freeze plastic gallon jugs of water and cut the plastic off to add exactly 1 gallon of ice and plan on a slightly smaller boil so I could add 1-2 gallons of ice to chill it fast. I never had a problem with contamination.
 
agrazela said:
Agreed with Yooper, your non-craft buddies might find Chinook and CTZ to be a bit too aggressive.



Ice packs and a bucket is still not "fast chill" in my experience. I assume this is a 5gal batch? What yeast? Is this actually going to be a lager, or a "lager-style" ale?

I like your grain bill, should be reminiscent of a standard lager, though likely with more ABV. Don't forget to boil 90 min for DMS reduction.

As for what you want to do on hoppy for said crowd, I'd say just use an ounce of Magnum (or something equally unoffensive) for bittering at 60+ min, throw in an ounce of Centennial during the chill (I like to add at 140°F, then cap the kettle and let sit ~30 min in the ice bath), then dry hop with 1 or 2oz of Centennial and/or Cascade.

Should get you an IBU somewhere around 40-45 (just a bit more bitter than they'd be used to), and some pleasantly American hoppy flavor and aroma.
Click to expand...


Yes this is gonna be a 5 gal batch with lager yeast, not sure on the specific kind yet but probably saflager.

Those hop additions sound sensible. I looked up magnum and I think that's what I'm going for.

In terms of cooling my wort, we are trying to set up an outdoor tap however the water pressure is too low so we can't use a wort chiller until that's fixed. I saw this video [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1Un5N-mCfU[/ame] but instead of throwing ice into the wort I'll use sanitised ice packs (so I don't water the beer down).
 
jceg316 said:
In terms of cooling my wort, we are trying to set up an outdoor tap however the water pressure is too low so we can't use a wort chiller until that's fixed.
Click to expand...

There's no way your water pressure is too low to use a wort chiller. If it flows at all it will do the job. On my last few batches I've just hooked them up to my rain barrel, which is raised about 2ft off the ground. I've actually found it has the perfect flow rate.
 
Thank you all for your advice. I want to do some 1 gallon test batches, if I divide all these quantities by 5 will I get the same/similar results? Or does minimising the batch like this create some results I'm not aware of? Because nothing in life is simple...
 
Yooper said:
Well, with 5 oz of bittering hops, and 1 oz of flavor hops, I would guess that this beer would be BITTER and without much flavor or aroma.

Next time, try this:
.75 oz columbus 60 minutes
2 oz centennial 10 minutes
1 oz columbus 5 minutes
2 oz centennial flameout
dryhop with 1-2 oz of centennial and columbus

And the beer should be really nice and hoppy, with enough bitterness to balance.

Any hops added before about 15 minutes from the end of the boil contribute primarily to bitterness, so you want a good balance of bittering, sweet malt, and late hops for flavor and aroma.
Click to expand...

I made a 1 gal batch following this hop schedule (but only used 1/5 the amounts) and it still came out tasting the same. It smelt a lot nicer, it smelt fantastic! but still had a concrete taste. Could the hops be stale? Am I using the wrong hops for bittering?
 
jceg316 said:
I made a 1 gal batch following this hop schedule (but only used 1/5 the amounts) and it still came out tasting the same. It smelt a lot nicer, it smelt fantastic! but still had a concrete taste. Could the hops be stale? Am I using the wrong hops for bittering?
Click to expand...

Tell us about the 'concrete' taste. What do you mean by that? If it smelled great, it should have tasted great as well.

What is your water like? Tap water? Bottled water?
 
Yooper said:
Tell us about the 'concrete' taste. What do you mean by that? If it smelled great, it should have tasted great as well.

What is your water like? Tap water? Bottled water?
Click to expand...

Water is tap water but I don't think this is the issue as I use this water for all brews and others have come out fine. The grains are fine as well because I use those grains in other brews which are fine. The only thing these brews which cone out too bitter have in common is the yeast: Fermentis american ale 05. Plus they all have Columbus and centennial.

It could be the yeast is not right or my hops are stale. I managed to cool the beer to pitching temp in 20-30 minutes.

The taste is extreme bitterness mixed with extreme dryness. Imagine a bitter IPA, it's a really extreme bitterness of that. Usually the first taste is bang on but then it gives way to this bitterness.
 
My advice would be to put it away somewhere, forget about it for a few months and try it again then. Just like hop aroma bitterness mellows with age in my experience, so if it's not enjoyable now then drink something else until Jan/Feb and then try it again.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
I've been doing some research trying to find out what could be causing the issue, and came across this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/safale-us05-phenolic-problems-329870/ where someone else is having issues with US-05. They have massive temp swings, and as I leave the fermenter in the garage I would imagine it has large temp swings.

Mcspanner - thanks for the advice, I am trying that with all the batches that have gone bad so far however I am looking for a way to make IPAs without a 6 month production timeline :S.
 
jceg316 said:
I've been doing some research trying to find out what could be causing the issue, and came across this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/safale-us05-phenolic-problems-329870/ where someone else is having issues with US-05. They have massive temp swings, and as I leave the fermenter in the garage I would imagine it has large temp swings.

Mcspanner - thanks for the advice, I am trying that with all the batches that have gone bad so far however I am looking for a way to make IPAs without a 6 month production timeline :S.
Click to expand...

Tell us more about your temp swings.

Would you say that concrete also tastes like band aids or plastic smells?
 
Gameface said:
Tell us more about your temp swings.

Would you say that concrete also tastes like band aids or plastic smells?
Click to expand...

Not really, it smells really nice - really good aroma! It just seems to be the taste.

I raised this subject recently on another forum and someone suggested it's because I'm using centennial and columbus together which can create really harsh bitterness: http://www.brewuk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=49664
 
jceg316 said:
Not really, it smells really nice - really good aroma! It just seems to be the taste.

I raised this subject recently on another forum and someone suggested it's because I'm using centennial and columbus together which can create really harsh bitterness: http://www.brewuk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=49664
Click to expand...

I ask because as far as the temp swings go a hot fermentation can lead to many off flavors. Too high and it can lead to fusel alcohols, which are very harsh.

The other question is to try to understand what you mean by concrete. I don't think of concrete as being bitter. Honestly I don't think of concrete as a flavor. The flavors I asked about would indicate chlorine or chloramines in your water that produce a very unpleasant flavor and aroma that many describe as plastic or band aid like.
 
Gameface said:
I ask because as far as the temp swings go a hot fermentation can lead to many off flavors. Too high and it can lead to fusel alcohols, which are very harsh.

The other question is to try to understand what you mean by concrete. I don't think of concrete as being bitter. Honestly I don't think of concrete as a flavor. The flavors I asked about would indicate chlorine or chloramines in your water that produce a very unpleasant flavor and aroma that many describe as plastic or band aid like.
Click to expand...

I realise I only answered half your question. It sits in my garage which has no heating, so it remains pretty cool. I think the packet says ideal temperatures for that yeast are 15-22*C. My garage probably sits in that range during the day but during the night I image drops to single digits.
 
I think it might be worth getting your water tested so that you know if you need to adjust your water.

I recently had my water tested this summer because I was getting a lot of harsh bitter qualities from my pale ales and California common beers.

Once I knew I had high bicarbonates, I was able to adjust my mashing water and get smoother beers.

Also, if you are brewing exclusively extract, gurus like John Palmer suggest using RO or distilled water, since the extract manufacturers have already adjusted the water to make the extracts.

Just something to think about.
 
OswaldvW said:
I think it might be worth getting your water tested so that you know if you need to adjust your water.

I recently had my water tested this summer because I was getting a lot of harsh bitter qualities from my pale ales and California common beers.

Once I knew I had high bicarbonates, I was able to adjust my mashing water and get smoother beers.

Also, if you are brewing exclusively extract, gurus like John Palmer suggest using RO or distilled water, since the extract manufacturers have already adjusted the water to make the extracts.

Just something to think about.
Click to expand...

Was it just your pales and Californians this happened to? My lagers and abbey beers have come out really well and don't suffer from this (so far have only made these three types).

I got in contact with a professional brewer who suggests it may be due to oxidising the wort at the wrong time. This would make sense as we did oxidise the wort when it was still hot.
 
No, but the hoppier the beer, the harsher the bitterness.

As I said, once I was able to get a better mash pH, the better tasting my beers.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
What sort of water are you using? Have you gotten it tested? The increased perception of hop bitterness and the 'concrete' taste makes it seem like sulfates are to blame. Try using distilled water or a filter system.
 
That's a great looking report. My city would probably just send you a link to the Wikipedia page on water...

Your water has sulfate at 50 mg/L (50 ppm) and chloride at 56 mg/L on average (56 ppm). The balance of these two is apparently important but yours is at 1:1 which shouldn't cause trouble.
 
Arrheinous said:
That's a great looking report. My city would probably just send you a link to the Wikipedia page on water...

Your water has sulfate at 50 mg/L (50 ppm) and chloride at 56 mg/L on average (56 ppm). The balance of these two is apparently important but yours is at 1:1 which shouldn't cause trouble.
Click to expand...

Water profile is still something I'm trying to get my head around, but there are a few aspects of water which need to be considered. In another forum someone mentioned that there is too much calcium carbonate and bicarbonate which would extract tannins from the grains.

On top of this, the mix of Centennial and Columbus creates quite a harsh bitterness, and it might be better to replace Centennial with Galaxy or Citra which produces a smoother hoppiness.
 
Citra or Mosaic would be good. Galaxy and the NZ hops might be a bit too different to figure out what's going wrong.

Centennial + Cascade work very well together. IIRC Centennial doesn't play well with high AA hops.
 

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