Starter for a Pilsner (lager) Question

g-star said:

What I'm saying is that under-pitching, then judging fermentation a success by the rate of bubbling is a naive approach. But you don't seemed to be swayed by well-established facts, so I'm done trying to educate you.

Best of luck with your beers.

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Who's judging success of fermentation solely by the rate of bubbling? As I said, airlocks help you understand factors that even Jamil describes as important in his book:
(1) Length of the lag phase and activity during it,
(2) How vigorous is fermentation in the growth stage,
(3) Total duration of fermentation.

Again, this info is combined with other info like healthy kreuzen, smell, etc.

So please educate us: what else should we be looking at? Clearly you have no answer except to misquote, naysay, and point to mrmalty. Apparently you're saying that we can have two different fermentations that look and seem completely identical, yet the one that uses half as much yeast will be garbage. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

Professional pitching rates are probably the best guidelines--what rates do breweries target?

What rates to the homebrewers who win the most awards for their beers use? Not as reliable as professional rates but indicative of success.

I usually make a 4L starter for a 5 gallon batch. There are two schools of thought on lager starter fermentation temps. One is to ferment at room temp. This will allow for faster growth, so 2 days prior to brew day is feasible. The other is to ferment at cold (the same temp as the temp you will be doing your 5 gallon batch). This will require a much longer fermentation since they work slower in the cold. I personally like the latter but it's up to you.

gotajiboo said:

I usually make a 4L starter for a 5 gallon batch. There are two schools of thought on lager starter fermentation temps. One is to ferment at room temp. This will allow for faster growth, so 2 days prior to brew day is feasible. The other is to ferment at cold (the same temp as the temp you will be doing your 5 gallon batch). This will require a much longer fermentation since they work slower in the cold. I personally like the latter but it's up to you.

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I used to ferment lager starters at the same temperature as the main batch. Then I learned the folks at Wyeast don't propogate yeast that way--so why should I?

Yep the point of a starter is to increase your yeast cell count. Off-flavors in your starter shouldn't be a concern unless you plan on drinking it.

I decided to gradually ease into a d-rest starting last night by turning my thermostat up to 55F... Within a couple hours my airlock was bubbling with a bit more vigor. I plan on letting it warm to about 60F today, where it will stay until tomorrow evening when I'll crash it to 34F and let it lager in primary while I'm on the east coast. As soon as I'm back (8/6), I'll rack to keg, put has on it, and let it continue to lager for another 2-3 weeks. Eh??

Brulosopher said:

I decided to gradually ease into a d-rest starting last night by turning my thermostat up to 55F... Within a couple hours my airlock was bubbling with a bit more vigor. I plan on letting it warm to about 60F today, where it will stay until tomorrow evening when I'll crash it to 34F and let it lager in primary while I'm on the east coast. As soon as I'm back (8/6), I'll rack to keg, put has on it, and let it continue to lager for another 2-3 weeks. Eh??

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Sounds good, except check the SG and taste for diacetyl before crashing.

Actually, I always rack right after the diacetyl rest, because if the beer is done it's ready for lagering. But if you don't have time to rack it to the keg tomorrow night, then I guess the way you're planning will work.

Yooper said:

Sounds good, except check the SG and taste for diacetyl before crashing.

Actually, I always rack right after the diacetyl rest, because if the beer is done it's ready for lagering. But if you don't have time to rack it to the keg tomorrow night, then I guess the way you're planning will work.

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Thanks Yooper. When it comes to lager brewing, everyone seems to have their own method, which makes it confusing for a dude who's never brewed one before. I could probably squeeze in the time to keg the beer, but my thought was to let it sit on the yeast cake another week just for whatever minimal amount of "clean up" might occur... even though it'll be near freezing. I've heard from a few trusted sources that their lagers are usually bright and ready to drink within 4-5 weeks (when kegging)... what are your thoughts on this?

+1 on Yooper's method of racking after d-rest. Not sure why bother slowly increasing temp to 65F for the d-rest. And I follow the advice from Miller's book to reduce the temp by about 3F per day after the d-rest until you get to lagering temp.

In the big picture, none of this stuff is critical so it's no biggie.

Well, I checked it just before heading out for work this morning and it's fermenting more vigorously than it has since pitching yeast last Saturday- it's at 53F. Should I start raising the temperature tonight for a d-rest, or would it be best to let it ferment out while I'm gone and raise the temp when I get home next Monday? Meh...

Would be easier to give advice if you knew what the gravity was.

I am in general agreement with Yooper's advice to rack as soon as d-rest is over; having said that my own d-rests have occasionally lasted quite awhile before I rack & crash.

osagedr said:

Would be easier to give advice if you knew what the gravity was.

I am in general agreement with Yooper's advice to rack as soon as d-rest is over; having said that my own d-rests have occasionally lasted quite awhile before I rack & crash.

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Yeah, I figured this would be suggested. Perhaps I'll take a reading tonight. At what point is it a good idea to raise temp? I've heard 1.025 or less.

Brulosopher said:

Yeah, I figured this would be suggested. Perhaps I'll take a reading tonight. At what point is it a good idea to raise temp? I've heard 1.025 or less.

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You hear different suggestions, but between five and ten gravity points above expected FG is a decent rule of thumb. If your expected FG is in the low teens, 1.020 is perfect, but I'd rather do one at 1.030 than once FG has been reached. It protects you from diacetyl and helps ensure a strong finish to fermentation.

osagedr said:

You hear different suggestions, but between five and ten gravity points above expected FG is a decent rule of thumb. If your expected FG is in the low teens, 1.020 is perfect, but I'd rather do one at 1.030 than once FG has been reached. It protects you from diacetyl and helps ensure a strong finish to fermentation.

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Thanks!!

Just pulled a sample to test SG; we're at about 1.020 or so... I just raised the temp to 60F (it was at about 53F) and plan to leave it there until about 4:30am Sunday morning (when we leave for the airport), at which point I'll set the Ranco to 33F. The kreusen was HUGE and the wort was clearly still fermenting strongly. I've heard WLP800 can take a bit to really get going, even with a starter (I know, I know). Either way, I'm still not getting any sulfur at all, and the sample, while pretty sweet, was delicious! I'm pretty excited to get back next week and start lagering this beauty. Thanks everyone for your help!

Can't remember how long you said you were away for, but I'd just leave it at 60 until you get back. Then rack it and crash it.

osagedr said:

Can't remember how long you said you were away for, but I'd just leave it at 60 until you get back. Then rack it and crash it.

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9 days. Seriously?

Brulosopher said:

9 days. Seriously?

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Yup, it may be better to just leave it at 60F because (a) you may not have reached FG by tomorrow and (b) by cold crashing it, you're telling the yeast to stop working. OTOH, leaving at 60f for 9 days won't hurt anything.

SpeedYellow said:

Yup, it may be better to just leave it at 60F because (a) you may not have reached FG by tomorrow and (b) by cold crashing it, you're telling the yeast to stop working. OTOH, leaving at 60f for 9 days won't hurt anything.

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Right on, that's the plan! Thanks for being so helpful, pal.

Yep 9 days is no problem.

Get home tomorrow... excited!

Alright... so I kegged this puppy on Wednesday night, purged the keg of O2 then pumped it with 20 psi of CO2, disconnected the CO2 line and placed the keg in my 34F freezer for a week or so of lagering. I've got company coming for my son's birthday next weekend and I'm hoping it is decently lagered and carbonated by then. In all these years, this is not only my first lager, but my first single malt beer as well. I'm really excited to taste the finished product.

Throughout this process, I've realized making ales is more my speed... mainly because I'm incredibly impatient and I share my beer with a lot of folks, so it goes too quickly. With ales, my pipeline is easier to build up. I have a WLP Munich Helles vial just waiting to be used... we'll see if I ever get to it.

Thanks for all the help, folks. I'll be sure to let you know how it turns out!

Sorry to say, but a week of lagering is simply nowhere near enough. So resist the temptation to serve it...it will get so much better with a few more weeks lagering. These lagers get sort-of drinkable after 4 weeks, but aren't at their best until around 8 weeks or so. Rule of thumb is a day for every point of SG.

SpeedYellow said:

Sorry to say, but a week of lagering is simply nowhere near enough. So resist the temptation to serve it...it will get so much better with a few more weeks lagering. These lagers get sort-of drinkable after 4 weeks, but aren't at their best until around 8 weeks or so. Rule of thumb is a day for every point of SG.

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I always go by 1 week for every 8-10 points of OG. So, for a lager with an OG of 1.050, I'd go 5 weeks at a minimum. For a higher OG beer, I'd go longer of course. I usually lager for 8-12 weeks, depending on what I'm making.

I'm sure that a week of lagering will clear the beer quite a bit so it may be pretty clear. But it won't have that typical "crisp" lager finish. During lagering, polyphenols drop out and that is what gives that typical distinctive crisp lager flavor.

Thanks for the tips! My plan now is to let everyone drink what's on tap now (2 will blow soon, the other is full and bright) and let it lager longer... then refrain from lager brewing until I have a larger kegerator.

On that note... anyone in Cali in the market for a rad 3 tap kegerator? I'm selling mine and building a 6 tap keezer

Brulosopher said:

Alright... so I kegged this puppy on Wednesday night, purged the keg of O2 then pumped it with 20 psi of CO2, disconnected the CO2 line and placed the keg in my 34F freezer for a week or so of lagering.

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Any reason for not carbing the lager while you're lagering it, besides potential space issues? You can do both and save on some time.

Darwin18 said:

Any reason for not carbing the lager while you're lagering it, besides potential space issues? You can do both and save on some time.

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That's what I'm doing!

Brulosopher said:

That's what I'm doing!

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Not if you disconnected the gas line, you're not. One shot of co2 isn't going to carbonate the entire keg.

SpeedYellow said:

Not if you disconnected the gas line, you're not. One shot of co2 isn't going to carbonate the entire keg.

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Oh, I know this. All of my taps are taken, so I "over-charged" the keg just until one of my faucets is free (soon). I've done this many times with great success. Since it won't be ready for a few more weeks, I figure I have little to worry about regarding carbonation, since it only takes a week. Cheers!

My 2-6 row with Live ants in the Flaked Corn ....needs another month.. very light in color. tried it tonight after 9 days on gas... Big time Meh.. maybe the Corny/Stella taste will mellow with a tic more time...Brulosopher did I mention the Marzanless Octoberfest at my place??

Soon

jeffd10 said:

My 2-6 row with Live ants in the Flaked Corn ....needs another month.. very light in color. tried it tonight after 9 days on gas... Big time Meh.. maybe the Corny/Stella taste will mellow with a tic more time...Brulosopher did I mention the Marzanless Octoberfest at my place??

Soon

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Very soon, my friend

I'm thinking my Pils still needs another month or so as well. We can have a lager party... and brew some ale.

Brulosopher said:

I figure I have little to worry about regarding carbonation, since it only takes a week. Cheers!

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I now regularly carb stuff up in 36 hours.

UPDATE: I finally made some room in my kegerator to squeeze my keg of Pils in there. It's been sitting happily at around 38F and on 12 psi of CO2 for 2 days now. I pulled a few ounces off yesterday just to check the progress. It sure is pale... almost white. This is my first time ever doing a single malt beer, and it was all Pilsner malt, so I guess that's what I expected. And goodness, it really does take much longer for lager beers to condition (duh)- with my ales, they'll usually fall bright within 2 weeks of kegging and cold conditioning. I can tell my Pils is going to need another 2-3 weeks to really clear and crisp up. Either way, the sample is starting to taste more and more like I was hoping, which is exciting!

Brulosopher said:

UPDATE: I finally made some room in my kegerator to squeeze my keg of Pils in there. It's been sitting happily at around 38F and on 12 psi of CO2 for 2 days now. I pulled a few ounces off yesterday just to check the progress. It sure is pale... almost white. This is my first time ever doing a single malt beer, and it was all Pilsner malt, so I guess that's what I expected. And goodness, it really does take much longer for lager beers to condition (duh)- with my ales, they'll usually fall bright within 2 weeks of kegging and cold conditioning. I can tell my Pils is going to need another 2-3 weeks to really clear and crisp up. Either way, the sample is starting to taste more and more like I was hoping, which is exciting!

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How long it takes stuff to clear is affected by your brewing process as well as the yeast you use. If you can get it to clear (I mean brilliantly clear) in 2-3 weeks you will be doing really well--I've made Pilsners with less flocculant yeast that still have chill haze after months. I usually just end up using gelatin or biofine.

osagedr said:

How long it takes stuff to clear is affected by your brewing process as well as the yeast you use. If you can get it to clear (I mean brilliantly clear) in 2-3 weeks you will be doing really well--I've made Pilsners with less flocculant yeast that still have chill haze after months. I usually just end up using gelatin or biofine.

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Mine clear up faster- but I always have super clear wort right after brewing. With pilsner malt, I get crazy hot break and crazy cold break, and a clear wort right from the beginning. But I do notice that many lager strains take a lot longer to clear the beer than ale yeast strains do!

I never use finings (want my beer "vegetarian friendly") and it does clear up a lot during lagering, to where it looks like it's been filtered by the time I serve it.

Yooper said:

Mine clear up faster- but I always have super clear wort right after brewing. With pilsner malt, I get crazy hot break and crazy cold break, and a clear wort right from the beginning. But I do notice that many lager strains take a lot longer to clear the beer than ale yeast strains do!

I never use finings (want my beer "vegetarian friendly") and it does clear up a lot during lagering, to where it looks like it's been filtered by the time I serve it.

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I usually end up with really clear wort out of the kettle as well. I'm going to try a few more flocculant yeasts on my lighter lagers this fall and see what happens. I'd prefer not to use finings but will do it if it gets my beer really clear. Definitely lean toward Biofine for beers I really care about since it's a small addition.

So ... how did this Pilsner Lager turn out in the end?

kombat said:

So ... how did this Pilsner Lager turn out in the end?

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Amazingly delicious. Took a tad long, so I'm working on building up my pipeline before brewing another one.

Looks delicious! Is that haze, or carbonation, or condensation on the glass? Did you use any fining agents on this beer (Irish moss, gelatine)? What are you planning to brew to fill your pipeline?

kombat said:

Looks delicious! Is that haze, or carbonation, or condensation on the glass? Did you use any fining agents on this beer (Irish moss, gelatine)? What are you planning to brew to fill your pipeline?

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That's condensation, the beer WAS crystal clear- cold beer, 105F day. It's gone now. Check out my signature to see what's brewing... I'm in the middle of chilling starter wort for a Dry Stout and Oirish Mild I'm making this weekend using WLP004.