double pitching a barleywine

I plan on brewing a barleywine this week. I had some ideas running through my head but would like to see what you guys had to say about them. Since the barleywine is going to be such a high OG beer (est 1.098-1.103) i was wondering if i pitched the yeast (white labs) like you normally would let it start the fermentation then about 5-6days into fermentation re-pitch another vial of white labs and add some belgium liquid candi to the mixture.

I thinking as the first vial of white labs starts to fade in production add the 2nd vival a re-boost fermentation to get that final gravity as low as it can.

Thanks, Look foward to your input

Why not just make a starter to have enough yeast from the beginning? You can always add more sugars as the brew ferments, if you wish...

Is this going to be an extract, partial mash, or all grain brew? If partial mash, or all grain, you can mash at a temperature that will help it finish with a lower FG... If you use a yeast that will ferment to a high enough ABV level, then all you should probably do is make a decent starter for it...

If you've already got hundreds of billions of yeast cells, adding a few hundred billion more of the same yeast probably won't do much good for you when they are already almost done eating all of the sugar. IMO, there are better ways to get a drier beer. Lighter malts, adjuncts, lower mash temps, higher-attenuation yeast, etc.

My opinion is you would want a high cell count right off the bat, and would want to pitch both vials right away. Just like a yeast starter, you pitch that all at once as well. If you only pitch one vial in such a huge OG, the cells will get stressed and could die off, etc.

I am by no means an expert, I have never brewed a barley wine, so take my response with a grain of salt!

im relativly new to brewing so i wanted to stay away from making a starter...you know keep the steps simple. It will be an extract kit (http://www.midwestsupplies.com/bigfoot-s-barleywine.html) and i plan on adding 3/4pd-1pd of brown sugar to the wort during the last 15min of the boil

Making a starter is really, really easy...

1. Have a large enough jar for the starter (I would go with a 2-4 quart jar).
2. Boil 1/4 cup DME in 3 cups water for 5-10 minutes.
3. Cool boiled solution to safe pitching temps (70-75F usually). Add another cup of water to help cool the starter solution.
4. Pour solution into sanitized jar.
5. Shake the sheit out of the starter to aerate it.
6. Pitch yeast and either put lid on jar (not too tight, to let gas out) or cover in sanitized aluminum foil.

Whenever you walk past the starter, hold the top, and bottle (on the counter) and swirl it around for 10-15 seconds. If you put a lid on, crack it open to let gas out... If you used foil, watch it puff up...

Make this 1-2 days before brew day and you'll have a healthy sized yeast colony to pitch into the brew...

Instead of adding brown sugar, use either Dememera sugar (can usually be found in the baking section of the grocery store), or more DME/LME.... I would wait to add that until you find you actually NEED it to get close enough to the target OG... You can always add it post boil, after a week or two in primary.

my starter, could i use the vial of white labs that i got? Since i have 2 vials of white labs should i use them both in the starter?

Gordzilla said:

my starter, could i use the vial of white labs that i got? Since i have 2 vials of white labs should i use them both in the starter?

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I would make a starter with an OG of 1.020-1.030, then pitch one vial into it... Let the yeast go nuts on that and see how much you have when it's done... If you pick up a graduated vessel, you can usually use that to tell how much yeast you actually have in the bottom... Then just pour off most of the non-yeast liquid, keep enough so that you can get the slurry out (an inch or two, depending on what you used for a fermenter) and pour that all into the waiting wort...

If you need more yeast, you can always make another starter, for the yeast from your first starter...

I see this as something good to learn how to do. That way, if you don't want to spend the extra money on more yeast, you can just get them to reproduce for you and still get the right amount of yeast to pitch (or close enough to not matter)... I wouldn't worry if you have slightly less yeast slurry to pitch. If you're off by a few percent, it won't really matter that much. I just wouldn't under pitch by 20% (or more)... I also wouldn't over pitch by too much, since that will also not be good.

I would ALWAYS use a starter with White Labs liquid... That way you KNOW it's good... Unlike Wyeast [activator pack], you don't know if the yeast is good until you go to use White Labs...

Use this to figure out how much yeast to pitch: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Two vials will not even be close to how much yeast you need, unless you make a starter. In this case, it is not optional. You MUST make a starter to have enough yeast (unless you want to fork out a bunch of money for multiple vials).

Adding the sugar later in fermentation is not a bad idea, however.

Just ran mr. malty for an OG of 1.100... A gallon starter, with one vial, should provide enough yeast... That's with intermittent shaking (assuming you don't have a stir plate yet)... With a stir plate, you can get away with a 2.6 quart starter... With two vials, you could get away with using a 1-1/2 quart starter (2 quart jar/container)...

Basically, you want ~336 billion yeast cells going into the wort ready for action... Without a starter, you'll need to use 3-1/2 vials of yeast... Since they don't sell 1/2 vials, that means you'd need to buy 4 vials of yeast to get to the right level (or close enough to it)... I suppose you could use 3 vials and a smaller starter, but at that point, why not just use a starter with one (or two)??

This is one of the reasons I like harvesting yeast... I can plan ahead, and make sure I reserve enough of a yeast cake to easily get the amount of yeast I'll need for a big brew... I'm actually planning on doing that for my MOAB... I'll use a small starter to ensure viability, and not shock the yeast too much going into the wort, and be good to go...

I would also advise getting yeast nutrient for the brew you have planned... That will also help your yeast along.

I do have a bottle of yeast nutrients that i was gonna use...i plan on racking an irish red ale to a secondary this weekend could i use use the yeast from the irish red and pitch the wort on it?

Gordzilla said:

im relativly new to brewing so i wanted to stay away from making a starter...you know keep the steps simple. It will be an extract kit (http://www.midwestsupplies.com/bigfoot-s-barleywine.html) and i plan on adding 3/4pd-1pd of brown sugar to the wort during the last 15min of the boil

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Gordzilla said:

I do have a bottle of yeast nutrients that i was gonna use...i plan on racking an irish red ale to a secondary this weekend could i use use the yeast from the irish red and pitch the wort on it?

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If you don't want to make a starter, you could either use four vials of the new yeast, or yes, you could pitch the barleywine on the Irish red cake if you have a yeast that would be good with a barley wine. I'd probably not use an Irish ale yeast with a barleywine, though.

A couple of points...

1) If you add a vial of yeast to a big beer that has already fermented for several days, you will be pitching into an alcoholic environment that is toxic to the yeast (counterintuitive I know, but true). Yeast adapt to the conditions you provide and repitching would probably shock the hell out of them.

2) You will benefit tremendously from learning to make a starter. It is really easy and the only way to ensure that your yeast is viable and that you have an adequate yeast count for your brew. Mr. Malty yeast calculator is an invaluable tool as well. I now wash my yeast and save a ton of scratch not to mention I am starting to acquire a yeast bank that means I am not dependent on my LHBS if I get the urge to brew.

3) If you feel you are not ready to make a starter, make beer instead!!! Pick up another kit that uses the same yeast but is a much lower OG and fairly lightly hopped, brew it, and pitch your barleywine right onto the yeast cake. A starter is just a small batch of beer. A batch of beer is essentially a giant starter that you can drink! You will have plenty of yeast but make sure you use a blowoff tube because this will take off like crazy.

4) Adding sugar is fine, Belgians do it all the time, but brown sugar will leave a molasses flavor. Make sure that is what you want. If not, just use table sugar or corn sugar (I'm sure I'll get blasted and you will hear all about cidery flavors...BS. Table sugar is fully fermentable and will not create off flavors when used in proper proportions). If you are looking for flavor contribution use Dark Candi Belgian Candi syrup ("Belgian" rock candy is just fancy table sugar...just sayin!)

5) Read up on brewing big beers. Barleywines and Imperials are not the same as regular brews and take some special consideration and care to come out right. It will also require a lot longer to condition and come of age so be prepared to wait. You can leave it in the primary for months with no ill effects or you could primary for a month and then secondary for several more.

Welcome to your new obsession

my advice would be to pitch two 11g packs of a dry yeast.

us-05 works well in high-grav beers

thinking im just gonna go get some DME and make a starter is their a certain DME that makes a better starter yeast? If its easy enough to make a starter yeast ill probably do it for all my brews just to kick start them so my 2nd DME question is there a good universal DME for all types of brews?

Definitely don't step outside your comfort zone when it comes to brewing.

It sounds like reusing a yeast cake is going to be the easiest thing for you, but even for a big barleywine you'd be overpitching if you used the entire cake.

Once again, you can use Mr Malty to figure out how much yeast slurry you need, or you can just eyeball it and dump out, say, about 2/3 of the cake and then rack right in.

Gordzilla said:

thinking im just gonna go get some DME and make a starter is their a certain DME that makes a better starter yeast? If its easy enough to make a starter yeast ill probably do it for all my brews just to kick start them so my 2nd DME question is there a good universal DME for all types of brews?

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I usually use the extra light DME for my starters... I want my starters without anything extra (for flavor elements) other than the yeast.

For the Irish Ale yeast cake, it really depends on what yeast you used with that brew... IF it is one that is good for barleywines as well, then you could... I would just collect what you need for the barleywine (another plug to use mr. malty to figure out how much to save) and pour that in once you have the wort in the primary...

BTW, Wyeast 1084 (Irish Ale) yeast is also good for American BarleyWine's... That being said, I think it really has more to do with the yeast actual profile, for determining if the yeast will do well with a style of brew... You might not agree with the general parameters, but like what a yeast gives your brew at a certain temperature range...

Basically, if you like the yeast, and think it will work well with a style, try it... Just be sure of your choice when you go that way.

kanzimonson said:

Definitely don't step outside your comfort zone when it comes to brewing.

It sounds like reusing a yeast cake is going to be the easiest thing for you, but even for a big barleywine you'd be overpitching if you used the entire cake.

Once again, you can use Mr Malty to figure out how much yeast slurry you need, or you can just eyeball it and dump out, say, about 2/3 of the cake and then rack right in.

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I'm going to respectfully disagree on a couple of counts. Stepping outside your comfort zone is the only way to progress as a brewer. I had no idea what I was doing when I made my first batch of extract, first starter, first partial mash, first all grain, first time I washed yeast...I just jumped into the deep end with both feet, learned from my mistakes, and I read everything I could get my hands on. This forum helped me take every big step forward in this hobby and I'm sure will be instrumental in future leaps.

As far as pitching onto an entire cake, the general consensus is that there is little to no risk or ill effects from overpitching on the homebrewing level. Many people will chime in with boogie man stories, but I have not seen anyone post a tale of terror or terrible beer (or even slightly worse off beer ).

I have pitched normal grav beers on an entire cake with no ill effects. The last time I did it was for an American Brown Ale that was 1 of 4 recipes for my wife and I's graduation party...it was the most popular brew and the only one our guests cleaned out completely!

For a big beer like a barleywine it will most certainly be fine. I am not sure I would use the Irish Red...what yeast was it BTW?...but I would not hesitate to pitch onto a 1056 or PacMan cake. I have also used the Mr. Malty slurry calc to determine the appropriate amount of yeast to pitch, but I usually only do that when I plan to wash the rest for future batches.

Ive decided that im gonna go get some light DME tomorrow and pitch a started for my barleywine. Anyone have suggestions of what brand or kind of DME i should get? Or would i be able to use some of the LME that came with the kit it has 12pds 6gold 6amber extract if im not mistaken.

One thing that i do with HUGE beers, although not a popular method, is moderately re-aerate 24-36 hours after initial fermentation has begun. Though not smart for a "normal" gravity beer, i've found the extra aeration helps drive the fermentation with no off flavors from oxidation in big beers (> 1.090) such as barleywines or dopplebocks.

TANSTAAFB said:

I'm going to respectfully disagree on a couple of counts. Stepping outside your comfort zone is the only way to progress as a brewer. I had no idea what I was doing when I made my first batch of extract, first starter, first partial mash, first all grain, first time I washed yeast...I just jumped into the deep end with both feet, learned from my mistakes, and I read everything I could get my hands on. This forum helped me take every big step forward in this hobby and I'm sure will be instrumental in future leaps.

As far as pitching onto an entire cake, the general consensus is that there is little to no risk or ill effects from overpitching on the homebrewing level. Many people will chime in with boogie man stories, but I have not seen anyone post a tale of terror or terrible beer (or even slightly worse off beer ).

I have pitched normal grav beers on an entire cake with no ill effects. The last time I did it was for an American Brown Ale that was 1 of 4 recipes for my wife and I's graduation party...it was the most popular brew and the only one our guests cleaned out completely!

For a big beer like a barleywine it will most certainly be fine. I am not sure I would use the Irish Red...what yeast was it BTW?...but I would not hesitate to pitch onto a 1056 or PacMan cake. I have also used the Mr. Malty slurry calc to determine the appropriate amount of yeast to pitch, but I usually only do that when I plan to wash the rest for future batches.

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Yeah I guess I really mean "only step a little outside your comfort zone each time." There's so much to learn in brewing - if you try to learn it all at once you'll end up absorbing little to none. I like to take small steps so that you can see the effect of your changes. I definitely support being adventurous, that's part of why this hobby is so appealing.

I still consider pitching onto a yeast cake to be one of the worst sins in homebrewing. If you do it, of course you'll make beer. It might even be pretty good, but I don't think it's optimal practice. What I say to everyone is: why spend all this time fretting over your grain bill, the perfectly sized and timed hop additions, figuring out the max efficiency to your all grain system, and then you just want to dump a fat yeast turd in your beer? Making wort is easy, the yeast make the beer. They should be given more respect than all other aspects of brewing.

If you take a great recipe and ferment it poorly, you'll end up with bad beer. If you take a jumbled recipe and treat it perfectly on the microbiological level, you'll at least make something drinkable - something where you'll say, "this isn't bad, but if I change this grain, or remove this hop, it'll be really nice." When you ferment poorly, all you can say is, "I need to pay better attention to my yeast."

So that's where I'm coming from.:cross:

kanzimonson said:

Yeah I guess I really mean "only step a little outside your comfort zone each time." There's so much to learn in brewing - if you try to learn it all at once you'll end up absorbing little to none. I like to take small steps so that you can see the effect of your changes. I definitely support being adventurous, that's part of why this hobby is so appealing.

I still consider pitching onto a yeast cake to be one of the worst sins in homebrewing. If you do it, of course you'll make beer. It might even be pretty good, but I don't think it's optimal practice. What I say to everyone is: why spend all this time fretting over your grain bill, the perfectly sized and timed hop additions, figuring out the max efficiency to your all grain system, and then you just want to dump a fat yeast turd in your beer? Making wort is easy, the yeast make the beer. They should be given more respect than all other aspects of brewing.

If you take a great recipe and ferment it poorly, you'll end up with bad beer. If you take a jumbled recipe and treat it perfectly on the microbiological level, you'll at least make something drinkable - something where you'll say, "this isn't bad, but if I change this grain, or remove this hop, it'll be really nice." When you ferment poorly, all you can say is, "I need to pay better attention to my yeast."

So that's where I'm coming from.:cross:

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I agree that there is so much to learn you need to do it incrementally. AND you need to make small changes at a time so you know what is contributing to better beer and what is just waving your mash paddle in the air and chanting some mumbo jumbo over your wort!!!

I have also been doing some more scouring of the threads on this topic and found this exceptional post. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-not-pitch-your-yeast-cake-166221/ Bob and Denny discussing yeast and ester production...homebrewer GOLDMINE!!!! I have to say you and Bob have swayed my opinion with solid info. I have started paying a lot more attention to my yeast as I have been washing and planning to start a yeast bank. I now measure my slurry to re-pitch instead of knocking out on an entire cake.

BUT, note that Bob does say using an entire yeast cake is OK when brewing a monster beer. He also says it is BETTER to measure and know how much yeast you need and pitch that amount.

Sooooo, for a fairly new brewer I would still say that for a barleywine, RIS, monster Belgian, etc., knocking out on a cake is acceptable advice.

Glad to hear you like what I'm saying!

Here's an example of where I was swayed: in the past I was pretty bad about planning my starters in advance, so frequently it will be brewday and I'll have a starter that JUST finished fermenting but still has a lot of suspended yeast. So I would just pitch the entire starter into my beer. And then I'd get on HBT and I would say the EXACT THING that pisses me off that other people say about pitching on yeast cakes: "I did it and it worked for me."

But then another user pointed this out: yes, of course it will work, and for the most part the active fermentation will clean up any off flavors from the starter liquid. But if you want to make the best beer possible, even if this only means getting 1 extra point on that BJCP scoresheet, then there's no reason not to eliminate the starter liquid.

That was all it took for me. In everything I do, I want to be drinking my beer and saying, "well, I did everything I could to make this the best beer possible." I try to take a lot of cues from pro breweries and mimic their procedures on a home scale.