Anyone got a Surly's Todd the Axe man clone
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Bramstoker17
Well-Known Member
I realize that this is a month old so I'm not sure if you're still looking to clone this, but they list some info on their site. The malt bill is apparently 100% Golden Promise, and hoped exclusively with Citra and Mosaic. Their usual yeast is WLP 007 Dry English Ale.
If I was going to clone this, or at least get something in the ball park, I'd go all Golden Promise for the malt bill, mash around 150 to 152, aim for about 70 IBUs, and really load up on the late hops, hopstand, and dry hop additions. Use WLP 007 for the yeast. I'd probably shoot for an OG between 1.068 and 1.070 I'd guess, and maybe try to finish around 1.012. I think the abv is 7.5%.
If I was going to clone this, or at least get something in the ball park, I'd go all Golden Promise for the malt bill, mash around 150 to 152, aim for about 70 IBUs, and really load up on the late hops, hopstand, and dry hop additions. Use WLP 007 for the yeast. I'd probably shoot for an OG between 1.068 and 1.070 I'd guess, and maybe try to finish around 1.012. I think the abv is 7.5%.
[moved to Recipes; the "recipe database" is for tried and true recipes]
akuhn0301
Member
I talked to Surly's head brewer, Todd the Axe Man himself, and found out a couple of tidbits about this beer.
1) Yes, 100% Golden Promise malt.
2) They actually use Warrior as a bittering hop at the begging of the boil (i know, it's not listed ANYWHERE that this hop is ever used... but it is, trust me). They chose Warrior as a substitute to Hercules that Amager initially used when they first brewed this beer overseas.
3) Calculate your Warrior bittering addition to bring the IBU value to 75. His exact formula was .6lbs per bbl of wort... but we lowly home brewers need to calculate that down to gallons, so it's between 1.5 and 1.75 ounces for a 5-5.5 gallon batch.
4) Spot on with the late Citra and Mosaic additions (in the ratio of 2:1).... He wouldn't give away the full hop schedule but it seems to be a 10 minute or 5 minute addition and then more right at flameout... and then dry hopped through the roof.
5) Surly prefers WLP007 and once again that IS the yeast for this beast.
6) Should be shooting for an OG of around 1.072-1.076 and a FG of 1.016-1.020 and your finished brew should be targeted to balance out at 7.2-7.5% ABV.
Hope this helps.
Bramstoker17
Well-Known Member
Awesome info! Interesting about the FG being that high. This beer had great mouthfeel to it, I'm guessing that was why. They are apparently releasing this in cans very shortly as well!
helg56
Member
Anyone brewed this or tried it side by side in the can? I love this beer and I might try and make this.
I know that Amager's (the original version of Todd The Axe Man) was at least US-05, Herkules bitter and lots of Citra & mosaic in end of boil, 100% golden promise.
Surly says it's their most expensive beer to brew, more expensive than Abrasive, and Amager IPAs usually go for 8$/16oz, so it's probably stupidly dry hopped (twice) and whirlpool additions. e.g at least 2oz hops/gallon
Surly says it's their most expensive beer to brew, more expensive than Abrasive, and Amager IPAs usually go for 8$/16oz, so it's probably stupidly dry hopped (twice) and whirlpool additions. e.g at least 2oz hops/gallon
I'm going to try my hand at this the weekend.
Not shooting for a prefect clone, just something very similar.
15# Golden Promise
Mash at 152
1.5oz Warrior @ 60
1oz Citra @ 10
.5oz Mosaic @ 10
1oz Citra @ Flameout
.5oz Mosaic @ Flameout
Dry hop 1 oz Citra / .5 oz Mosaic, 2 additions probably in the fermenter 5 days each 3-5 days apart
This will likely yield me something a bit hoppier than Axeman, but thats ok! I might adjust my hop schedule to tone it down, but I'll decide when I get home tonight.
Not shooting for a prefect clone, just something very similar.
15# Golden Promise
Mash at 152
1.5oz Warrior @ 60
1oz Citra @ 10
.5oz Mosaic @ 10
1oz Citra @ Flameout
.5oz Mosaic @ Flameout
Dry hop 1 oz Citra / .5 oz Mosaic, 2 additions probably in the fermenter 5 days each 3-5 days apart
This will likely yield me something a bit hoppier than Axeman, but thats ok! I might adjust my hop schedule to tone it down, but I'll decide when I get home tonight.
akuhn0301
Member
I'm kegging my version tomorrow night... here's how I formulated my recipe per Todd's suggestions for a 5.5 gallon batch.
16.5# Golden Promise
Mash at 152
1oz Warrior @60
2oz Citra @7
1oz Mosaic @7
2oz Citra - 20 minute whirlpool
1oz Mosaic - 20 minute whirlpool
WLP007 - 2 vials (was in a rush, no starter this time)
Dry hop - 2oz Citra & 1 oz Mosaic in secondary after racking from primary. Let sit in secondary for two weeks.
OG: 1.072
FG: 1.018
7.1% ABV
Upon first taste when racking from primary to secondary it tasted pretty close but won't be able to really tell until I get a chance to do a side-by-side.
16.5# Golden Promise
Mash at 152
1oz Warrior @60
2oz Citra @7
1oz Mosaic @7
2oz Citra - 20 minute whirlpool
1oz Mosaic - 20 minute whirlpool
WLP007 - 2 vials (was in a rush, no starter this time)
Dry hop - 2oz Citra & 1 oz Mosaic in secondary after racking from primary. Let sit in secondary for two weeks.
OG: 1.072
FG: 1.018
7.1% ABV
Upon first taste when racking from primary to secondary it tasted pretty close but won't be able to really tell until I get a chance to do a side-by-side.
Never had this beer before, but based on the comments I am guessing you are going to need a LOT more late/dry hops for that beer. The Northern Brewer recipe for Furious uses 8.5 oz of dry hops alone for a 5 gal batch, and the previous poster said that this beer is the most expensive that Surly makes, which implies to me that it probably has at least as much if not more hops, since the starting gravities are about the same between the two. I might consider doubling your dry hop (maybe doing a second charge 3-5 days later of the same amounts) if you still have time. But obviously if it tastes right to you, that's all that matters!
JG
akuhn0301
Member
Yep. They just started canning it in July. Distribution stayed in Minnesota for the first month but hit shelves here in Milwaukee the second week in August... spendy at $17-$19 (depending on where you find it) for a 4-pack of pint cans but soooooo good.
akuhn0301
Member
Yeah, I'll be able to tell more closely after a side-by-side but I can see how that could be the case... but as we all know, our dry hopping is more about aroma than anything else. I'm hoping that the extended flameout/whirlpool addition does the same trick with this beer. As for it being an expensive brew... it is, cost me roughly $70/$75 for ingredients alone but that's in part to the use of imported British Golden Promise malt in such a large quantity as well... I just hope the taste in on point.
Had to delay kegging... got busy tonight with the wife and kiddo... kegging to commence tomorrow instead.
NickTheGreat
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Exciting. I grabbed a 4-pack in small town Iowa last week after I thought it was gone. Rumor is more of it is popping up in Des Moines this week
I still have a Furious clone in a keg that is pretty darn good.
I still have a Furious clone in a keg that is pretty darn good.
D-Train
Well-Known Member
I'm about 2/3 of the way through a keg of beer that's heavily inspired by Todd. I wasn't trying to clone it. This is the best IPA I've made to date.
It's golden promise plus a half pound of light carastan. Hopped with citra, mosaic, and simcoe, in that order of most-to-least; with warrior for bittering. Except bittering, all hops were whirlpool or dry hop with total 9 oz. between whirlpool, dry hop, and keg. I fermented with Yeast Bay Vermont Ale. Almost as much chloride as sulfate (110/169). OG 1.064 FG 1.018 ABV 6.1%. I'm brewing this again as-is and will probably make it a staple at my house though I might up the base malt and hops just slightly. Buying hops bulk online is critical to keep the costs down on this one.
Anyways, let us know how it turns out.
It's golden promise plus a half pound of light carastan. Hopped with citra, mosaic, and simcoe, in that order of most-to-least; with warrior for bittering. Except bittering, all hops were whirlpool or dry hop with total 9 oz. between whirlpool, dry hop, and keg. I fermented with Yeast Bay Vermont Ale. Almost as much chloride as sulfate (110/169). OG 1.064 FG 1.018 ABV 6.1%. I'm brewing this again as-is and will probably make it a staple at my house though I might up the base malt and hops just slightly. Buying hops bulk online is critical to keep the costs down on this one.
Anyways, let us know how it turns out.
StrangerDejaVu
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Any updates on this one? Planning to give it a brew at the end of the week... Looks like a solid recipe!
akuhn0301
Member
Turned out REALLY good... only thing I would change would be to move the 7 minute hop addition to 10 to get it a bit hoppier and then do a double dry hop... one immediately after secondary transfer and then another a week later. Only reason i'd change anything is that I just enjoy hoppy beers... Otherwise, quite a solid brew. In comparision to Todd... I'd say the recipe delivers an 8 or 9/10 in how close it really does come out.
LoloMT7
Well-Known Member
I'm drinking this beer now and I completely agree with you JG.. I'd do WAY more dry hops if I tried to clone it. I would probably do 6-9 oz maybe 2 additions. This really is an excellent beer I might have to give it a try. Nice sweet candi taste on the finish much like a lagunitas brew imo.
I forgot to update this thread. I'm drinking this right now. Definitely not a clone, but a great beer none the less. When I brew this next time, I will keep the same hopping schedule, but cut the grain back to thin it out some. Its too malty. It does taste like liquid citrus though on the first sip. It smells so juicy. I might even up the warrior bittering too. I like my dry hop where it is for my preference. I did 7 days with DH #1, 10 days with DH #2 I am not shooting for a direct clone, just something in the same ballpark.
I produced a great beer. Just need to fine tune it over the next couple renditions.
Pictures are worth 1000 words
Mines on the right, Todd the Axeman on the left, in the Todd the Axeman glass.
Side by side they are similar tasting and smelling. Real Todd has more bittering hops, but mine seems to have more juicy hops. Mine also seems too malty, as seen by the darker color. Over all, for just a guestimate im happy with it.
Mines on the right, Todd the Axeman on the left, in the Todd the Axeman glass.
Side by side they are similar tasting and smelling. Real Todd has more bittering hops, but mine seems to have more juicy hops. Mine also seems too malty, as seen by the darker color. Over all, for just a guestimate im happy with it.
P
paullyb11
Guest
going through this thread I am putting together my version of this wonderful beer, I have not home-brewed in a while and was wondering if you would be willing to help me out and make sure i don't screw anything up. I live in the area, BP
snowboarda42
Member
How long is everyone fermenting for in primary and secondary?
Any updates on future versions? I'm thinking of brewing this next.
Why raise the mash? Personal preference or trying to get it closer to Todd? I personally prefer drier IPAs so I'm hesitant to go that high on the mash. And some of the commentary that it is maltier than Todd makes me even more leery.
Amadeo38
Well-Known Member
Just wanted to say I brewed the clone originally described by @akuhn0301 on page 1 with a bump in OG due to my accidental 80% efficiency and an extra pound of GP in the mash. I also used a yeast cake of Nottingham instead of 007. Ended up being 9.2% and very close to the Axeman!
I can't speak to Todd (one of my favorites, btw), but most DIPA recipes I've seen use some sugar to get the ABV up there without ending up with a really high FG or malt bomb. Based on the beers I've brewed, a good hopping strategy is to get 30% of your IBUs in the early boil addition, the other 70% with late boil, FO and WP additions. With this I'd plan on 12-15 oz of late addition, WP and dry hops minimum. Given the ABV, I might go as high as 18 oz.
I'd make sure you get your wort well oxygenated and put together a good starter (or two packets of dry yeast rehydrated). I think I'd try this with 1318 since it's my favorite IPA yeast. I get a great mouthfeel and a really juicy beer with it.
For water, I'd do RO and add gypsum and calcium chloride to get to 150 ppm chloride and 75 ppm sulfate (my standard NEIPA water profile). You'll probably need a couple ounces of acidulated malt to get the pH down. I try to mash at about 5.3.
This is also my brother's favorite, so I think I'll put together a recipe and give it a go. I'll post the recipe when I've got it figured out.
I'd make sure you get your wort well oxygenated and put together a good starter (or two packets of dry yeast rehydrated). I think I'd try this with 1318 since it's my favorite IPA yeast. I get a great mouthfeel and a really juicy beer with it.
For water, I'd do RO and add gypsum and calcium chloride to get to 150 ppm chloride and 75 ppm sulfate (my standard NEIPA water profile). You'll probably need a couple ounces of acidulated malt to get the pH down. I try to mash at about 5.3.
This is also my brother's favorite, so I think I'll put together a recipe and give it a go. I'll post the recipe when I've got it figured out.
Amadeo38
Well-Known Member
Ah yeah, I forgot to mention that I made some of the obvious tweaks needed for an IPA not included in the original recipe, such as 8oz sugar to dry it out, some lactic to drop mash pH, and my typical “hoppy” blend of gypsum and cacl for the mash and sparge water
From what I've seen in 2 tries so far it gets close but is not it.
I didn't raise the temp. I wanted to balance the boil additions, however I think the secret to less harsh bitter finish is reducing the boil addition or even remove them entirely and the water profile, doing this with more CaCl than gypsum inlike regular IPA where is the other way around (if you have RO).
I dry hopped 4 oz per 5 gal (3:1 citra:mosaic), I could do that twice. It gets expensive in a hurry!
When I try this again
I didn't raise the temp. I wanted to balance the boil additions, however I think the secret to less harsh bitter finish is reducing the boil addition or even remove them entirely and the water profile, doing this with more CaCl than gypsum inlike regular IPA where is the other way around (if you have RO).
I dry hopped 4 oz per 5 gal (3:1 citra:mosaic), I could do that twice. It gets expensive in a hurry!
When I try this again
- Mash in 152F
- 1/2-1oz Warrior at 90min ( maybe added later 60min)
- Few addition at flameout and then most of them whirlpool at 160F for 20-30mins
@Hwk-I-St8
"For water, I'd do RO and add gypsum and calcium chloride to get to 150 ppm chloride and 75 ppm sulfate (my standard NEIPA water profile). You'll probably need a couple ounces of acidulated malt to get the pH down. I try to mash at about 5.3."
If my calculations are correct, that is 6gr CaCl and 3gr of gypsum ? Isn't that low ?
"For water, I'd do RO and add gypsum and calcium chloride to get to 150 ppm chloride and 75 ppm sulfate (my standard NEIPA water profile). You'll probably need a couple ounces of acidulated malt to get the pH down. I try to mash at about 5.3."
If my calculations are correct, that is 6gr CaCl and 3gr of gypsum ? Isn't that low ?
Good luck on this project. I've had Axeman maybe 20 times indifferent bars and the brewery and cans. It is an incredibly inconsistent beer. The cans were perhaps a couple months old and terrible--full of hop debris yet no little hop aroma and ugly oxidized brownish color. $16.99 for the 4 pack I was not at all happy. Drinking it in bars I find the bittering is inconsistent as is the aroma. When this beer is good it is fantastic but probably last half a dozen times I've tried it I was less impressed. Most reliable location is the brewery and they don't sell any to go.
You need to move to Midwest(Frozen North).
Any hoppy beer needs to be consumed in a timely fashion manner... I never noticed any inconsistency. Before buying check the cans, there should be label on them.
Any hoppy beer needs to be consumed in a timely fashion manner... I never noticed any inconsistency. Before buying check the cans, there should be label on them.
I’m only getting Todd in and around Minneapolis. It’s great at Surly but inconsistent elsewhere in the area and I only tried the cans the one time. Was not happy with them and didn’t do it again.
Subbed!
Amadeo38
Well-Known Member
Update - this batch disappeared really quickly. I think that might be one of he primary indices of whether a homebrew is good or not. The recipe on the first page should definitely mention dropping the grain bill to account for the added sugar needed to dry it out like it needs. Mine even turned out well with a huge pitch of Nottingham yeast cake that didn’t attenuate as much as you’d hope in a IIPA.
Sorry, I missed this somehow. The 150ppm chloride and 75ppm sulfate are my typical targets for NEIPAs. I've seen people go as high as 200/100, but, from what I've read, it can get minerally if you push it too high.
Shrug...I built those numbers based on stuff I've read combined with some experimentation. I really like the results of that, so other than working up to them, I've never really strayed.
Out of curiousity, what makes you think that's low? What would be more typical from your perspective?
When you dry hop, you have your first go around with the citra and mosaic hops, when you ad the next round of citra and mosaic did you leave the other hops in the beer as well or did you remove the old hops?
