eHERMS diagram

Williams 728
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j_jones84

j_jones84

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See any glaring errors?

Auberin-wiring1-a4-1.jpg


I have some Littlefuse fuse holders (L60030M-1SQ) I plan on fusing some stuff... just not sure where, which, what size.

Not sure how the timer is wired. Anyone bought one of those from Auberins?


Timer

Contactor

Selector


Pump Switches
 
I am not an expert.

I don't see "Main" power switch to shut the whole thing down. Kind of an E-Stop.

I'm guessing you are planning a temp probe in the HLT only and boiling with in manual mode?

Other than that the logic looks good at a quick glance.
 
I am sure you are going to want to add another SSR so both hot legs are switched. If these SSR's fail, they usually fail "ON" so if you only switch one of them there is the possibility of having your element full ON in the event of an SSR failure. It would be unlikely they both would fail at the same time.
 
Sawdustguy said:
I am sure you are going to want to add another SSR so both hot legs are switched. If these SSR's fail, they usually fail "ON" so if you only switch one of them there is the possibility of having your element full ON in the event of an SSR failure. It would be unlikely they both would fail at the same time.
Click to expand...

I kinda thought that was what the contactor coupled with the selector switch was for.
 
Sawdustguy said:
I am sure you are going to want to add another SSR so both hot legs are switched. If these SSR's fail, they usually fail "ON" so if you only switch one of them there is the possibility of having your element full ON in the event of an SSR failure. It would be unlikely they both would fail at the same time.
Click to expand...

There are two camps on that issue. Switch one SSR and have use a kill switch or switch both SSRs (and still need a kill switch).

I am on the "1 SSR" side of that line and was the one that suggested he could use a selector to control which contactor was on, or set that selector to an unused setting for "EVERYTHING OFF".
 
j_jones84 said:
I kinda thought that was what the contactor coupled with the selector switch was for.
Click to expand...

OK, what happens when the contactor is in the on position, you have just about reached the setpoint on the PID and the SSR fails. What is in your kettle is going to keep on cooking. The only way the element will be unenergized is if you physically set the switch that controls the contactor to off and I hope you are around to notice. Ideally you want the PID to turn the element off if one of the SSR's fails. Having the second SSR is a $20 insurance policy. Kapish?
 
Sawdustguy said:
OK, what happens when the contactor is in the on position, you have just about reached the setpoint on the PID and the SSR fails. What is in your kettle is going to keep on cooking. The only way the element will be unenergized is if you physically set the switch that controls the contactor to off and I hope you are around to notice. Ideally you want the PID to turn the element off if one of the SSR's fails. Having the second SSR is a $20 insurance policy. Kapish?
Click to expand...

Do you recommend I put 2 SSR's in series for my 120v RIMS heater?
 
Sawdustguy said:
OK, what happens when the contactor is in the on position, you have just about reached the setpoint on the PID and the SSR fails. What is in your kettle is going to keep on cooking. The only way the element will be unenergized is if you physically set the switch that controls the contactor to off and I hope you are around to notice. Ideally you want the PID to turn the element off if one of the SSR's fails. Having the second SSR is a $20 insurance policy. Kapish?
Click to expand...

I see your point.

But, the safety fall back could still be implemented by running the contactor's 120V control signal (pre selector switch) through the built-in alarm relay on the PID, too.
 
Ohio-Ed said:
Do you recommend I put 2 SSR's in series for my 120v RIMS heater?
Click to expand...

If you want the fail-safe/redundancy insurance that Sawdustguy is talking about, yes you would need to put an SSR on the neutral line for a 120V element, too.

I am not trying to say that 1 SSR is "the way" to do things. Just presenting a different point of view and design.

I actually don't have mine wired up with any fail-safe right now, but I think I am going to add one when I get home tonight using the alarm relay on the PID to prevent me from over-heating my MLT if my SSR ever fails. :D
 
Walker said:
If you want the fail-safe/redundancy insurance that Sawdustguy is talking about, yes you would need to put an SSR on the neutral line for a 120V element, too.

I am not trying to say that 1 SSR is "the way" to do things. Just presenting a different point of view and design.

I actually don't have mine wired up with any fail-safe right now, but I think I am going to add one when I get home tonight using the alarm relay on the PID to prevent me from over-heating my MLT if my SSR ever fails. :D
Click to expand...


I have my 220v elements wired with 2 SSR's. But I did it so I didn't have a "hot leg" in the control panel when the element was suppose to be off, not so much as a fail safe in case a SSR fails in the closed position. The failsafe is a nice benefit, but not the original reason for dual SSR's.

My 120v RIMs heater has a single SSR, similar to that shown in the RIMs for Dummies thread where the inspiration to build it came from..

Ed
 
I think you would want some sort of buzzer here to know that the alarm had been triggered.

Not having one could mean that you end up HERMSing/RIMSing at a higher temp than you wanted and using the little relay in the PID and the contactor to do the on/off switching, which isn't ideal.

Then again, the contactor is going to make a very audible CLACK when it triggers, and your temp will be higher than the set point so you would probably notice that happening pretty easily.
 
Walker said:
I think you would want some sort of buzzer here to know that the alarm had been triggered.

Not having one could mean that you end up HERMSing/RIMSing at a higher temp than you wanted and using the little relay in the PID and the contactor to do the on/off switching, which isn't ideal.

Then again, the contactor is going to make a very audible CLACK when it triggers, and your temp will be higher than the set point so you would probably notice that happening pretty easily.
Click to expand...

Some of the PID's have audible alarms built in. In this case instead of removing continuity between the PID and SSR I would have the alarm relay remove the coil voltage from that contactor so both hot sides are removed.
 
Sawdustguy said:
Some of the PID's have audible alarms built in.
Click to expand...

Cool! My PID is cheap, and just has a little light that turns on when the alarm fires.

Sawdustguy said:
In this case instead of removing continuity between the PID and SSR I would have the alarm relay shut off that contactor.
Click to expand...

Right... this is what I was suggesting. Run the contactor's 120V coil signal through the alarm relay on the PID so that the whole contactor shut off if the alarm triggered.
 
Hey. You guys have OFFICIALLY went over my head. My design needs adjusted? I am not getting the alarm thing. What would it trigger off of? How are they configured? When the alarms goes off what would I do? Run around screaming and cashing out my 401k?
 
j_jones84 said:
Hey. You guys have OFFICIALLY went over my head. My design needs adjusted? I am not getting the alarm thing. What would it trigger off of? How are they configured? When the alarms goes off what would I do? Run around screaming and cashing out my 401k?
Click to expand...

All we are saying is that with your diagram the way it is now, you have the potential for a problem if the SSR fails. If the SSR fails, they usually fail in the ON state which means the only way you could turn the element of is by setting your switch to off because both sides of the element would have power. There are two ways to fix it. The first one is to add another SSR so both legs of the 220 vac going to your element are controlled. You would simply run the control lines from the PID to the SSR you have now to the second SSR also. The other thing you could do is run the coil for the contactor through the alarm relay so if your PID detects the temperature going too high the voltage to the contactor coil is turned off by the PID's alarm relay. Adding an SSR is the preferred but using the alarm relay will work in a pinch.
 
Sawdustguy said:
Adding an SSR is the preferred but using the alarm relay will work in a pinch.
Click to expand...

I don't want to start a Holy War on this, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that 2 SSRs is "the preferred" way. It's the preferred way of some folks, yes, but not for others.

I really don't want another SSR in my box. Too much space taken up and too much heat being generated. Besides, even if you DO use two SSRs, you are still at risk of over heating if both of the SSRs fail, right?

How rare is a double SSR failure? Probably extremely rare. But, I haven't really seen people speaking up about having even a SINGLE SSR fail. Yes, I'm sure it happens, but appears to also be sufficiently rare enough for me to just go with the PID relay as my insurance policy. I don't consider this something being done "in a pinch". I consider it a conscious design decision to protect against a (rare) SSR failure.
 
Walker said:
I don't want to start a Holy War on this, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that 2 SSRs is "the preferred" way. It's the preferred way of some folks, yes, but not for others.

I really don't want another SSR in my box. Too much space taken up and too much heat being generated. Besides, even if you DO use two SSRs, you are still at risk of over heating if both of the SSRs fail, right?

How rare is a double SSR failure? Probably extremely rare. But, I haven't really seen people speaking up about having even a SINGLE SSR fail. Yes, I'm sure it happens, but appears to also be sufficiently rare enough for me to just go with the PID relay as my insurance policy. I don't consider this something being done "in a pinch". I consider it a conscious design decision to protect against a (rare) SSR failure.
Click to expand...

You could look at it that way. There is nothing wrong with it. You may have seen my build thread, but I am rebuilding my brewery so that it has full automation and I can walk away. If I engineer something to walk away I try to minimize any possible failure. Thats why on my rig I have a flow switch as well as a site glass on the output of the RIMS tube and utilize an alarm relay.

new brew.jpg



I would use two SSR's because it could lead to a situation where you could loose a batch, an element etc if I was not monitoring the brew closely. I am not suggesting that I would set up my brewery and leave and come back a few hours later because in all of our breweries we use things like gas and electricity and from a pure safety issue, I like to keep an eye on things. It depends on how comfortable you feel with what you are doing. I am certainly not going to criticize anyone for what they do, even if I don't agree with it. To each his own, but the OP did ask us and I replied. Whether he chooses to follow my suggestion is totally up to him. All I can do is explain why I would do things a specific way and let him make the decision. Thats way I never participate in the electrical code threads. If the OP decides to add another SSR, below is the wiring for it. If not, thats ok too.

Auber.jpg
 
I agree with everything you are saying, Guy.

I guess my only issue was the wording you used. When you say 2 SSRs is "the preferred" way and the PID relay is someting to do "in a pinch", that makes it sound like one way is Right and the other way is Wrong, which is not the case.

Like almost anything in homebrewing, there are really very few Rights and Wrongs to anything.

:mug:
cheers!
 
The OP asked me to help with a revised diagram:

Here it is:



j_jones84,

(Click on the image for a larger picture)
I hope it suites your needs.
 
Sawdustguy said:
P-J,

You did a real nice job re-drawing the diagram but I see a problem. The ASL-51 has an internal relay that is rated at 12 amps @ 120 vac. Normal voltage is 220 volts. If you do the math with a 5500 watt element the current is 25 amps. If you divide the current between each 120 volt leg each leg will flow 12.5 amps to the element. Since the internal relay in the ASL-51 is rated at 12 amps, you are a little over it's 12 amp rating. The ASL-51 may work, but it's internal relay's life may be well shortened by operating a slight bit more than what it is rated at.
Click to expand...


You've officially lost me now, Sawdust. :D

edit: That timer is only supplying the contactor coil voltage, not the element power directly. Also, an element that pulls 25A @ 220V is not going to pull 12.5A from one hot and 12.5A from the other hot. it will pull 25A in through one hot and send 25A out through the other hot.
 
Sawdustguy said:
No problem, I tend to think faster than I write and sometimes don't explain very well when writing (typical engineer).

He is using the internal relay in a Auber Instruments Timer Model ASL-51 to switch one of the legs of his 220v line. Since he is using a 5500 watt element at 220v he will draw 25 amps. The 220 line is made up to two 120 volt legs. If he is drawing 25 amps each of the 120 volt legs much supply 1/2 of the 25 amp draw or 12.5 amps. Does that make sense so far? The internal relay in the ASL-51 is only rated for 12 amps. He will be pumping 12.5 amps through the relay which is slightly over the rating. The relay's life may be shortened by operating over it's rating. He may get away with it for a while but who knows? Does that explain it a little better? Now I understand why my boss hates to read my design reviews.
Click to expand...

See the "edit" I made to my previous message.
 
Walker said:
You've officially lost me now, Sawdust. :D

edit: That timer is only supplying the contactor coil voltage, not the element power directly. Also, an element that pulls 25A @ 220V is not going to pull 12.5A from one hot and 12.5A from the other hot. it will pull 25A in through one hot and send 25A out through the other hot.
Click to expand...

Just call me an Idiot.....I totally missed that one.......
 
I think I am going to go with one SSR and use the alarm on my PID. Thanks for BOTH opinions with both having valid points. Thanks for helping in this thread and in others of mine.
 
P-J said:
The OP asked me to help with a revised diagram:

Here it is:



j_jones84,

(Click on the image for a larger picture)
I hope it suites your needs.
Click to expand...

P-J you rock man. I need to get you on the phone soon, just finished welding on my stand and am looking at getting some parts coming in for the box.
 
Hey, kind of an update. I am going with some larger pumps than I had planned on and also noticed I can get a 50amp GFI breaker for the same or less money than a 30amp GFI. Any reason I can not just dump the 50 into the current design?
 
Also thinking about clever uses for the timer. I don't really want to get into anything automated, if I was going that route I would have went with BCS or something similar. With that said, I was thinking of a few uses for the timer.

Timer to audible buzzer. Easy peasy. Thinking I might want a SPST switch to turn the buzzer off.

PID to buzzer on overheat. Could I use the same buzzer for this or would I need two? This would be for an SSR failure (Although I will be present and able to monitor the temp)

PID to Timer to Switch. PID heat to 154, PID alarm starts timer, timer count to 60, timer alarm kills power to contactor and rings buzzer.

Timer after 60min boil sets off buzzer and kills power to contactor.

Not really sure what I can do with this thing. So far I am thinking just the timer to buzzer. Pid to buzzer would be nice in case something goes wrong while I am cleaning or being drunk.
 
You certainly can do that - But - you have to be mindfull of the wire sizes that you will be using. With that setup you might want to include breakers inside your control panel or a least additional circuit fuses.

When you get a chance, lets talk it out.
 
+1 on using breakers inside the panel. You don't want to run 50A rated wire everythere.

Also, note that you will need a power cable rated for 50A frrom the wall to the panel.

Upsizing the cable and installing more breakers might make that 50A service more expensive in the end.
 
Figured as much. Need to size the wire to current necessary to trip the breaker. I already have extra fuse holders. Would some 30amp slow blows do the trick?

Where would I neck it down?

Also I am thinking about making a stirrer to help minimize some hose connections on brew day. I have a motor I got at a garage sale. 120v .43A, was wondering if I could just put it on a dimmer switch or if I need to get a potentiometer.

PJ, I pulled the trigger and purchased a bunch of stuff including some extra copper to try out your HVAC air conditioner idea. Need to call you soon but we are having a planned outage this week and I will be away from home working until next tuesday.

Walker, did you still need that light from Mouser? I am going to copy your DIN rail mounting and will be ordering within a few weeks. Any suggestions on what I need? I just followed the 5 or 6 items you linked.
 
j_jones84 said:
Figured as much. Need to size the wire to current necessary to trip the breaker. I already have extra fuse holders. Would some 30amp slow blows do the trick?
Click to expand...
You could use fuses... but probably not slow-blow. Those are meant for electric motors and compressors.... things that have a high current draw when they are first turned on, but then settle down to a normal current level. Fast blow is probably the better choice.

But, I honestly would use mini breakers. You can get panel mount breakers at mouser.com or ones that mount to a DIN rail. If they trip, you can reset them instead of having to buy and replace a fuse.

j_jones84 said:
Where would I neck it down?
Click to expand...

Main cable comes in and hits power distribution block, and then immediately connects to the smaller breakers or fuses before going on to other components.

j_jones84 said:
Walker, did you still need that light from Mouser? I am going to copy your DIN rail mounting and will be ordering within a few weeks. Any suggestions on what I need? I just followed the 5 or 6 items you linked.
Click to expand...

Nope. Ohio-Ed already hooked me up for the switch that I needed.

What exactly you need as far as modular power distribution depends on how many things you want to end up connecting to that block.

I used 2 modules per incoming line. This allows me to connect the incoming power cable to the distribution block and branch that line out to three other wires.

Layout on mine looks like this when assembled on the rail (color coded below for aid in understand as neutral, hot, hot, ground):

[ END-STOP]
[ MODULE ]
[ MODULE ]
[PARTITION]
[ MODULE ]
[ MODULE ]
[PARTITION]
[ MODULE ]
[ MODULE ]
[PARTITION]
[ MODULE ]
[ MODULE ]
[END-PLATE]
[ END-STOP]
Adjacent modules of the same color are bridged together with a small piece of the jumper bar that I linked to in that other post. (I bought a jumper that was 10-units long and cut it into a bunch of 2-unit chunks to bridge the modules together.)

If you need to branch more than 3 wires out from the incoming wire, you can just add another module in the right place and use a 3-unit piece of the jumper bar. Expand as much as you want. I like the flexibility of being able to go in later and just add another module if I need it.

The modules are cheap (like $0.60 or something?), so I ordered a few extra ones so that I could expand later if I needed to.
 
Walker said:
You could use fuses... but probably not slow-blow. Those are meant for electric motors and compressors.... things that have a high current draw when they are first turned on, but then settle down to a normal current level. Fast blow is probably the better choice.

But, I honestly would use mini breakers. You can get panel mount breakers at mouser.com or ones that mount to a DIN rail. If they trip, you can reset them instead of having to buy and replace a fuse.



Main cable comes in and hits power distribution block, and then immediately connects to the smaller breakers or fuses before going on to other components.



Nope. Ohio-Ed already hooked me up for the switch that I needed.

What exactly you need as far as modular power distribution depends on how many things you want to end up connecting to that block.

I used 2 modules per incoming line. This allows me to connect the incoming power cable to the distribution block and branch that line out to three other wires.

Layout on mine looks like this when assembled on the rail (color coded below for aid in understand as neutral, hot, hot, ground):

[ END-STOP]
[ MODULE ]
[ MODULE ]
[PARTITION]
[ MODULE ]
[ MODULE ]
[PARTITION]
[ MODULE ]
[ MODULE ]
[PARTITION]
[ MODULE ]
[ MODULE ]
[END-PLATE]
[ END-STOP]
Adjacent modules of the same color are bridged together with a small piece of the jumper bar that I linked to in that other post. (I bought a jumper that was 10-units long and cut it into a bunch of 2-unit chunks to bridge the modules together.)

If you need to branch more than 3 wires out from the incoming wire, you can just add another module in the right place and use a 3-unit piece of the jumper bar. Expand as much as you want. I like the flexibility of being able to go in later and just add another module if I need it.

The modules are cheap (like $0.60 or something?), so I ordered a few extra ones so that I could expand later if I needed to.
Click to expand...


I just finished re-wiring my panel. I bought a bucket load of stuff, some used during my design/prototyping, some never used. My thought was to eventually pull together a list and put it in the classifieds (once I was sure I wouldn't need it for expansion or another project). I probably have nearly enough stuff to build another panel (including an extra box)... I have terminal strips (panel mount and din rail), jumpers, din rail, fuse holders... etc...

j_jones84 -
When you get a list together of what you need, if you're interested we might be able to work something out. I'm not in a hurry... PM me if you are interested.
 
ok so for my own clarification, since i'm trying to wire my control panel very similarily, the one hot leg is controlled by the PID and will switch the element on/off through the temp control, and the other hot leg is controlled by the selector switch you have?

if you decide you want to turn off the element for either the kettle or HLT but still want to monitor the temp how would this work? would the hot leg connected to the PID not continue running, meaning you still have 120V going into your vessel?

could you not have a dual sided selector switch to connect both hot legs so when its off, its literally off completely off?

and what do the contactors do?

sorry for all the questions, just trying to figure out how to organize mine
 
hammis said:
ok so for my own clarification, since i'm trying to wire my control panel very similarily, the one hot leg is controlled by the PID and will switch the element on/off through the temp control, and the other hot leg is controlled by the selector switch you have?
Click to expand...

Not exactly. The hot line drawn in dark blue is directly connected to the contactors. The PID is allowing the the hot drawn in red to pass through the SSR and flow on to the contactors. The selector switch controls which of the two contactors is enabled (this allowing the two hot lines to pass through to one of the two elements.) If the selector is put in the center postition, neither of the contactors will be enabled and the two hot lines end up going nowhere. Center postition is basically "ELEMENTS BOTH OFF".

hammis said:
if you decide you want to turn off the element for either the kettle or HLT but still want to monitor the temp how would this work?
Click to expand...

As long as the PID is powered up, the temp will be shown on the display. The PID doesn't know or care if you have killed power to the elements or not.

hammis said:
would the hot leg connected to the PID not continue running, meaning you still have 120V going into your vessel?
Click to expand...
If you have the selector set to either the HLT or the BK, then there would always be one of the hot lines energized going to that element. The element will not get hot because there is no complete electrical circuit. The other hot from the SSR needs to be ON for there to be any heating actually happening, but that one hot line would be energized and you wouldn't want to touch it.

hammis said:
could you not have a dual sided selector switch to connect both hot legs so when its off, its literally off completely off?

and what do the contactors do?
Click to expand...

See my description above about what the contactors and the selector switch are actually doing. They are part of the override ON/OFF controls for the elements.

Contactors are just large heavy duty switches controlled by a lower voltage and lower current signal.

When the selector is to the right, the contactor for the BK closes and the two hot lines become connected to the BK element.

When the selector is to the left, the contactor for the HLT closes and the two hot lines become connected to the HLT element.

When the selectir is in the center position, both contactors will be open and the hot lines are not connected to either element.
 

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