240v heating element question

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lknbigfish

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i am looking in to doing a 10 gallon BIAB setup and have just started reading all of the posts about going electric and my head is spinning.

can someone give me a quick primer?

i need to be able to boil ~16 or so gallons, i would like to be able to control the temp, and need it to be safe and simple. this is going to be down the road and after alot more research, i just need someone to point me in the right direction. most of the electric rigs are way more complicated than needed for my 1 vessel biab.
 
For temp. controlled 240VAC useage I would use:

5500W element ($18) NEED THIS (get a ULWD element, easy to find on the net)
Auber PID ($45) NEED THIS (auberins.com)
Two 40A SSRs with heatsinks ($30) NEED THESE (Ebay)
Thermocouple ($6) NEED THIS (auberins.com)
Distribution block (~$18) MAY NEED THIS (automationdirect.com)

This will give you excellent temp. control.
It will give you the ability to boil your volume

The PID and Element can be powered by 240VAC
The PID has (2) connections where the thermocouple plugs in
The PID has (2) outputs that need to go to the SSRs

This would be super easy to wire up

One HOT to each SSR, each of those HOTS coming out of the SSR to the element.

Two HOTS to the PID

Thermocouple wired to the PID

Thermocouple inserted into kettle

PID output (+/-) to BOTH SSRs

The distribution block is so that you can tap hots and neutrals and grounds etc. from the incoming main line. You may need it, you may find a way around it...
Boom, done
 
lknbigfish said:
thanks for the quick reply. when you put it like that it doesnt sound bad at all.
Click to expand...

There are really very few wires. Power to the PID, power to the element (that goes through the SSRs) and a connection between the PID and the SSRs... that is really it.

Rigs look complicated because you are seeing (4) elements wired this way, with multiple PIDs and switches and such.

If you want, you can place a 30A DPST switch on the (2) HOTS going TO the SSRs so that you can override any PID outputs. I did that on my last rig, it was nice. Basically your hots come in, run through the switch FIRST, then on to the SSRs.
 
Thats good info right there; Pol certainly know his stuff. Don't forget GFCI protection as well.
 
Right, make sure these elements are supplied by a properly sized GFCI circuit in your CB panel. Be safe out there.
 
So I am moving toward an electric setup up as well. I am planning 240V, 5500w LWD elements. This pulls 23 amps. Is it safe to use 25A SSRs, or is this cutting a bit to close?
 
I read (I think it was on the Crydom website) that the manufacturer recommended choosing an ssr that was rated about 50% higher than the load that would commonly be run thru the ssr. I think that the 40 amp would run cooler than the 25 amp if you are going to use a 5500 watt element.
 
I always used 40A SSRs, unless it is on a pump. If I recall, the price diff. in a 40A and 25A is negligible. I bought 40A SSRs with heatsinks for $16 for the set... I think the 25A sets were $15.
 
lknbigfish said:
would a spa disconnect be a good option or a gfci breaker in the main panel or another place?
Click to expand...

Yes... it would. Many ppl use spa disconnects, many use a breaker in the main panel... it is up to you, so long as you have GFCI protection for your system.
 
Here is a link to "tech tips" on the Crydom website. They have an article entitled "Selecting an SSR". This article states: "as a general rule consider a using the relay at no more than 70% of its rated current". This is about the same as selecting an SSR rated about 50% higher than the proposed load.
I will caution you, however, that this same article shows wiring diagrams with a 240 vac load controlled with a single SSR on one limb of the 240 vac circuit. It is hard to imagine this from the people trying to sell you SSRs... ;-)

http://www.crydom.com/en/Tech/Tips.shtml
 
The Pol said:
I always used 40A SSRs, unless it is on a pump. If I recall, the price diff. in a 40A and 25A is negligible. I bought 40A SSRs with heatsinks for $16 for the set... I think the 25A sets were $15.
Click to expand...

Hey Pol,
Where did you find your 40A SSR/Heatsink combos. $16 for the set appears to be a pretty good deal, though I haven't really researched pricing extensively.
 
I would also suggest considering a definite purpose contactor, not in place of the SSRs, but rather as a cheaper option to using two SSRs and waterproof DPST 30A switch. These are basically inexpensive mechanical relays designed for high power. I always feel better knowing there is a physical point of disconnect when I have the power turned off. I use them to connect both legs of all my high-current loads (heater elements).

Basically when I switch on an element, the contactor energizes and feeds one leg to the receptacle and the other leg to an SSR, which is controlled by the PID. When the switch is off, the PID is still controlling the SSR, but the hot side of the SSR isn't receiving any power. This eliminates the possibility that the element will get stuck on if the SSR fails and gets stuck in the on state. Granted, the chances that two SSRs (Pol's example) will fail at the same time is pretty remote, but a 40A contactor is cheaper ($14 @ Auber)than a 40A SSR and (for me) offers more piece of mind. Besides, I think the old-fashioned clunking sound they make when they turn on and off is really cool. Then again I also have a '48 Harley Flathead and a '64 Land Rover and I listen to '40s era music, so I may be a bit biased toward old stuff :)

MrH
 
JBStith said:
Hey Pol,
Where did you find your 40A SSR/Heatsink combos. $16 for the set appears to be a pretty good deal, though I haven't really researched pricing extensively.
Click to expand...

Ebay... I bought 10 NEW SSR-heatsink combos for less than $170 total
 
MrH: My set up is similar to yours except I use a 30 amp DPST switch instead of a contactor. My elements are 4500 watts so they draw less than 20 amps and the switch is rated for 24 amps. Not as sexy as the switch is totally quiet...
What kind of switch do you use for your contactor?
 
stevehaun said:
MrH: My set up is similar to yours except I use a 30 amp DPST switch instead of a contactor. My elements are 4500 watts so they draw less than 20 amps and the switch is rated for 24 amps. Not as sexy as the switch is totally quiet...
What kind of switch do you use for your contactor?
Click to expand...

I don't have pics of my CP here at work, but this is the switch I use. I think the contactor coil only draws a hundred milliamps or so @120V, so the switch doesn't need to handle much. I don't fuse mine, but it would be easy to add one. I chose a switch with an indicator built in so it lights red when the switch is turned on. I have a separate yellow indicator that lights when the element actually cycles on. These switches are a bit pricey, but you could use a simple rocker or toggle switch that would only cost a couple bucks.

MrH
 
I am building a electric HLT as well. I am using a 220 volt element for just heating the strike and sparge water. I am having trouble finding a regulator for the temperature. I have 2 rancos for my fermenting box and my kegerator and they work great. I dont think its designed to carry this much load thou. I only want to be able to adjust the amount of power going to the element. The temperature control that comes with a ranco would be great but not a necessity. I also looked at rheostats but they dont seem to be able to carry the load. I plan on having a electrician come and install the 220 outlet so maybe he has some ideas. Please let me know what you think.
 
To handle switching on and off the large amount of current that the heater element will draw, you are going to probably need to purchase solid state relays (SSRs) and then buy or build something to control those relays.

Are you trying to have the temp of the HLT automated so that you can just set the desired temp and walk away or are you wanting to manually turn up and down the power and monitor the temp yourself?
 
dannyb said:
I am building a electric HLT as well. I am using a 220 volt element for just heating the strike and sparge water. I am having trouble finding a regulator for the temperature. I have 2 rancos for my fermenting box and my kegerator and they work great. I dont think its designed to carry this much load thou. I only want to be able to adjust the amount of power going to the element. The temperature control that comes with a ranco would be great but not a necessity. I also looked at rheostats but they dont seem to be able to carry the load. I plan on having a electrician come and install the 220 outlet so maybe he has some ideas. Please let me know what you think.
Click to expand...

The really, really simple way is just to watch the temp and unplug, or switch off, the power when you are at the temp you want. I went the switch route my first electric brew. Worked great for the strike water, not so great for the boil (too much power!).

For a regulator, you could buy something from this guy
http://www.brewmation.com/Elements.html
I think this is the expensive way to go, but i'd bet they work great and you don't need to fool around with DIY if you don't want to.
 
You can build a simple pulse width modulator to control a solid state relay for a couple of bucks, which would allow you to turn a knob to set the power to the element anywhere from 0% to 100%. It's really easy and requires just a few electronics components (you could get all of the parts at radio shack, but it'll cost a lot more than ordering from some place like mouser.com).

You would still need a large solid state relay (or two) to handle the on/off switching of the 220V feed. The SSRs can be had for about $10 - $15 each on ebay.

It adds up pretty quickly; relays and pulse width modulator, high-amp wires/cables/plugs/receptacles, some sort of enclosure for it all.
 
Ill be down there (my basement) while the HLT is heating up so i can manage the temp my self. Having something fully automated isnt really what im looking for just a way to control the temp. I can wait to have it running this will be so awesome.
 
The Pol said:
One HOT to each SSR, each of those HOTS coming out of the SSR to the element.
Click to expand...

Quick question: Why are you running two SSR's? You can run one and achieve the same thing. Or are you only doing this to shut off both legs so there is no hot line to element? If everything is done right, a GFCI breaker is used (of course it should be) and nothing live is exposed (which there shouldn't be) than this is overkill in my opinion. All it's doing is wasting twice as much power.

my $0.02.
 
Bjornbrewer said:
Quick question: Why are you running two SSR's? You can run one and achieve the same thing. Or are you only doing this to shut off both legs so there is no hot line to element? If everything is done right, a GFCI breaker is used (of course it should be) and nothing live is exposed (which there shouldn't be) than this is overkill in my opinion. All it's doing is wasting twice as much power.

my $0.02.
Click to expand...

Wasting power? How does an SSR waste power?

It makes sense in my build, I have no physical control panel, so when I select RIMS HEATER 1 OFF on my PC control panel, I want ALL power off. My entire rig is wirelessly controlled from my netbook.

I mean, with 4 elements on the brew rig, I dont want (4) live wires running around it when the system is powered down. It was $30 to get the SSR and heatsinks to power down each element, so it wasnt bad IMHO
 

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