not a vienna lager?

I went to dinner with my dad this evening at John Harvard's in Framingham, MA. He had their Vienna Lager. I tasted it. I didn't like it. It tasted a lot like an Oktoberfest, which I also do not like. In an attempt to figure out what ingredient gave it the flavor I don't care for, I asked the waitress if she could find out what malts they used for this beer.

Given my dislike of Oktoberfest, I've long assumed it was Munich and/or Vienna malt that I don't care for, so I expected this recipe to contain one or both. Much to my surprise however, these are the malts I was told went into their Vienna Lager:

Pale
Crystal
CaraPils
Chocolate
Dark Brown Sugar

I shrugged, still wondering about that flavor I don't like, ate my dinner, and drank my Stout. Only on my ride home did it occur to me that this really did not sound like a recipe for a Vienna Lager. I've never made one, so I don't really know for sure, but does this seem right to anyone else? I think they gave me the malt bill for a different brew - perhaps their "Old Man Winter", which was also on tap.

Well, I guess you can call a cat a dog but it doesn't make it a dog.

Vienna lager has to have vienna and/or munich in there but many of them also have a good deal of pils malt. I think of Vienna lager as an Oktoberfest without any "cara" malts and hopped just slightly more.

JLem said:

Given my dislike of Oktoberfest, I've long assumed it was Munich and/or Vienna malt that I don't care for, so I expected this recipe to contain one or both. Much to my surprise however, these are the malts I was told went into their Vienna Lager:

Pale
Crystal
CaraPils
Chocolate
Dark Brown Sugar

I shrugged, still wondering about that flavor I don't like, ate my dinner, and drank my Stout. Only on my ride home did it occur to me that this really did not sound like a recipe for a Vienna Lager. I've never made one, so I don't really know for sure, but does this seem right to anyone else?

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That's a lousy recipe for a Vienna. A Vienna should be made with....wait for it....Vienna malt, up to 100% or at least a large percentage. That looks like a bad 30 year old homebrew recipe. A real Vienna lager is a thing of beauty. In crude terms an Oktoberfest would be in the same family as a Vienna but with higher gravity and a bit darker with the addition of a portion of Munich malt. Maybe you don't like Oktoberfests because they aren't hoppy or perhaps you haven't had a good one yet. Don't give up on the style because of that bad brewpub beer.

I think John Harvard's is a good brewery, so I have a hard time believing this is their recipe for a Vienna Lager. I should have realized it at the time, but they must have given me the recipe for a different beer. It tasted a lot like an Oktoberfest, so this really couldn't have been the recipe. As for me not liking Oktoberfests - there really is a distinctive flavor that I don't like. Every one I've tried (which, admittedly, are not that many) have had that same taste. I don't think it's a lack of hops - it's either a malt or a yeast thing.

Probably the yeast. I've given up on Belgians, except the low-ABV Blondes.

I think your suspicion that they gave you the grain bill for the old ale/winter warmer type beer is correct. I can see a pub making a vienna or marzen with pale and crystal malt but I think the brown sugar would be a bit absurd, whereas everything in that bill would be welcome in the old ale.

That's about as close to a vienna lager as I am close to getting laid year. (not at all *sigh*)

Vienna lagers should contain very little or no roasted/crystal malts at all.

They should be a majority vienna or a combination of vienna and munich. And like others have said, a thing of beauty...Malty without a lot of body, and very clean.

This is a great podcast on viennas if you are interested.

December 29, 2005 - Vienna Lagers
We talk to Chris Colby of Brew Your Own magazine about Vienna Lagers, a style favored south of the border. Chris takes us through the style and how to make great Vienna lagers at home.

Click to listen-MP3

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I used it to create my vienna lager recipe, which ended up earning an honorable mention in the Michigan Ren. Fest's Bjcp Sponsored Beer Barons Brew Brawl.

My recipe is here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f59/revvys-vienna-lager-147772/

I agree that recipe doesn't look right for a Vienna. It looks like something in the 'Comments' section of the BJCP guideline for Vienna lager is spot on:

American versions can be a bit stronger, drier and more bitter, while European versions tend to be sweeter. Many Mexican amber and dark lagers used to be more authentic, but unfortunately are now more like sweet, adjunct-laden American Dark Lagers.

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I agree that crystal and roasted malt flavors are out-of-style. If anything, use Carafa Special (instead of Chocolate) for the color, and use very sparingly.

It was posted above that an Oktoberfest should be stronger and darker but Vienna lager is actually a little darker than Oktoberfest (per BJCP anyway). Oktoberfests should also have a 'creamy' mouthfeel quality that, while present, should be subdued in Viennas.

One of the things about Viennas is getting the color dark enough without the roasted/crystal flavors. Sinamar is supposedly really good for this but I still haven't tried it.

SpanishCastleAle said:

One of the things about Viennas is getting the color dark enough without the roasted/crystal flavors.

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Yeah, if I recall in the colby i-view he gave a % of crystal that could be used as color, without affecting the flavor...Iirc that I might have used the "exact" percentage or close to it that he talked about.

Mine was;

8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.26 %

There are a couple good articles from BYO

http://***********/component/resource/article/1935-vienna-lager-tips-from-the-pros

And this is the Colby article that is the companion to the basic brewing podcast.

http://***********/component/resource/article/1597-vienna-lager-in-exile

I like the conclusion where he talks about the subtle differences between vienna and other styles;

Similar Styles
If you replaced the words “Vienna malt” in this article with “Munich malt,” you would have a pretty good description of how to make a Märzen — a style that, like Vienna lager, can be thought of as a “little Octoberfest.” Throw in some dark Munich malt and just enough chocolate (or Carafa®) malt to get a hint of roast and you’re on your way towards a dark Munich-style lager.

Vienna lagers are a great everyday beer. They’re also a great “everyone” beer — appealing both to beer fans and folks who think of beer as fizzy, yellow water. The recipe for Vienna lagers is simple — as simple as Vienna malt and one hop addition — and your success in brewing one will come from your skill as a brewer, not from a complicated recipe.

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JLem said:

As for me not liking Oktoberfests - there really is a distinctive flavor that I don't like. Every one I've tried (which, admittedly, are not that many) have had that same taste. I don't think it's a lack of hops - it's either a malt or a yeast thing.

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If you haven't, I would recommend trying an imported German Oktoberfest (around Oktoberfest time, too). I was like you in that I found all the ones I tried the same. Until I was introduced to the German variaties. There's a big difference. I still don't love them, but I've certainly come to appreciate them.

On the topic of Viennas, I'm with everyone else, that is not a Vienna recipe. I just tapped my first ever lager, a Vienna as it turns out. Came out hoppier and less malt driven than I would like. In fact, I wouldn't even call it a Vienna, but it's pretty darn tasty!

The recipe for Vienna lagers is simple — as simple as Vienna malt and one hop addition — and your success in brewing one will come from your skill as a brewer, not from a complicated recipe.

Click to expand...

See I think this is where some of the confusion comes in. A Vienna/noble SMaSH doesn't yield a dark enough beer (and depending on your Munich malt... even a Munich/noble SMaSH prob isn't dark enough either). A Vienna lager starts at 10 SRM and goes all the way up to 16. A Vienna/noble SMaSH doesn't meet the the style guidelines regarding color (even if you double-decoct it imo). I know we can brew whatever we want and call it whatever we want but I think we still need 'standards' to go by.

And fwiw, the lager I most recently tapped was a Vienna/Saphir SMasH (OK, technically it was a Special Aromatic/Saphir SMaSH but Franco-Belges Special Aromatic is the same color as a Vienna malt). It's WAY too light colored to be a Vienna.