GarageDweller
Well-Known Member
setup in the alley behind the bar and undercut his prices. "just don't tell them where you got it from". wink wink...nudge nudge
p.s.
eff the police!
p.s.
eff the police!
Selling homebrew through local pub
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BAD advice all around!
I wonder how they police this in states like CA where breweries can self-distribute. How do they know brewery XYZ is licensed? Especially if it is from out of the area or even out of the state.
Hopper5000
Well-Known Member
they will shut you down and then go look it up/research it. Might inconveniently take them a while to do that too...
JeepDiver
Well-Known Member
I have a friend who does it with mead in his bar and beer is soon to follow. He even uses his equipment from home. He was completely transparent in what he planned to do and all they required was a permit (around $1000) from the STATE...
JeepDiver
Well-Known Member
Then you friend better hope the feds don't come across him or someone gets pissed and turns him in. It is against the law to produce alcohol for commercial sale in the US without a federal permit. Period, end of story
Are you a lawyer in real life or just on the internet?
JeepDiver is right Oddball, it's not a matter of being a lawyer at all. It's a federal law, one that is talked about in extensive "How to sell my beer" posts.
Why don't you have a look:
http://www.ttb.gov/beer/qualify.shtml
I'll even make it easier, please read this:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...;view=text;node=27:1.0.1.1.20;idno=27;cc=ecfr
It's very simply against the highest laws in the land to sell ANY alcohol without paying off the right government agency. Here is the rules for doing so. If your friend is selling his beer without this, I would not be in the bar when he does...
Why don't you have a look:
http://www.ttb.gov/beer/qualify.shtml
I'll even make it easier, please read this:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...;view=text;node=27:1.0.1.1.20;idno=27;cc=ecfr
It's very simply against the highest laws in the land to sell ANY alcohol without paying off the right government agency. Here is the rules for doing so. If your friend is selling his beer without this, I would not be in the bar when he does...
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Oddball is in Canada. Maybe his friend is too. Obviously different laws in our neighbor to the north...
That second link didn`t make it any easier. There is a lot there to look through. All I see is information on starting a brewery/production of large quantities, not a bar making and selling small quantities. There isn`t a discrepancy there? It isn`t possible that it is recognized differently by state and federal officials alike? I am not sure why the State would neglect to mention this if in fact he needed a federal license, especially considering that he was completely upfront with his intentions. I am not the only one in the thread who has heard of this by the way....
JeepDiver
Well-Known Member
No it is not different. If you make 12oz of alcohol for sale in the US of A you have to have a federal license.
I must admit when I need too, I didn't see that you were in Canada, I know nothing at all of the laws there. I'm sorry Oddball. As far as in the US, it's very against the law. That said damn I wish we could!!!
JeepDiver
Well-Known Member
The OP is in Ohio, on a board based in the US, so the assumption is we are talking about US laws. So not sure where Oddball's friend is located, but as far as the points of this thread, it is illeagle to sale homebrew to in the United States, and since he said the State his friend is in, not province or territory, then I am going to assume his firend is in the US. So if you don't want your friend to get in trouble, you need to tell him to find a lawyer to find the best course to get the proper license, or to stop selling home made alcohol
Yep....No exceptions!! What I question is the actual enforcement of these laws especially as it pertains to homebrew. Try as I might still haven't found a single case of a homebrewer being fined/cited/arrested for breaking the law. I am NOT saying you should or that it is the right thing to do. It is clearly illegal. But if past practices are any indication the police/TTB/ABC are not going to track you down either.
Except we aren't talking about something federally recognized as "homebrew" (beer is beer), we are talking about a bar selling beer brewed illegally w/o the proper licences and taxes. Trading or selling your beer to your neighbor for a small price....low radar signature, probably will never be caught, local police may not care. Commercial beer sales from a bar, high radar signature, Fed and local govts who are missing out on the tax and permit revenue will care (once the miffed distributor rats you out).
To all that have mentioned the illegality of what is being proposed you are all correct. To those that think there is a way around this, there isn't and you all have to remember that any legal liquor establishment, retail or bar or restaurant, they all deal with distributors and if a distributor goes into an establishment and sees tap space or shelf space or whatever being taken by an unlicensed/illegally produced beverage they will report it and then you are screwed. Period.
It is not difficult to apply and be approved to be a licensed brewer. The fact remains that the government would like nothing more than for you to be successful and generate the liquor tax dollars you have to pay and post bond for. It is however a very time consuming process and requires upfront money just like any other business start up.
I currently have two fellow brewers in the final stages of getting their license and going pro with two new brewery/tap rooms so I have been following the process closely as I have been helping them with their set ups. It has taken both parties close to a year to get this far and both are shooting for May/June for their licensing to arrive. First and foremost, there is no way to avoid the Federal laws and they trump everything, then you need to not only deal with your individual state laws but local zoning and regulation ordinances that may also apply wherever you live.
As a side note, there have been many threads like this on this site and if the conversation continues with ways to try and skirt the laws the Mods will close the thread as suggestions of illegal activity on this site are against the rules.
It is not difficult to apply and be approved to be a licensed brewer. The fact remains that the government would like nothing more than for you to be successful and generate the liquor tax dollars you have to pay and post bond for. It is however a very time consuming process and requires upfront money just like any other business start up.
I currently have two fellow brewers in the final stages of getting their license and going pro with two new brewery/tap rooms so I have been following the process closely as I have been helping them with their set ups. It has taken both parties close to a year to get this far and both are shooting for May/June for their licensing to arrive. First and foremost, there is no way to avoid the Federal laws and they trump everything, then you need to not only deal with your individual state laws but local zoning and regulation ordinances that may also apply wherever you live.
As a side note, there have been many threads like this on this site and if the conversation continues with ways to try and skirt the laws the Mods will close the thread as suggestions of illegal activity on this site are against the rules.
I'm a little lazy to read all 6 pages of this thread, but would forming a nano brewery be easier?
http://www.ttb.gov/beer/beer-faqs.shtml#b10
Sorry if this has been touched on - add and whatnot.
http://www.ttb.gov/beer/beer-faqs.shtml#b10
Sorry if this has been touched on - add and whatnot.
BoxMan said:
Not to be an asshat but if you're too lazy to read through this post there's no way you'll navigate what's required to open a brewery, nano or mega, they all have to play by the same rules
What used to be my favorite homebrew shop was also a mini brewery and tasting room. Once a month at each homebrew club meeting we would vote on the best beer of the night and the member that had the winner of the night would come in and brew it at the pub on their system. The beer would be featured on the "guest" tap. The guest tap always had a brew that a member of the club devised and or brewed.
Just to clear up any confusion...Yes I am in Canada, but like you said I was talking about a friend in the States. I will talk to him next time I am there (two weeks) because I really want to know more of the details of exactly what he was told by the state. Maybe I misinterpreted what he said and sorry for getting testy. I had a few too many Guinnesses that night....
I think it is pretty clear that we weren't discussing skirting any laws related to selling beer. I only brought up what my friend was told by the state after contacting them about selling his homebrew in his bar and that was that he only needed a state permit to sell small quantities made on site.
TwoJays
Active Member
Duboman certainly laid it out. I have been thinking a good while about the prospects of going pro and a large part of that involves studying the legal hurdles that lie ahead, of which there are quite a few. I would strongly urge your friend to research the federal rules involving alcohol sales because if someone wants to make an example out of him, they will. I would hate to hear of a fellow brewer's life being destroyed simply because they had a lack of information.
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