busting my decoction cherry (renamed thread)

Alright, the plan was to do my first decoction this weekend, on the good Baron's basic hefeweizen (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=21016)

Since it now sounds like Glibbidy isn't going to be able to make it down, I'm going to backburner the decoction for the time being. I've got Noonan's book, but have not had a chance to read it closely, nor will I before Sunday. So, I know I could just do a single infusion mash and call it a day, but if I wanted to get that decoction character (whatever it truly is) by subbing in some melanoidin malt, how much would I want to use? Sub in a half pound? A full pound? Quarter pound? I have no idea for a recipe like this.

Or, screw it all and just do a single mash and be happy with it?...

EDIT: I'm probably going to do a step mash, I'll do a short protein rest at ~122 (right?). Gotta figure out those calcs, but the grain bill is small enough where I should be able to simply do an infusion.

Decoction. You don't need it, especially in a hefe.

Also, FWIW, I recently did a wheat beer and lost only 3 points (compared to the last one with a 122 degree protein rest step mash) in my efficiency with just a single infusion.

This decoction stuff is starting to become a sore subject with me. You guys are doing it for no reason. No one can prove the beer is any different.

I wanna try it, just 'cause. Hell, it's tradition, you know? Even if there's no discernable difference, I like that it's brewing with a very old-school technique, that's just kind of neat. I'm not trying to argue that all beers need to be decocted, it's just something different to try. I can't imagine I would ever do it for more than 10% of the beers I make.

Anyway, I'm leaning towards a half-pound, subbed in for some of the pils. You concur?

I wanna do the step mash because my efficiency has been SO TERRIBLE lately, I want to squeeze as many points out as I can.

I made a pale ale a while ago with .5 lb melanoidin, just because I had never used it before. Ive been putting off bottling, but its going down tomorrow. I'll let you know if I can taste it or if it is overpowering. I think .5 lb is reasonable.

Dude, I can see where your coming from, a decoction isnt "necessary" for most (if any) brews. But why not try it? It adds a little complexity to the process, which can be a good or bad thing. Im interested in trying it sometime, after I get mashing and sparging down cold. It seems like if the process works for a brewer, he could cut down on the adjunct grains in a brew, and by extension, the amount of adjunct grains he would need to keep in stock. Years from now I will do a side by side experiment. I'll let you know how it comes out.

- magno

I'd skip the melanoidin and just do your damndest. I think the major advantage of a step rest with a Hefeweizen is actually the acid rest which will make the finished product more Hefeweizen-y.

And Dude's in the decoction closet.

magno said:

Dude, I can see where your coming from, a decoction isnt "necessary" for most (if any) brews. But why not try it? It adds a little complexity to the process, which can be a good or bad thing. Im interested in trying it sometime, after I get mashing and sparging down cold. It seems like if the process works for a brewer, he could cut down on the adjunct grains in a brew, and by extension, the amount of adjunct grains he would need to keep in stock. Years from now I will do a side by side experiment. I'll let you know how it comes out.

- magno

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Because you don't need to do it. The Germans decocted their beers because of the under modified malts. It was the only way to get what they wanted out of it.

We have super-modified malts available to us. Therefore, decocting is pointless. It adds more effort and more time to an already lengthy brew day.

Knock yourselves out though.... And send me one to prove me wrong.

I've decided to do a single decoction. Make it relatively simple for my first go-'round. I'll be posting for help later on

Decocting isn't pointless if you're using a cooler mash tun and want to do step mashes with multiple rests without thinning out your mash excessively by adding more and more water.

Decoction mashes are supposed to be thinner, though, right? What kind of water-to-grain ratio should I be shooting for?

Buford said:

Decocting isn't pointless if you're using a cooler mash tun and want to do step mashes with multiple rests without thinning out your mash excessively by adding more and more water.

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<sighs...>

the_bird said:

Decoction mashes are supposed to be thinner, though, right? What kind of water-to-grain ratio should I be shooting for?

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When I did it I used 1 1/3 quarts per pound. I don't know that there's any hard and fast rule as to how much to use.

It was something that was mentioned in a Basic Brewing Radio podcast, that the mash should be thinner than usual. Just not sure *how much* thinner.

1.3-1.5 q/lb should be OK.

Bird I heard over on the norther brewer forum to skip the protien rest and do an acid rest at 110*, then step up to normal temp.

There is a monster thread called great bavarian weisbier project or something.

I was thinking of doing an acid rest (fairly thickly), doing a regular hot water infusing to get to protein rest temp, then doing a decoction on a third of the mash to get up to ~152&#176;. Single decoction, but I'll have both a protein and an acid rest.

Got a lot of reading to do tonight...

the_bird said:

I was thinking of doing an acid rest (fairly thickly), doing a regular hot water infusing to get to protein rest temp, then doing a decoction on a third of the mash to get up to ~152°. Single decoction, but I'll have both a protein and an acid rest.

Got a lot of reading to do tonight...

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Pualk on there who seems to know his stuff said a protein rest is not needed but the acid rest is. pointed out the acid rest is normally not done by homebrewers.

anyway good luck.

I usually pull about 40% out of the mash when I'm doing a decoction.
It really isn't that complicated, but can be tricky the first few times til you get comfortable with it.

Alrighty, help me with timing. The acid rest. Shooting for around 110&#176;, right? How long should I hold that temp before infusing to the protein rest temp? How long should I hold there before pulling my decoction? Boil the decoction for what, maybe 15 minutes for this style?

Here are the temp ranges.

95-110 °F Acid / Gluconase Rest
120-127 °F Protein Rest
145-159 °F Sacharification
170-178 °F Mash out

20-45 minutes for each should do the trick. The longer you boil they greater the impact on the flavor. You could easily get away with 20-25 minutes. Personally I only do single decoctions, and have it coincide with a 60 minute mash. So it doesn't take much additional time. Consider it a different way to kill the time while your waiting that 60 minutes for the mash to do it's job anyway.

One more thing bird, it's pretty steamy.....so be prepared for your eyeglasses to steam up.

Now, when you do your decoction, I've read that I should hold the thick part of the mash in the sacharification range for about five minutes or so before bringing it up to a boil (presumably to get some conversion of the starches before the enzymes in that part of the mash are denatured). Do you do this, or do you just bring it up to a boil without pausing at 150&#176;?

I slowly bring it to a boil. I must have missed the lesson that calls for holding it at 150 for 5 minutes.

I know I heard that, I think it was Chris Colby on BBR last fall.

Pisser you can't make it down this weekend, but have fun doing whatever you're doing, and thanks for the advice!

You betcha, Sorry I double booked. I'm headed up to Norwich, VT for a family event.
Even got a designated driver

Have fun, and enjoy the heck out of your decoction.

Glibbidy said:

I slowly bring it to a boil. I must have missed the lesson that calls for holding it at 150 for 5 minutes.

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Better if you do it at 158 for 15-20 minutes. The reason is that 150 is not that efficient for alpha rest yet. Also when returning boiled portion to main mash - don't do it all at once, it's very easy to overshoot with the temperature.

A protein rest is basically for clarity, right? Does it make sense, since this is a hefeweizen, that I wouldn't stay very long at protein rest temp, maybe only a couple of minutes? Does it add significantly to the beer's stability or do anything else?

the_bird said:

A protein rest is basically for clarity, right? Does it make sense, since this is a hefeweizen, that I wouldn't stay very long at protein rest temp, maybe only a couple of minutes? Does it add significantly to the beer's stability or do anything else?

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It is for efficiency purposes. Breaks down longer chains.

EDIT: Which in turn breaks down proteins, helps lautering, etc.

Alright, a lot of work, but a ton of fun.



Think it went alright. Overshot the acid rest by a bit, so I had to add quite a bit of cold water to get to 110&#176;. Held for twenty minutes. Infused up to 124&#176; for a ten-minute protein rest, no problem. Pulled about eight quarts of thick mash, tried to hold at saccrification temps for ten minutes, but the thermometer was goofy and I shot right through up to 170&#176; (how does a mash go from 147&#176; to 170&#176; WITH THE DAMN BURNER OFF?)

Boiled the thick mash for about twenty minutes, until pretty much ALL the water was evaporated. Had a ***** of a time getting up to saccrification temp, though; I let the decoction cool down too much before re-infusing to the thin mash, so I only got to 144&#176; and had to do ANOTHER biggish infusion, never even got to my 152&#176; target. Mash ended up very thin; I was planning on about 1.6qt/lb (a bit on the thin side, which I've heard is good for decoctions), but ultimately was probably close to 2 qt/lb. Grr. Probably will be a thin beer, but that'll at least make it real drinkable.

But, lots of fun, not something for every batch but absolutely something I will do again.

THANK YOU for all the help!

EDIT: Oh, and that fake wood used as a wind screen? Later on, it did catch on fire, of course

I usually shoot for a thinner than normal mash when doing decoctions...I like to be in the 1.5-2.0 qt/lb range. The reason is that all of the enzymes will be in the liquid portion of the mash. By mashing thin you ensure that there is plenty of liquid left in the mashtun while you are boiling the decoction and hence plenty of enzymes are left in the mashtun.

That's what I was thinking (honestly!).

I still need to learn how to read that schedule you posted; how long DO you usually boil the grains for with this recipe?

Boiling time depend on the beer you brew. For lighter beer like pilsner I boil 5-10 min, for bock 20 all the way.

Generally speaking, it varies. With this particular recipe I'd boil for ~15 minutes.

It would probably help to see the mash graph; I'll try and get that hosted and linked. The pull time for the decoction is what tells the story: 70 minutes should account for pulling the decoction, raising the temperature slowly to 158F, holding for ~15m, then slowly raising to boiling and boiling for 15-20m, and then reincorporating it to the mash. It's probably a conservative figure and I imagine I did it all in closer to an hour or less.

Before I do this again, I need to figure out something other than the Banjo Cooker for doing the decoction. There was no slow rise to 158 - I blew threw temps quickly, too quickly I'm sure. I either need to REALLY throttle the thing down (not sure if that's possible) or maybe try stovetop boiling, if I've got enough BTUs there. Oh, well, learning experience.

I can turn my fryer down pretty low and let it come up slowly while stirring. You probably got a good deal of carryover heat even after you turned the heat off, and I've noticed that if I hit the target temp (say 158) I sometimes need to remove the pot from the cooker since the stand itself can continue adding heat even after the flame is off.

Also, the center of my pot where the flame is concentrated can be 20+ degrees hotter than the outer edges if I don't stir well.