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BeanPot Brewery

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Thanks in advance for the tutorial, but I've seen many scientific terms thrown around in some of these forums that have sailed right over my head.
I admit, science was not my favorite subject. The extent of my scientific knowledge is: Too much beer - Too little sleep = Hangover.

I am curious about hot and cold breaks; what they mean and if there is a way to ascertain whether you've achieved them.

Also, I was wondering what the reason is for steeping grains at 150-170 degrees (I've seen both temps, still not sure which is best), and what that specifically accomplishes?

Cheers
 
Hot break is the point in the boil when some of the proteins in the wort settle out. There is an abrupt decrease in the amount of foaming and "floaties" are formed.

Cold break, when additional compounds settle out in well chilled beer, post-ferment. (oops, this is chill haze)

The steeping temperature is selected to allow sugars and flavor chemicals in the grains to dissolve, but avoid dissolving tannins, which give the ale a "pucker" flavor.
 
Thanks. So I take it a good hot break, plus some Irish Moss, will take care of most of the proteins that could make a beer cloudy
 
BeanPot Brewery said:
Thanks. So I take it a good hot break, plus some Irish Moss, will take care of most of the proteins that could make a beer cloudy
A lot of things can contribute to a cloudy beer. Good hot and cold break removal and using IM will help. Type of ingredients, ie; wheat, oats for example can contribute to hazy beer. Infections also can cloud beer. The list goes on. Extract beer is usually worry free compared to All Grain brewing, but you can still get chill haze. The main concern is how the beer tastes and next is how does it look.
i like to have a clear looking beer, but as long as it tastes great....
 
david_42 said:
Cold break, when additional compounds settle out in well chilled beer, post-ferment.
i believe you've defined chill haze, not cold break.
Cold break is the proteins that coagulate and fall out of solution after rapidly chilling the wort, prior to pitching the yeast. (in Palmer's words...)

Edit: in fact, i'm not even sure that's a good definition for chill haze, as chill haze doesn't necessarily "settle" out...but it definitely precipitates out of solution
 
BeanPot Brewery said:
Also, I was wondering what the reason is for steeping grains at 150-170 degrees (I've seen both temps, still not sure which is best), and what that specifically accomplishes?
Depends on the process. Base malt (2-row) needs to be mashed (Soaked in water usually 148-156 for an hour to allow enzymes in the grain to break down sugars that can be fermented). Steeping specialty grain is different. These grains (Crystal Malts, Chocolate Malt, Roasted Barley) just need some of the flavors and colors extracted. They are soaked in 170 water for a half hour, similar to making tea. Soaking the base malt in 170 degree water will stop the enzymes from working.
 
As alluded to above... the temperatures refer to the concept of mashing versus steeping grains. For an extract brewer to accomplish a more complete taste they will steep grains in hot water.. this water should not exceed 170F or you run the risk of extracting tannins. Why 150F water could be appropriate for some invovles the concept of mashing.. read on if you like.

Mashing basically refers to the process whereby enzymes present in certain grains will convert the starches in the barley, wheat, oats, pumpkin, potato, etc. to (mostly) fermentable sugars. Through this process you end up with a sugar rich fermentable liquid that the yeast transform into beer. There are various enzymes that do various things and they are each active at various temperatures and PH ranges. It will suffice to say that for the all grain brewer a ph in the range of 5.2-5.3 and a temp (in an infusion mash) of 153 is a generally accepted compromise. If you were doing a true mini mash as some around here do then you'd let the grains soak in water at this temp for 50 or 60 minutes - this process would result in a more "beer like" complex flavor as well as some fermentables because the enzymes effectively converted the starches to sugar. Now, if all you're doing is soaking the grains in hot water then hotter water will probably do a better job of rinsing sugar from the grains. This is, of course, assuming that you're using grains suitable for this purpose; suitable grains are those that have already had a lot of their starches converted to sugar through the malting process. Any enzymatic activity that would occur (assuming you're using grains that are enzyme rich) will be quickly halted at these higher temps as the heat will quickly denature them... this is no concern though because all you're expecting is some flavor and color and few, if any, fermentables. That's the long end of it.

Here's the take-away: If you're using grains that have already had a lot of starches converted (i.e. crystal malt) then steeping them in 170F water will remove these sugars but will not convert any remaining starches to sugar b/c the enzymes were denatured by the heat. You won't get a lot of fermentables from this process but will get a good amount of flavor. Hotter water (to a point) is better. If, on the other hand, you're using grains that have not been malted and are very starchy (i.e. oats or wheat) then simply soaking them in hot water will do nothing because there are no residual simple sugars present.. only starches. For these grains they will have to be mashed (150F) in the company of some base malt (2 row or 6 row) that is enzyme rich. The base malt will provide the enzymes needed to convert the starches in the oats or wheat to sugar so that you can then extract it and the yeast can ferment it. So, to answer your question, the appropriate temperature is part of a larger process - steeping vs. mashing - and which process you should use is really dependant on what type of grains/adjuncts your using and what you want to get out of them (and, of course, what equipment you have handy).

Hope this helps..
 
Brewsmith said:
They are soaked in 170 water for a half hour, similar to making tea. Soaking the base malt in 170 degree water will stop the enzymes from working.
Where have you ever seen to steep grains at 170? :confused: Every reference I've ever seen says steep at ~150F.
 
El Pistolero said:
Where have you ever seen to steep grains at 170? :confused: Every reference I've ever seen says steep at ~150F.

I'll have to dig up a source of you want proof, but I have seen brewing instructions that have said to steep grains in hot water, but caution to not let the water get any hotter than 180°F.

-walker
 
Thanks folks.
I've been doing this for years, but never really got into knowing exactly what I was doing until I found these forums.
I have a whole new lease on life...and liver.
 
Imperial Walker said:
I'll have to dig up a source of you want proof, but I have seen brewing instructions that have said to steep grains in hot water, but caution to not let the water get any hotter than 180°F.

-walker

I've seen several sources that say to put the grains in when the water reaches 150, then continue to apply heat and remove the grains when the temp reaches 170.

Seems like this could lead to short steep times with a high-BTU propane burner, but could be just right (20-30 minutes) on a stove top.
 
true for conversion of starchy grains, but most of the time when you are steeping grains, you are using grains that do not need conversion; they have starches already converted and caramelized (crystal) or have had the starches burned away (roasted).

In fact, it was stated here that "steep" means you have no grains involved that need conversion. :)

-walker
 
Palmer agrees with what Walker said above.


I read this tidbit this morning:

Howtobrew.com Section 2 Chapter 13-2 said:
Steeping specialty grain is like making tea. The crushed grain is soaked in hot 150 - 170°F degree water for 30 minutes. Even though a color change will be noticeable early on, steep for the entire 30 minutes to get as much of the available sugar dissolved into the wort as possible. The grain is removed from the water and that water (now a wort) is then used to dissolve the extract for the boil.
http://howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13-2.html
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
Doesn't the Pap say to remove the grains when the boil commences? I always thought that was odd (unless I misread it).

I believe so, but there are a lot of 'methods' out there for steeping.

(1) put grain in cold water, heat to near boiling, remove grain.
(2) heat water to 150/160/170/whatever, add grain and steep grain for 30-60 min, remove.
(3) the combo: put grain into cold water, heat to 150/160/170/whatever, hold there for 30-60 minutes, remove.

-walker
 
El Pistolero said:
Where have you ever seen to steep grains at 170? :confused: Every reference I've ever seen says steep at ~150F.

Both my extract kit recipes from Morebeer said to steep until the temp hit 170.
 
HurricaneFloyd said:
Both my extract kit recipes from Morebeer said to steep until the temp hit 170.
Steeping until the temp hits 170 is way different than steeping for 30 minutes at 170.
 
Imperial Walker said:
(1) put grain in cold water, heat to near boiling, remove grain.
If we're all correct (and of course we are ;)), wouldn't this result in palpable tannin extraction? Or is the theory like that of decoctions, that the pH will be held low enough to avoid tannin extraction? Or is the amount of time too short?

????????
:tank:
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
If we're all correct (and of course we are ;)), wouldn't this result in palpable tannin extraction? Or is the theory like that of decoctions, that the pH will be held low enough to avoid tannin extraction? Or is the amount of time too short?

????????
:tank:

Yeah, this should extract tannins.

One of the F-ups I had with Pandora's Box was that I got the grains almost boiling because I wasn't paying attention and was talking to someone while steeping. There was a slight, yet noticable, tannin-ish aftertaste in the beer. It seemed to fade over time... or I just got used to it... one of the two.

If you are using ONLY dehusked roasted grains (like for a stout or porter), you should be fine since the source of tannins (husks) is not present, but for other grains, I would try to avoid temps that high.

-walker
 
I guess I opened up a can of worms :p. I guess I should have been a little more specific. I was trying to keep it general and within the original posts question about temps between 150-170. My intent was to show some distinction between mashing and steeping and that the 170 end pertained to steeping, not a mash saccrification rest. Had I added some personal experience to it, I could have said that I steeped at 160 for my brews, although I haven't done a steep in over 6 months. Anyways, you guys got the facts out there, which is a good thing. Better homebrew for all :).
 
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