What do we mean by BODY?

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Netflyer

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Hey guys/gals,

There have been some replies on another thread (paint_it_blacks) ESB thread and I have sort of taken the thread in a different direction so I thought I would post it as a new topic.

One of my current life obsessions is to brew the perfect ESB and I think Fullers hits the mark. One of the difficulties in making the clone is having the beer retain some sweet taste after all is said and done. I have seen things from corn sugar, mashed maize, carmelized sugar, etc etc. But all these seem to impart is a higher OG and of course a hotter brew but not necessarily a sweeter brew.

So I have been reading about mashing and see that you can increase the body if you mash at higher temps, like 158 instead of 154... and according to wiki brewing:

A high temperature conversion of 155-158 F will result in less starch conversion leaving a beer with more unfermentable dextrines. This will create a beer with a full body and flavor.

So, the question is will those unfermentable dextrines be sweet? Does body, thin or full have anything to do with sweetness?

Thanks for any insight!
 
Higher mash temps give more fermentables leaving the beer drier, lower mash temps give more unfermenatables leaving the beer sweeter and at a lower ABV.
Think more crisp vs sweet. Sweet will taste "heavier or thicker" than dry.
 
Don't you mean the opposite? Low temperatures give more fermentables, high less, no?

Quote:
The temperature of mash steps, particularly the main sugar conversion (called the saccrification step) can have a significant effect on the character of the beer. Lower temperature conversion - around 148-152 F will take longer but will produce a more complete conversion of complex starches to sugars resulting in more fermentation and a clean, lighter tasting beer. A high temperature conversion of 155-158 F will result in less starch conversion leaving a beer with more unfermentable dextrines. This will create a beer with a full body and flavor. Middle mash temperatures (153-156) will result in medium bodied beers.
 
IrregularPulse said:
Higher mash temps give more fermentables leaving the beer drier, lower mash temps give more unfermenatables leaving the beer sweeter and at a lower ABV.
Think more crisp vs sweet. Sweet will taste "heavier or thicker" than dry.
Click to expand...
That's backwards. Higher mash temps yield a less fermentable wort, lower mash temps yield a more fermentable wort. The unfermentable sugars have very little sweetness to them so they add body but not much sweetness. The sweetest sugars are the simplest ones (i.e. the fermentable ones).
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
. The unfermentable sugars have very little sweetness to them so they add body but not much sweetness.
Click to expand...

There ya go, that's the crux of the situation, so if by more body we don't mean 'sweet' what do we mean? What makes body? Complexity? Clarity? If not dry then... Wet ;p but not sweet?

I know all beer is a balance between malt and hops the sweet and the bitter, but even this isn't simply clear cut because some high gravity beers suck the bitter right out of a ton of hops. So it must have to do with the body.
 
My question is "body" over "mouthfeel" and are they the same? My porter turned out sweet(not dry) to the taste but still seemed a little thin. It was a little under-carbonated and seemed a little thin in consistency. I mashed at 154°.
Taste is great but is there a link between sweet/dryness and carbonation when it comes to body or mouthfeel? Am I even making sense?
 
Fuller's, although an excellent beer, isn't actually typical of most ESB's. If you want residual sweetness, you need to use crystal/caramel malts. Using a 10L or 20 will add in sweetness, and some caramel notes, with little colour impact. If you're going to style your beer after Fuller's, you can use some of the darker crystal malts, I would expect Fuller's to use 'British Crystal' which is in the 60L-80L range.
 
I am by no means an expert on this but here's my take on it.

I believe that body and mouthfeel are considered by judges to be similar if not the same thing (if there are any reading this, please chime in!).

If I were to differentiate this myself, I would say that the body of a beer specifically relates to the viscosity / density of the liquid.

Mouthfeel seems to be similar but would also relate to the texture (and possibly carbonation?) of the liquid in the mouth. For example, the oily feel of a stout versus a clean lager.

Can anyone out there cite any specific definitions?
 
I found more detailed discussion on Body in the BJCP Exam Study Guide:

Body
The body of a beer is characterized as its fullness, viscosity, or thickness on the tongue and palate; descriptors range from watery or characterless to satiating or thick. Body is a component of mouthfeel, which encompasses physical sensations such as astringency, alcoholic warmth and carbonation; the combination of all those components determines how the beer stimulates the palate. The body is determined by the levels of dextrins and medium-length proteins. Lack of dextrins is caused by low saccharification temperatures, excessive use of adjuncts or by highly attenuative yeast strains. A low protein level may be caused by excessively long protein rests, excessive fining or the addition of large amounts of fermentable sugars. Light body is appropriate in American light lagers and lambics, but not in strongly malt-accented styles such as barleywines, Scotch ales, and doppelbocks.
Click to expand...
 
Think of using malto-dextrene or carapils for adding some body, these are less fermentable sugar.
 
I'm struggling with this same issue. My beer is consistently thin.

I've only done 2 AG. both with low Steep temps low 150-152 temp. All my PM and Extracts including now my AG's... have the same thin mouth feel.

Hence my thoughts on water profile. With the variety of recipes I have done, and getting the same mouth feel... it's got to be my water.

Or at least I'm starting to think that way.... UG.

Oh well it's all been drinkable, if not the mouth feel I've wanted. And it's gotten better and better with each batch. Maybe a year from now, I'll have the process down and be able to tackle the water issue if I can't manage to fix the mouth feel with either brewing technique or recipe ingredients.

Cheers
:mug:
 
FxdGrMind said:
I'm struggling with this same issue. My beer is consistently thin.

I've only done 2 AG. both with low Steep temps low 150-152 temp. All my PM and Extracts including now my AG's... have the same thin mouth feel.
Click to expand...

Your problem is quite likely your low mash temp. Try mashing at 154-156 for more body.
 
To help clarify, mouthfeel describes all the sensations in the palate, which include things like the sensation of carbonation (or lack thereof), alcohol warming, astringence, body, etc.

Body is one component of mouthfeel. It refers to the thickness or viscosity of the beer in the mouth. Dextrins and other large sugars contribute most to mouthfeel, but other compounds such as proteins can as well.

While it is generally true that a sweet beer will have a lot of body, body does not necessarily equate with sweetness because some large sugars (e.g., maltodextrin) aren't particularly sweet to taste. However, it is generally accepted that a higher mash temp will increase the body and sweetness of the beer.

If you want to add sweetness to a recipe, crystal/caramel malts are a good choice (and they will also add some body). If you want to add body without a lot of sweetness, carapils or carafoam or other similar malts are a good choice, or extract brewers can add maltodextrin.

Hope that helps!
 
lieb2101 said:
BJCP Exam Study Guide
Body
..........The body is determined by the levels of dextrins and medium-length proteins. Lack of dextrins is caused by low saccharification temperatures, excessive use of adjuncts or by highly attenuative yeast strains. A low protein level may be caused by excessively long protein rests, excessive fining or the addition of large amounts of fermentable sugars. Light body is appropriate in American light lagers and lambics, but not in strongly malt-accented styles such as barleywines, Scotch ales, and doppelbocks.
Click to expand...

Everyone always talks about dextrins and body and always seem to ignore the role of proteins. I use a lot of Pilsner malt and I find a 20 min. protein rest provides a nice boost to the body of my beers. Notice that it says EXCESSIVELY long protein rests, not simply a protein rest. Not all protein rests are bad, Mmkay.
 
FlyGuy said:
To help clarify, mouthfeel describes all the sensations in the palate, which include things like the sensation of carbonation (or lack thereof), alcohol warming, astringence, body, etc.

Body is one component of mouthfeel. It refers to the thickness or viscosity of the beer in the mouth. Dextrins and other large sugars contribute most to mouthfeel, but other compounds such as proteins can as well.

While it is generally true that a sweet beer will have a lot of body, body does not necessarily equate with sweetness because some large sugars (e.g., maltodextrin) aren't particularly sweet to taste. However, it is generally accepted that a higher mash temp will increase the body and sweetness of the beer.

If you want to add sweetness to a recipe, crystal/caramel malts are a good choice (and they will also add some body). If you want to add body without a lot of sweetness, carapils or carafoam or other similar malts are a good choice, or extract brewers can add maltodextrin.

Hope that helps!
Click to expand...

Very nice description!
 

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