Black Pepper Belgian Rye

My buddy wants to brew a Belgian with black pepper- thought it would be nice with rye to reinforce the spicy quality, and some citrus notes. What do you guys think of this?

For 5.5 Gallons (partial mash):

4 lbs Light DME
2 lbs Rye Malt
2 lbs Rye Flakes
2 lbs American 2-row/6-row

.5 oz Pacific Jade @ 20M
1 tablespoon black pepper corns, 2 tsp grains of Paradise, crushed @ 10M
1 oz Pacific Jade @ 5M
Zest of two lemons @ Flameout

Yeast: Wyeast 3522, Belgian Ardennes

Target ABV: 5.5%
Target IBU's: 20

"Rye" flavor is most accurately described when eating traditional German pumperknickel bread, which is basically four ingredients: rye flour, rye berries, water and salt. I don't get the whole "spicy" concept with rye. It's more earthy and robust. Maybe spicy = robust for some people? Anyway, for that reason, a reinforcement of those flavors would result from ingredients like earthy European hops, a yeast that accentuates malt, dark malts and other rich-deep flavored cara malts... not black pepper and citrus.

Regarding the above malt bill,

I would do 30-50% pils DME, 20-30% pils, vienna (something other than 2 row), 10-15% rye malt, 0-5% flaked rye

Add some cara malts and anything else you deem necessary like biscuit malt, dark character malts, or whatever.

The hop bill needs a lot of work, though I'm not particularly good with the Belgian styles. Would use an earthy "spicy" low alpha European hop for this.

Styrian Goldings maybe?

Ding Ding Ding

So yeah, the black pepper and yeast I think are the main feature of this future brew. The rye mainly for a little more depth/complexity and "robustness" like you mentioned. I think the spicy descriptor is misleading as well, but it difficult to describe all of the flavors that make up beer! But I will consider elminating the citrus zest and I think maybe you are right about Pacific Jade being wrong for this brew (though it is described as having black pepper notes).

How about the spices? I dont want to whack you on the head with them, but I do think they should be detectable.

I'd say you have a bit too much Rye in there for depth/complexity. If that is what you are going for I'd say 10%. I just did a brew with almost 30% and it is super prominent.

Honestly, if I were trying this I would prefer to do a test batch without the spices to make sure I've got the recipe right and then brew it again and add stuff in. This would be especially useful if you have trouble identifying flavors in a beer.

Or maybe you could split the batch, drain off half into a carboy and then add spices to the other. Or just go with it... Just a few things to think about.

Its not that I have trouble identifying the flavors, its just that descriptors like "spicy" can be misleading I think.
With the spices I may just throw caution to the wind, so long as a tablespoon of black pepper and a couple of teaspoons or paradise grains seem like a reasonable amount. Anyone who has experimented with these spices care to weigh in?

Here's my stab at reformulating...

4 lbs Light DME/Pilsner DME
4 lbs Belgian Pils
1 lb Vienna (or Munich even maybe)
1 lb Rye Malt (or flaked rye, not sure yet)

(note, trying to keep the grain bill simple)

20M: .5 oz Styrian Goldings
10M: .5 oz Styrian Goldings + Spices
5M: 1 oz Styrian Goldings

Same Yeast.

Better?

Hey there- I'm brewing this tonight! Having second thoughts on the yeast though. Suggestions???

Well, here is my final recipe. You can see its a bit different from where I started. Unfortunately I decided to rely on my memory when I picked up the ingredients instead of my notes, bit of a kid in the candy store situation. So, guess we'll see what happens! I swear going forward I am going to try some vastly simpler recipes!

For 5.5 Gallons:

6 lbs Pils DME (50%)
2 lbs Belgian Pale Malt (17%)
1 lb Belgian Munich (8%)
1 lb Belgian Aromatic (8%)
1 lb CaraBelge (8%)
1 lb Flaked Rye (8%)

20M 1 oz Styrian Goldings
10M .5 oz Styrian Goldings
5M .5 oz Styrian Goldings

5M 1 oz coarsely cracked black peppercorns; 4 grams cracked grains of paradise

Yeast: Wyeast Trappist Blend (3789-PC)

Predicted OG: 1.078
Predicted FG: 1.019
Predicted ABV: 7.9%
Predicted IBU's: 14
Predicted SRM: 9

The brew itself went well though I did make the gaff of forgetting the hydrometer reading, doh! Too many homebrews. Fermentation is already kicked into highdrive though.

I did have a question regarding the yeast if anyone has used it. This is my first time using anything with Brett- how will this effect conditioning time? Am I going to have to wait a year before this is ready?

So, this one is still sitting in the fermenter. As its my first beer with Brett, I'm a little unsure as to when to bottle. Its coming up on two months now. Guess I will take a hydrometer reading soon, but what is the general time frame for something like this?

I just brewed a porter that I put 2 tsp of cracked black peppercorns in for 1 minute of the boil and after fermentation the pepper flavor is nowhere to be found. I'm not sure if it's there and the sweetness from the wlp002 is just stronger or what. I am currently debating either adding more pepper or switching to a different yeast strain for my next batch. If I added more pepper I could add more volume or boil longer, or both. Any thoughts? Pepper doesn't seem to be talked about much, so I was glad to find this thread.

I'll be tasting a sample and taking a hydrometer reading soon, so will update on whether the pepper is carrying through or if I need to add more. Keep you posted!

Okay. Pepper update. After 15 days in the bottle, it has carbonated and the pepper flavor is more apparent. Not dominating, but it's there. After having a few, I'm pretty sure I'm going to switch to a more neutral yeast strain and not mess with anything else.

Hydrometer clocked in at 1.010 so I bottled it! The sample had zero black pepper character, so I added some black pepper extract I made by soaking cracked peppercorns in some white rum. That should do the trick, hopefully I didn't over do it! Since the gravity was still a bit high for a beer with both Sacc and Brett, I cut the priming sugar down to only 40 grams. Hopefully that is enough to carbonate without getting bottle bombs. Eek!

Well- after letting it sit for a month in the bottles, I cracked one last night finally! Man, it is tasty! Still a little undercarbed. And funky. But goooood (going to be fantastic I'm pretty sure). Its dry, got a little banana still, but that is changing over as the brett works its magic. Now, getting that subtle leather/oakey quality that is interesting. Just a hint of tartness (or maybe its just that it is so dry). The black pepper is there and goes really well with the funk and grainy flavors, you can taste it, but its not overpowering or too spicy. I think I'm going to let the rest of the batch sit for another couple of months before sampling again. Looking forward to seeing how this one develops!

Also, I wanted to mention the black pepper addition- I soaked aproximately 1/2 oz of coarsely cracked black peppercorns in about 3 oz of white rum (nothing fancy) for several weeks- enough to darken up the tincture. This was added to the bucket at bottling time. Again, getting the flavor but it is not spicy. I think I'm going to experiment further- could be a tasty addition to a wit perhaps?

Thanks for the update. 1/2 oz pepper to 3 oz rum. I'm going to write that down for future reference. It may be a while though, my porter recipes have not been so good.

This beer is really coming along! I cracked another last night. Banana is fading though still too much for my liking in this particular beer. There is an initial sweetness (fruitiness?) with a long dry finish followed by the black pepper/rye spiciness. Tobacco/leather/funk is just a hint in the background at the moment. Probably will wait another month to sample another- really enjoying watching this one evolve!