Black Pepper, Lemon, Rye Gose Thoughts?

[TheMadKing]

So I wanted to see what people think of this recipe, and to see if anyone has used Pacific Jade hops before. It's description says it has lemon and black pepper flavors, but I'm always cautious when using "like" flavors since they can clash if they are similar but not complimentary.

Opinions welcome!

OG 1.045
FG 1.009
ABV 4.7%
SRM 3.7
IBU 9.7

4 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)
4 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM)
1 lbs Rye Malt (4.7 SRM)

Mash at 150 for 60 minutes, run off to boil kettle and heat to 180. Chill to 120 and pitch a lactobacillus starter. Kettle sour to a pH of 3.5 and continue with the boil.

0.75 oz Salt (Boil 60.0 mins)
0.25 oz Pacific Jade [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min
2.00 oz Lemon Zest (Boil) 0 min
1.00 oz Black Pepper (Boil) 0 min
0.50 oz Pacific Jade [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min, 160.0 F
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml]

 

[TheMadKing]

Nobody has used Pacific Jade?

 

[TheMadKing]

Ok new question

What if I subbed out the US-05 for a spicy saison yeast (but not too phenolic because I hate that flavor), and made this a sour saison instead?

I have traditionally not enjoyed saisons, but I've had a few recent good experiences that have opened my mind. I have never brewed on so yeast suggestions would be appreciated. I would like to target a flavor profile that accentuates the lemon/spicy character but downplays the phenol/ester character

 

[Northern_Brewer]

On pepper and related spices, this may be useful : https://beerandbrewing.com/a-dash-of-pepper/

Something like T-58 might work if you're wanting "a bit Belgian"? Or maybe something like WLP320/1010?

 

[TheMadKing]

On pepper and related spices, this may be useful : https://beerandbrewing.com/a-dash-of-pepper/

Something like T-58 might work if you're wanting "a bit Belgian"? Or maybe something like WLP320/1010?

Great article thanks! Based on others' use of pepper here on HBT it sounds like they might be exaggerating the potency of the flavor. I've seen up to 2 oz used, and two threads said that 2 tsp yielded no pepper flavor at all.

Those are all weizen yeasts which will throw the flavors I'm specifically looking to avoid. I don't enjoy hefeweizens, dunkelweizens, belgian wits, or really any belgian beers. I have only found a couple saisons that I like and they were fairly neutral with just a hint of spiciness from the yeast but no real clove character (that's the specific flavor I dislike)

I was looking at something like WY3711 since it is described as being citrusy and peppery and accentuates the use of spices

 

[Northern_Brewer]

A lot will obviously depend on the quality and freshness of your pepper. But it also depends critically on when you add it. A lot of the most appealing parts of pepper's flavour comes from those same terpenols found in hops, which boil off above whirlpool-ish temperatures. So you'll need a lot more if you're boiling your pepper for 10 minutes compared to a whirlpool addition.

I deliberately suggested American hefe yeasts which are way less interesting/offensive than European ones. And T-58 isn't a hefe yeast, it's a weird relative of Windsor/S-33 that is definitely more pepper than clove, it's pretty mild.

All of them would contribute less than a saison yeast like 3711.

 

[TheMadKing]

A lot will obviously depend on the quality and freshness of your pepper. But it also depends critically on when you add it. A lot of the most appealing parts of pepper's flavour comes from those same terpenols found in hops, which boil off above whirlpool-ish temperatures. So you'll need a lot more if you're boiling your pepper for 10 minutes compared to a whirlpool addition.

I deliberately suggested American hefe yeasts which are way less interesting/offensive than European ones. And T-58 isn't a hefe yeast, it's a weird relative of Windsor/S-33 that is definitely more pepper than clove, it's pretty mild.

All of them would contribute less than a saison yeast like 3711.

The T-58 sounds interesting then, thanks!

Edit:
On second inspection, theres an extensive thread on T-58 here and many people are reporting either intense banana/bubblegum if fermented warm and strong clove/belgian character when fermented cold, with only a few reports of black pepper - this sounds like the dead opposite of what I want. If I can smell a beer and say "it's a belgian" then it's not something I'm going to like.

I think I need to focus on a neutral saison yeast (probably French not Belgian) that has just a hint of complex spice, but no dominant yeast character at all.

So maybe that WLP590 would be a good choice

 

[Albionwood]

I think I need to focus on a neutral saison yeast (probably French not Belgian) that has just a hint of complex spice, but no dominant yeast character at all.

Mangrove Jack's M29 "French Saison" might be worth a try. I have found it to produce spicy and peppery notes but little phenol (to my taste anyway). Of course a lot depends on fermentation temps, especially with these yeasts; I don't generally let it get too warm.

Danstar "Belle Saison" is similar, maybe even closer to what you're looking for - the one time I used it, I got less saison character than I am used to from M29.

 

[TheMadKing]

Mangrove Jack's M29 "French Saison" might be worth a try. I have found it to produce spicy and peppery notes but little phenol (to my taste anyway). Of course a lot depends on fermentation temps, especially with these yeasts; I don't generally let it get too warm.

Danstar "Belle Saison" is similar, maybe even closer to what you're looking for - the one time I used it, I got less saison character than I am used to from M29.

Thanks! I hadn't looked at any mangrove jack strains

 

[TheMadKing]

So I just tried a Boulevard Tank 7 American Saison and really enjoyed the yeast character in it.. Anyone know what yeast they use?

 

[deadwolfbones]

So I just tried a Boulevard Tank 7 American Saison and really enjoyed the yeast character in it.. Anyone know what yeast they use?

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/boulevard-brewing-co-tank-7/

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=13510.msg295857#msg295857

https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewin...subsitute_for_boulevard_house_yeast_for_tank/

 

[TheMadKing]

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/boulevard-brewing-co-tank-7/

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=13510.msg295857#msg295857

https://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewin...subsitute_for_boulevard_house_yeast_for_tank/

I found that reddit link but the other two are great, thanks!

TBH I'm a little intimidated by the idea of reyeasting a beer at bottling and I'd prefer to come up with a simpler recipe that's still good on the first go-round.

Brett intrigues me though. I love Brett character and I have a Brett cyser that I'm going to bottle and give away as Christmas presents this year.. Absolutely fantastic flavor

 

[deadwolfbones]

The only reason they re-yeast Tank 7 is because they put it through a centrifuge. You wouldn't need to do that on a homebrew scale.

As for Brett, I dosed one saison I made at bottling with a few drops of Brett Brux per bottle (using an eye dropper). After a year it was sublime. The beer finished at 1.001 and still developed tons of Brett flavor in the bottle. Worth a try!

 

[TheMadKing]

The only reason they re-yeast Tank 7 is because they put it through a centrifuge. You wouldn't need to do that on a homebrew scale.

As for Brett, I dosed one saison I made at bottling with a few drops of Brett Brux per bottle (using an eye dropper). After a year it was sublime. The beer finished at 1.001 and still developed tons of Brett flavor in the bottle. Worth a try!

Awesome thanks!

The article made it sound like they used a different yeast at bottling as a flavor contribution

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That's not been my experience of T-58, it's pretty mild in my experience (fermenting in golden ales around 18°C) and not clovey at all. Ester production is about the same as its cousin S-33/Windsor.

Mangrove Jack don't make any yeast themselves, they repack other people's, you may find that their French Saison is rather "beautiful"....

 

[Albionwood]

That's not been my experience of T-58, it's pretty mild in my experience (fermenting in golden ales around 18°C) and not clovey at all. Ester production is about the same as its cousin S-33/Windsor.

Mangrove Jack don't make any yeast themselves, they repack other people's, you may find that their French Saison is rather "beautiful"....

Definitely agree about T-58, I stopped using it because it isn't Belgian enough for me. Keep the temp under control and you shouldn't get any clove or phenol.

I didn't know that about MJ. Can you fill in the missing bits in the equivalence table?

 

[TheMadKing]

That's not been my experience of T-58, it's pretty mild in my experience (fermenting in golden ales around 18°C) and not clovey at all. Ester production is about the same as its cousin S-33/Windsor.

Mangrove Jack don't make any yeast themselves, they repack other people's, you may find that their French Saison is rather "beautiful"....

Now that I didn't know! Doesn't mangrove jack have more strains available than any other dry yeast company?

 

[TheMadKing]

Safbrew T-58
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/Safbrew-T-58.160245/

Here's the thread I was talking about

Many people reported black pepper but the most common reports were banana, bubblegum, and clove

 

[Northern_Brewer]

And it seems to be pretty split between "not much" and "quite Belgiany". I wonder how many of the latter you would be left with if you omitted those fermenting hot and/or using grists rich in ferulic acid?

All I can say is that with 100% Maris Otter, fermented at 18C-ish, I didn''t get any clove.

 

[Coffeeturnal]

And it seems to be pretty split between "not much" and "quite Belgiany". I wonder how many of the latter you would be left with if you omitted those fermenting hot and/or using grists rich in ferulic acid?

All I can say is that with 100% Maris Otter, fermented at 18C-ish, I didn''t get any clove.

It's definitely a function of temperature. Low 60s it seems pretty clean. But as soon as you get closer to room temperature it gets extremely Belgian... With bubblegum being the dominant flavor in my experience. That faded after a few months.
Definitely wouldn't recommend it if you lack temperature control. That's why I'm not going to revisit it other than maybe in the winter.

 

[TheMadKing]

It's definitely a function of temperature. Low 60s it seems pretty clean. But as soon as you get closer to room temperature it gets extremely Belgian... With bubblegum being the dominant flavor in my experience. That faded after a few months.
Definitely wouldn't recommend it if you lack temperature control. That's why I'm not going to revisit it other than maybe in the winter.

I have very good temp control so that's not an issue. Screw it!

You've convinced me @Northern_Brewer I'll give it a shot - Next question though

Will the low pH from the kettle sour cause it to throw extra flavor by stressing the yeast?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Interesting question- dunno, not done that myself. Wouldn’t have thought it would be a big problem- but the yeast will have the final say!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Will the low pH from the kettle sour cause it to throw extra flavor by stressing the yeast?

On the contrary, low pH greatly suppresses yeast expression.

 

[TheMadKing]

On the contrary, low pH greatly suppresses yeast expression.

Now that is interesting! Do you have a literature reference I can learn more about that from?

I was chatting with the head brewer of a local brewery about pH recently and he flat out stated that he does nothing to control pH. Most of his mashes are in the 5.8 range and most of his finished beers are 5.2ish...

They make good beer sometimes, but usually all of their IPA's have a lingering harsh bitterness and they specialize in Belgians but all their Belgians taste like overwhelming bubblegum. I know they control temperature very well, but now I'm betting high pH is throwing off their yeast expression

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do you have a literature reference I can learn more about that from?

Milk the Funk, lots of anecdotes on forums, personal experience.

I was chatting with the head brewer of a local brewery about pH recently and he flat out stated that he does nothing to control pH. Most of his mashes are in the 5.8 range and most of his finished beers are 5.2ish...

I'm talking about sour beer. The yeast expression is obviously muted when you pre-sour.
I imagine variability in the more normal range also has an effect on esters, but more subtle.

They make good beer sometimes, but usually all of their IPA's have a lingering harsh bitterness and they specialize in Belgians but all their Belgians taste like overwhelming bubblegum. I know they control temperature very well, but now I'm betting high pH is throwing off their yeast expression

I think I can often tell when breweries don't adjust their water or mash pH. The beer tastes muddy and harsh across the board. Or maybe there's another reason, not sure.

Cheers

 

[TheMadKing]

Update on this recipe,

It actually turned out pretty good. It's very earthy and peppery on the nose but the cucumber dominates the flavor with a nice refreshing lactic tartness.

I would brew this again, but perhaps with an even more expressive yeast than T58. Any yeast character is being lost in the other flavors. The lemon is also not great in it, so I would cut that out entirely.

 

[Albionwood]

It's very earthy and peppery on the nose but the cucumber dominates the flavor with a nice refreshing lactic tartness.

Cucumber?

 

[TheMadKing]

Cucumber?

Ha! My bad! I guess I never updated the recipe. I decided to add cucumber puree to the whirlpool and it ended up dominating the flavors

I was told at a club meeting last night that it tastes like refrigerator pickles, so that's what I'm calling it.

Mom's Refrigerator Pickles Gose

 

[Albionwood]

Yeah, I tried that once, too.