Yeast Washing Illustrated

I've been trying to find out the same thing Piotr. For example, if you let a 'thick slurry' settle...how much of a yeast cake would you have and how much liquid above it? It's easy to eyeball the approx. volume of that yeast cake in the jar...would be nice to know how many billions of yeast cells per mL of yeast cake there are (not a slurry...the cake itself).

EDIT: I would think it's safe to say our yeast cake is at least as 'thick' as a thick slurry...right? It can't get much thicker than that unless you dried it out. So maybe figure the lower limit as 5 billion cells per mL of cake? Then the viable yeast cell count is a percentage of that.

One thing I've found that's helpful is to pour the slurry from the original fermenter into the second, smaller container and let it settle overnight. Then decant that...then shake it up and let it settle for 30 minutes and then pour into the jars. I get about 3x-4x more of a yeast cake in each jar that way. Maybe I was adding too much extra water (only 2 qt. plus the jar contents...and my 'smaller secondary container' is only 2 qt.) but I always ended up with a nice slurry leftover (after filling the jars) that I hated dumping down the drain. This just lets you concentrate the slurry before you put it in the jars.

I am gratefull for your post, I will give it a go and keep record.

these figures are actually possible to estimate prettty accurately. Once your jars have settled thoroughly you know very closely the amount of slurry you have in ml. The jars are scored with with mls right?

(BTW the yeast cake in the decanted jar IS the slurry.)

A refrigerated slurry that have very clear beer-looking stuff on top is very thick. Then, you can look at the layers if the slurry itself. The white layer on top is probably 90 % yeast. The darker lower layer is 10% yeast. so just take an educated guess of the % of yeast for the entire amount of slurry. It is interesting how these ratios change from batch to batch. I have harvested yeast that ranges from 80 % down to 30 %.

You should be pretty close. Close enough for our purposes anyway. Then it becomes surprising how quickly we get to proper pitching amounts.

dontman said:

A refrigerated slurry that have very clear beer-looking stuff on top is very thick. Then, you can look at the layers if the slurry itself. The white layer on top is probably 90 % yeast. The darker lower layer is 10% yeast. so just take an educated guess of the % of yeast for the entire amount of slurry. It is interesting how these ratios change from batch to batch. I have harvested yeast that ranges from 80 % down to 30 %.

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Actually, your post made things even more complicated for me. I taught, that we wash the slurry from one mason jar to another until we get rid of all trub and dead yeast, and the result is 100% clean yeast. My only concern was how thick it was...

Let's try to figure it out in other way:
How many ml of washed slurry do you pitch in an average ale 1.050? How many in lager ?

I got half trub and half yeast on my first wash (but it's a nice, thick cake...at least 30mL of white cake). My second wash had no trub...but a tiny 5mL yeast cake in each jar. I've finally got it dialed in such that I get no trub (that I can see) and a nice, thick ~50mL cake in each jar.

However as dontman mentioned...that varies from batch to batch. Like I said earlier...now I decant the liquid in the fermenter (i.e. the cake plus added boiled/chilled water) into the secondary container and let it settle overnight...then I decant that (to drain)...shake it up really well and let it settle 30 minutes...then into the jars. There is the tan bottom layer in the secondary container but it all stays there...just clean yeast slurry in the jars.

So from dontman's post it looks like I can just use the 4.5 billion cells per mL number (i.e. the 'thick slurry' number)...which means my 50mL cakes are almost a perfect typical pitch in terms of number (not viability...a whole nuther estimation).

EDIT: thanks dontman.

SpanishCastleAle said:

which means my 50mL cakes are almost a perfect typical pitch in terms of number (not viability...a whole nuther estimation).

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this is what I realized too when I started washing my yeast - that my jars contained pretty much the exact amount of slurry that Mr. Malty recommends on standard size beers and that I would not need the extra step of doing a starter from washed yeast.

Now on <1.060 ales I just take the jar out of the fridge on brew morning and let it warm up to room temp and it is ready to pitch when my wort is.

On really big non-belgians and lagers I still do a starter.

But on big Belgians I don't because I want the yeast to work a little when it gets into the wort. This creates more esters. which is desirable in a Belgian.

Is there any reason not to just sanitize the jars and instruments in starsan rather then boiling all of them? I understand you should use deoxygenated water and that's why you boil it. But I'll need to use plastic for the larger jug so I'll starsan it. Will it kill the yeast in it or something?

Nah, Star-San acts like yeast nutrient once the pH changes out of it's sanitizing role. Here's a write-up I did that has some information on Star-San for you. It is some awesome stuff, and they are an awesome company.

Great article, washed my first batch of yeast from my primary. Looks close to the pics so far, only been in the fridge 10 hours.

Big Thanks

Has anyone thought about using one of those fat seperators used for gravy to drain trub off the bottom and leave the good stuff in the container?

Amazon.com: Oxo Good Grips Fat Separator, 4-Cup: Kitchen & Dining

I racked my mild today and harvested the yeast. My method: racked the beer, added 2 liters of sterile water, stirred up all the yeast/trub and poured it back into the liter jars. This is my normal practice, I will chill that overnight and usually see three distinct layers: beer on top, yeast, then trub on the bottom. The next morning I will pour the yeast layer into another jar. The yeast is usually noticeable because it is creamy white.

So this time the colors are throwing me.


This has only been in the fridge for a couple hours, but what do you think? Is the white on the bottom yeast or trub? Is the dark stuff yeast? This is wyeast 1968, it tends to be very chunky.

I'm just getting back into this now. I've got my sanitized mason jars cooling now and hope to get to move something out of my primary and save the California Ale I used.

I recently started listening to Jamil's podcasts and one of the things that I remember was him talk about cell count and what not. If I divide a "harvest" of 1 vial into 5 mason jars, how many do I really need to pitch for a ~1.050? I mean, I know MrMalty has it's calculations, but how do I REALLY know how viable my yeast is? I'm midway through making my stirplate, so I can run a starter on it when I'm ready to brew with again (probably next week). From what I understood from Jamil, he seemed to say that you couldn't just divide a yeast vile in half (if you were making a 2.5 gallon batch), so why would I be able to divide a spent 5 gallon harvest into 5 separate viable pitches?

Sorry, I'm rambling....

Beerrific said:

So this time the colors are throwing me.

This has only been in the fridge for a couple hours, but what do you think? Is the white on the bottom yeast or trub? Is the dark stuff yeast? This is wyeast 1968, it tends to be very chunky.

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I'm stumped by that too. I would still venture the opinion that the yeast is lighter in weight than the trub so it will be the ultimate top layer of sediment.

janzik said:

I'm just getting back into this now. I've got my sanitized mason jars cooling now and hope to get to move something out of my primary and save the California Ale I used.

I recently started listening to Jamil's podcasts and one of the things that I remember was him talk about cell count and what not. If I divide a "harvest" of 1 vial into 5 mason jars, how many do I really need to pitch for a ~1.050? I mean, I know MrMalty has it's calculations, but how do I REALLY know how viable my yeast is? I'm midway through making my stirplate, so I can run a starter on it when I'm ready to brew with again (probably next week). From what I understood from Jamil, he seemed to say that you couldn't just divide a yeast vile in half (if you were making a 2.5 gallon batch), so why would I be able to divide a spent 5 gallon harvest into 5 separate viable pitches?

Sorry, I'm rambling....

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I think there is some serious confusion here. No you cannot take a "vial" of White Labs yeast and split it into multiple vials. There is too small a quantity of cells. Probably well less than 100 billion. Even a single step starter will just get you into pitchable territory.

OTOH a full yeast cake from a 5 gallon batch will have yeast cells in the trillions. This can easily be split into multiple mason jars with plenty enough yeast in each jar for a pitch.

Also you don't know exactly how viable a commercial vial is. The cells will begin dying over time. This is ultimately the best reason for soing a starter.

A fresh cake, once washed, will have nearly 100% viability since the yeast is so fresh.

dontman said:

OTOH a full yeast cake from a 5 gallon batch will have yeast cells in the trillions. This can easily be split into multiple mason jars with plenty enough yeast in each jar for a pitch.

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Thanks, that's what I was looking to hear.

Is there any hard and fast time frame for how long the yeast cake is good for? I have a 2 week primary going, just because I haven't had the chance to setup my mason jars. I'll probably wash the cake tonight...

Ok so you can split the yeast cake from a 5 gallon carboy into 5 jars. And you can put your wort right on top of the whole cake. Wouldn't that be too much yeast? What could happen if overpitching?

You can split that into several jars if you would like. I personally use old relish jars and will wash about 4 different jars of yeast from my primary. I never use it all and believe I could probably get close to 8-10 jars if I tried. No need for me though, don't brew enough and would be throwing out a lot of yeast.

rsmith179 said:

You can split that into several jars if you would like. I personally use old relish jars and will wash about 4 different jars of yeast from my primary. I never use it all and believe I could probably get close to 8-10 jars if I tried. No need for me though, don't brew enough and would be throwing out a lot of yeast.

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Yeah, I do throw out a lot of yeast. With ech 5 G batch I make I separate out 2 pint jars of slurry. I start with adding 1 1/2 qts of boiled water to the cake, swirling to incorporate the bottom cak without disturbing the the crap at the top of the carboy. Let that rest for 20 minutes, pour into the 2 quart jar. Let that rest for 20 and then fill two pint mason jars with creamy white liquid. Done. Throw out the rest.

As it is I have 12 pints in my fridge. The wife is not too thrilled.

dontman said:

I'm stumped by that too. I would still venture the opinion that the yeast is lighter in weight than the trub so it will be the ultimate top layer of sediment.

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I think I have decided that the bottom layer was yeast. I think that in this case since this is such a flocculant yeast, it fell out first. After it sat a while it was pretty evident that it was yeast, it all stuck together but all the brown stuff on the top does not.

I've got 5 mason jars in the fridge now. What I'd like to do is decant off the extra liquid and move the remaining slurry into vials on a rack, to save space. I could reuse some of my commercial vials, but I would like to get a dozen or two that I can keep on a rack in the fridge.

Got a question. Following the OP directions, he says dump the jars on top of the slurry. Does he mean only the pints jars or the pint jars and the larger jar for extra water?

I dumped my pint jars and the 2 qt jar and I think I over washed my yeast. I only have a small layer of yeast at the bottom of my pint jars. By small, I mean like 1/8 -1/16 of an inch. Is this enough if I make a starter?

I guess I could decant 3 of them and us them all for the starter, that should work.

Beerrific said:

So this time the colors are throwing me.

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I'll take pics of mine later, but mine looks like mostly the darker stuff (trub, I'm assuming) with some light swirling of the lighter stuff (the yeast?) mixed in, but not settled.

I've had my mason jars sitting in the fridge for a couple of days now and there is no real change in the separation. I suppose I can't get real advice until I show the pics, but would it be ok to pitch this yeast (after making a starter, of course)? What I will be using it for will either be a repeat batch or something in the same style.

The first 2 harvests I did, ages ago, didn't come out like this. So I was surprised that it didn't separate.

Here is what I have now (5 of these)



My first attempt, months ago, looked like this...



As you can tell, I have a lot more junk in the latest batch. Any thoughts on actually using this new batch? Or is it too gunked up with trub?

do you siphon the yeast from the big jar to the smaller jars, and if so, what do you siphon it with?

blackwaterbrewer said:

do you siphon the yeast from the big jar to the smaller jars, and if so, what do you siphon it with?

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No, you decant (pour slowly) since you want to leave the bottom layer of trub.

I would say nice work, but it seems that everyone already did that! and rightfully so. Any good methods for making a yeast starter? Ive searched this site, and did not find any straight forward methods. Thanks again for this awsome thread. its gonna save so much dough. Thanks in advance

Finally, a pictured guide. Been brewin' a long time, but it's still nice to have some visual aids!! Prost this thread!!!! Thanx my friend!!!

TGreen588 said:

I would say nice work, but it seems that everyone already did that! and rightfully so. Any good methods for making a yeast starter? Ive searched this site, and did not find any straight forward methods. Thanks again for this awesome thread. its gonna save so much dough. Thanks in advance

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It's quite simple, you're basically making a small beer. Add 4oz dry malt extract or 5oz liquid malt extract per 1qt of water, boil for at least 15mins, cool to under 80F, and pitch your yeast in. Let it ferment for 2-3 days if you don't have a stirplate. If you do have a stirplate, 1-2 days is usually plenty in my experience.

Shameless bump so I can get an opinion on the pic of my latest harvest...

But here's a question to go with it...

When decanting off the top watered down beer from the harvest, should I then rewash it again (and again, if needed) to get the watered down portion as clear as possible, so there's the least chance of any off flavors from using this in a starter? Or do you decant it all off anyway, and then just pitch your starter right on to the yeast cake in the mason jar?

FWIW, I just did the first wash of a brew that used Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils yeast and it did what Beerific's pic shows (trub on top...yeast on bottom). After letting the 2 qt. bottle sit overnight the yeast/trub are pretty clearly seperated...but with the yeast on the bottom. When I harvested the Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager yeast and the White Labs WLP820 Oktoberfest/Marzen yeast neither did this (neither even had hardly any trub in the 2 qt. container because it was so easy to pour nothing but yeast slurry off the top).

I'm hoping the the trub stays reasonably loose and the yeast packs down tight so I can get the trub off the yeast. IIRC this yeast made tight chunks when I made the starter.

I just washed my first yeast cake (some bottle harvested yeast from Sweetwater Brewing's IPA). It looks almost identical to Beerific's above, with the white creamy layer below a darker layer. I similarly have the impression that that layer is the yeast. It is very flocculant.

Now, my real question is, how cold does the washed yeast need to be stored at? SWMBO sure would appreciate it if I didn't have to keep it in the fridge & the keezer has room. However, often the keezer is set for ale serving temperature (50F in my house). Is this going to be too warm to store washed yeast?

Has anyone tried using one of the mason jars of washed yeast directly in a batch without using a starter? Is it too risky, given that the yeast might be a non-starter, or is the cell count simply too small?

Just curious! Thanks for the thread, I've learned lots!


Jay

You could do it but depending on how much yeast is in the jar you might be underpitching. I haven't pitched straight from a washed jar but I have washed a yeast cake and harvested several jars...then pitched the leftover. And that leftover yeast sat in a 2 qt. container in the fridge for a few days before I pitched it (I've done this several times). It took off fast and fermented clean each time.

I'm way late to the party but this is a really great thread. Usually when I'm done racking a batch, I've got a good half inch to an inch of beer left on the bottom of my carboy. When using this process, should I try and get rid of that as well before dropping in santized water (ie only mix water with the fallout)? Or is it OK/advisable to keep that thin layer of liquid in the carboy before mixing with water? Thanks for the help!

I pitched a jar of washed k97 the other day without a starter. I am new to washing and I wanted to see what happened. This was a real light Wheat beer ~1.045. It took about a day, but it was going fine after that. I just transfered it to secondary last night and it tasted good, little sweet. I did not check the gravity though, I was in a hurry.

I would suggest a starter though, it is a nice way to verify the yeast is healthy and not contaminated.

I just posted my own yeast washing experience with pictures. A poster thought it might be helpful to post a couple of my pictures here, so here I am

This is what it looked like after I had added the water to my fermenter, swirled and let it sit for the 20 minutes. I put it on its side to make pouring off easier (note the towel underneath to keep it from rolling. I'm not going to be responsible for a sudden rash of glass fermenters rolling off counters to their doom). There was a definite delineation between the trub and yeast.



And after I poured off the top part into the 1/2-gallon growler and let that sit for 20 minutes. Again, a clear layer of trub, but a much smaller percentage this time.



-Joe

ReSULT!



-Joe

captainjay said:

Has anyone tried using one of the mason jars of washed yeast directly in a batch without using a starter? Is it too risky, given that the yeast might be a non-starter, or is the cell count simply too small?

Just curious! Thanks for the thread, I've learned lots!


Jay

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I do this everytime I use washed yeast. The way I package it (with about 6-7 oz of 80% density slurry) I have 4-6 times the cell count of the original WL Tube which is fine for direct pitch.

And considering the fact that the yeast just finished fermenting a batch of beer successfully then how can there be even a miniscule chance that it is not viable? There is no better evidence that it is alive and well.

Jump make sure to pitch it at the same temp as the wort so you don't shock it.

I made a starter Thursday night with a pint of Wyeast 3056 Bavarian Hefe that has been in the fridge since last April - almost a year. I made my starter wort and let the pint come to room temp, pitched and sealed two one liter bottles and this morning they were both swirling and bubbling. I wasn't sure if it would stay viable for that long but it did and came to activity with no problem. Sweet!! Making El Jefe Weizen tonight.

Good to know CC. I have not gone over 6 months with a yeast yet but it could easily happen.

I should have added to my other post that that was assuming the yeast is less than a few months old. I follow Mr Malty, if it tells me I need more slurry than I have based on quantity and age I do a starter.

Just finished listening to the latest Brew Strong episode on repitching yeast; I'm curious if true washing (acidified solution) is practical at the homebrewing level.

Thoughts?
Technique?

flyangler18 said:

Just finished listening to the latest Brew Strong episode on repitching yeast; I'm curious if true washing (acidified solution) is practical at the homebrewing level.

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Yes, it can be.
But whenever I can I try to widespread the technique of washing yeast with ClO2, not acid, that's what I'm doing all the time. This technique has many advantages:

BSI - yeast care
http://www.birkocorp.com/brewing/yeast.asp